I’ve just got a new twin keel type fish which I’ve ridden a couple of times in less than perfect surf, and it doesn’t ride quite as I expected. After reading lots of the posts about keel fin fish in the archives I expected my board to be fast down the line, but instead its very loose with not very much drive.
The dimensions of the board are 5’10" X 21". 5" deep butt crack. 10" from tip to tip. Slight double concave bottom. The keel fins are 9"x4.25" with a slight rake, set 11" up from the tail tips, and toed to about 6" past the nose.
I think the very loose, little drive feeling maybe due to the fins being too far up, is this correct? From previous posts it seems these style fins should be set about 7.5" up.
I recently aquired a Steve Lis fish. It’s 6’4" x 21 1/2" x 2 5/8" thick. The fins are set in the original configuration, no cant or toe in. The fins are 7 1/2" base, 5" height, set 6 3/8" up from the tail. I wanted this board to be an alternative to riding my longboard when the waves are really small and so far it has lived up to my expectations. I rode it in tiny Ala Moana surf the other day and was rather amazed at how it kept its speed in the tiny conditions. I could actually surf the waves where as if I were riding a modern fish I have that I shaped, I think I would have been bogging, just trying to stay on the wave.
It’s my understanding that true keels are double-foiled with no cant or toe-in. Here are some plans for a Lis style knoeeboard showing the placement of the keels.
I am glad you have this question about the placement of the twin keels. I am making my first classic style fish right now, and I had the same question. From what info I have gathered it seems fin placement closer to the tail would add to the board’s drive. This is what I am after too because I will be surfing mushy Jersey surf for most of the summer. When the longboard stays on the beach I want a thick floaty fish that maintains its drive in the water.
Another reason the board may feel loose might be due to where the widest point point is located. If the wide point is located at center or just forward of center then drive will improve. If the widepoint is behind the center of the board and closer to the tail then maneuverability will improve. Check it. A classic fish is designed to drive off the front foot. This is about the area you want its widepoint to be.
Symptoms you described are signs of YOU overpowering your fin and rail in the turns.
Are you sure the trailing edge of the fins are 11" up from the tail? That is farther forward than anything besides a tri (but they have a tail fin).
For such a setup to work, you’d need the widepoint to be placed about 6+ inches FORWARD of center, so you stand with your back foot on the leading edge of the fins, your front foot well forwards from there, in trim position.
The fins are definitely 11" up, the board has a similar outline to the Steve Lis fish, but I’m not sure how far the wide is up the board in relation to the fins. The fins are double foiled though.
I don’t think I’m over-powering the fins, after dropping into a wave and bottom turning the board doesn’t seem to have much go, but is very loose. I’ve knee-boarded it a few times and it seems fine down the line then.
I think I’ll give it a few more surfs in better waves, then consider moving the fins back to around 7 or 8" up.
Here’s my 5 cents worth. Just surfed my own fish for the first time. 5’10 x 21" x 2 5/8", 11" between tips, wide point up 3.5". The fins are 6.75" base x 4.75" height with a good rake, so quite a bit smaller than yours. Also, they’re only foiled on the outside. I placed them at 7.75" up, 1.25" in from the rail, and toed in to a point 3.5" either side of the nose (ie about 1/4" with that length of fin).
The board absolutely FLIES!!! The amount of drive is incredible and it is loose and non-tracky in the smoothest way imaginable, like a hot knife through butter.
Anyway, enough of me praising my latest creation. But that fin position works a treat.
11" is way too far forward for a pair of keels. There is tons of stuff in the archives on keel fin placement. One general idea that has worked for me is the leading edges of the fins should not be more than 15" from the tips. I’d move em back now. I line my 9x5’s with the butt crack, inline with the tips, 1/8 inch toe in and 4 degrees cant. The boards seem to work. Have fun.
I’ve surfed my fish for most of the summer and had a few good days at a couple of our very fickle point breaks. I kept the fins in the original place and had mixed results, when I was tuned into to surfing the fish it went well on my forehand, but I really struggled on my backhand and I resorted to kneeling (got a few nice bazzas). On my back-hand I found it very difficult to do a solid bottom turn and nearly impossible to pump down the line. From the moment I got the board I thought the fins were in the wrong place and was pretty dis-illusioned by the whole ‘fish’ experience.
Anyway, I finally got the fins moved back to about 7" up, with 0.25" toe and a little cant which I didn’t have before. I surfed it for the first time today in nice head-high surf and the board absolutely flies. It turns a treat and I could surf it on my back-hand no problem… without any of the problems I found before. It’s like having a completely different board.
I have to say a big thanks to everyone who replied before and to the Swaylock’s archives, otherwise I would still be stuck with a pig.
I’ve just bit the bullet and decided to get my fish retro fitted with the Lokbox system. I was thinking of going for the KG or Pavel keel fins and probably another set to change things around abit. Any suggestions? I was leaning towards the CI fins or CI Turbo?
hello - glad you’re getting the fins sorted - you just know when its not right - thought you might be interested in a thread i did a week back or so - same problem - the guy i took it to ponited out three different things to do with the fins that could cause it to be looser - 1. toe in on a double foiled fin (should be parallel) 2.fints too far forward (only 1/4" but enough to make a difference) 3. fins too close together (again only 1/4" but will still loosen it up)
I bought a KG Stu Kenson 5 10 twin keel this winter. fins place 7 1/2 in from tail tips, 5 1/2 in crack. this is the first board I have had that rode like I was standing on a bubble. It is so loose from a neutral postition, but on a hard bottom turn has great drive and super smooth and natural, then goes very fast down the line. I’ve had no experience with their removable keels.
So you found out the hard way how important fin position is? You were almost “over” the whole fish experience. And now it flies!! Right on bro! Since you are getting Lokbox in the next one I feel pretty confident you’ll muck around with the adjustment a bit. Just had 2 different customers stop by today and bent my ear on how moving their fins “lit up” their board! One guy was short and stocky and the other tall and lanky