Pitch, Roll, and Yaw

I am no expert in surfboard desing concepts, but after reading about Greg Loher’s Theory of Balance, reading about fluid dynamics relative to bodies (lift, and drag), and making and riding various different surfboards with different planshapes, rails, bottom contours and fins I have come upon the concepts of pitch, roll and yaw.

Thinking about the various sufboard design elements in terms of how they affect how the rider can manipulate the pitch, roll and yaw of a surfboard for the various surfing manuvers has been enlightening.

Once you understand the concpetual framework the complexity of how the various design elements interact becomes much more simple and easy to understand.

Pitch, roll and yaw are concepts that describe the three axis’ on which the board can be turned.

It seems that a lot of surfboard design elements/variables are ways to affect how the surfer can manipulate the the pitch, roll and yaw of the surfboard.

For example:

A wider tail is more difficult to pitch and roll.

It will be easier to change the pitch of a board with a swallow tail relative to the same board with a square tail.

A board with a down rail will be harder to roll than one with an up rail.

Vee is easier to pitch and roll, while concave is more difficult to pitch and roll.

More rocker is easier to pitch and roll.

Fin toe influences yaw, while cant influences roll.

Fin foil influences yaw and roll.

In my experience surfing a thruster is mostly about affecting pitch, while surfing a quad is more about affecting roll, and single fins are about affecting yaw.

Maybe I am wrong, but these concepts of of pitch, roll and yaw give a good conceptual framework for understanding how the different elements of surfboard design affect the ride of a particular design.

What do you think?

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I am no expert in surfboard desing concepts, but after reading about Greg Loher’s Theory of Balance, reading about fluid dynamics relative to bodies (lift, and drag), and making and riding various different surfboards with different planshapes, rails, bottom contours and fins I have come upon the concepts of pitch, roll and yaw.

Thinking about the various sufboard design elements in terms of how they affect how the rider can manipulate the pitch, roll and yaw of a surfboard for the various surfing manuvers has been enlightening.

Once you understand the concpetual framework the complexity of how the various design elements interact becomes much more simple and easy to understand.

Pitch, roll and yaw are concepts that describe the three axis’ on which the board can be turned.

It seems that a lot of surfboard design elements/variables are ways to affect how the surfer can manipulate the the pitch, roll and yaw of the surfboard.

For example:

A wider tail is more difficult to pitch and roll.

It will be easier to change the pitch of a board with a swallow tail relative to the same board with a square tail.

A board with a down rail will be harder to roll than one with an up rail.

Vee is easier to pitch and roll, while concave is more difficult to pitch and roll.

More rocker is easier to pitch and roll.

Fin toe influences yaw, while cant influences roll.

Fin foil influences yaw and roll.

In my experience surfing a thruster is mostly about affecting pitch, while surfing a quad is more about affecting roll, and single fins are about affecting yaw.

Maybe I am wrong, but these concepts of of pitch, roll and yaw give a good conceptual framework for understanding how the different elements of surfboard design affect the ride of a particular design.

What do you think?

I think you missed a few.

Your surfboard is in constant motion. Each movement-roll, pitch, heave, yaw, or sway-is a response to wave action.

Roll

is a side-to-side rotation about a fore-and-aft axis (usually near the waterline). A hull design makes a difficult SUP to learn on due to too much roll

Pitch

is the up-and-down motion of the front and back around the surfboards center of flotation

Heave

is the up-and-down motion of the entire surfboard, a lifting and dropping in response to wave lifting and then taking the drop.

Pounding

is the jarring outcome of pitching, a result of flat areas in the surfboards bottom surface impacting with water.

Sway

is a side-to-side movement in which wave action moves the surfboard to either side of the projected line. The heavier the board and the more underbody/fin area, the less tendency to sway.

Yaw

is a back-and-forth weaving in the surfboards projected course in response to waves. Boards with high fin area and stability tend to yaw less.

Lateral plane

is the underwater profile’s area. A board with minimum lateral plane (IE a gun shape) will move rapidly. A board with generous lateral plane will be slower

Moments of inertia,

defined as side-to-side (roll) and fore-and-aft (pitch), are measures of how far weights are from the boards center of gravity. A board with a low moment of inertia will pitch less but more quickly; a board with a high moment of inertia will pitch more slowly but more deeply.

The only force though that you need to be concerned about is drag.

You also forgot DREGING parts a and B

Part A: the force of the board and it’s ability to moving backwards as it tows you under water.

Part B: the ability of a normally boyant board to defy the law of floatation and sandwich you between the bottom and the board.

I think you bring up a good point.

I was considering the changes that the surfer makes to the board. But it is silly not to consider the effects that the wave/water moving has on the board/rider, like heave and sway.

Thanks.

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I think you missed a few.

Pitch

is the up-and-down motion of the front and back around the surfboards center of flotation

Heave

is the up-and-down motion of the entire surfboard, a lifting and dropping in response to wave lifting and then taking the drop.

Pounding

is the jarring outcome of pitching, a result of flat areas in the surfboards bottom surface impacting with water.

I think first comes the pitch, then the pounding, followed by the heave as you pull yourself up onto dry sand.

very funny!!!

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I think you bring up a good point.

I was considering the changes that the surfer makes to the board. But it is silly not to consider the effects that the wave/water moving has on the board/rider, like heave and sway.

Thanks.

You just haven’t been in big enough surf or surfed the backwash at Makaha.

You guys may get this yet. Balance, it’s all about balance of forces … don’t overthink this now … it’s not that complicated. Also, Resistance … surfboards have this; boats and planes really don’t … they’re not generally planing on a curved/vertical surface … boards are. Big difference.

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very funny!!!

Only when it’s someone else!:smiley:

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Also, Resistance … surfboards have this; boats and planes really don’t … they’re not generally planing on a curved/vertical surface … boards are. Big difference.

Greg,

Would you mind expounding on these points a bit?

By resistance do you mean drag?

Also, I don’t quite understand the distinction that you are making between surfboards and boats/planes, and what you mean by planing on a curved/vertical surface.

Thanks!

Resistance is the board resisting to the wave face or resisting being engaged during a turn. For instance, a thicker rail is more resistant than a thin rail … a thin rail sinks deeper. The resistance is felt all along the rail length and the amount and balance of the resistance is one of the primary performance features. Large side fins also resist and that resisance in confined to the fin area of the board. Changing the size of the side fins changes the total amount of resistance and the placement of the balance of resistance.

Thanks Greg,

I definitely understand what you mean now. It would also seem that the faster you are traveling the more resistance there is to the board engaging during a turn.

And I just realized what you mean by surfboards being different because they are planing on a curved/vertical surface. You are talking about the wave face. DUH. Initially I thought you were talking about the curved/vertical surface of the surfboard.

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You guys may get this yet. Balance, it’s all about balance of forces … don’t overthink this now … it’s not that complicated. Also, Resistance … surfboards have this; boats and planes really don’t … they’re not generally planing on a curved/vertical surface … boards are. Big difference.

Actually, if I understand you right, boats do have this resistance. Granted, it’s not to a concave, vertical moving wave face, but there’s a certain amount of resistance inherit in some boat designs to engaging the boat’s hull during turning. The only reason I’m mentioning this is that it struck me that there’s an analogy to boat hull and surfboard bottoms to be made here. A deep V boat will roll into the turn, very solid and very abrupt with little or no slide, even at speed. A flat bottom boat has to be nursed into a high speed turn, as it wants to stay flat to the water, same a some flat bottomed surfboards will want to track rather than get on a rail and turn. Over simplified for sure, but there’s a comparison to be made there.

Can drag be considered resistance per how you are using the word? If so I again have been proven right by a respected expert for comments I made in the “forces in surfing” thread. Thank you in advance

Right … it’s actually pretty simple isn’t it? IMHO I wouldn’t compare boats and boards too closely. While the planets they live on have similarities they are still, in essence, living on different planets. A wave face is a very unique and special peice of aquious real estate with it’s own rules … I don’t think I should have to say that here really …

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The resistance is felt all along the rail length and the amount and balance of the resistance is one of the primary performance features.

Sounds like getting this just perfect is a key element of a majic board. I have figured out so many things along the way, but rails are still a bit of a mystery. It may sound obvious, but it would seem that the outline plays a major role in rail behavior wrt resistance. Good stuff to think about!

Yes, outline and rocker too. But edges and fin size, placement are things you can change. These two are HUGE.

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Can drag be considered resistance per how you are using the word? If so I again have been proven right by a respected expert for comments I made in the “forces in surfing” thread. Thank you in advance

I wouldn’t go that far. I don’t think that the resistance of board being put on the rail is due to drag, it is more due to lift (hydrodynamic lift, hydrostatic lift, and the combination thereof, depending on how fast you are going).

Wouldn’t you say that it is harder to put your board on it’s rail when you are moving faster?

I will give you credit, though, in the fact that drag is a very important force in surfing. Just not the only one, I was wrong in that regard, I wasn’t giving drag enough credit.

Also, the more I think about it, and the more we discuss, the distinction between drag and lift is becoming blurred, in my mind.

Hopefully someday I will figure it out.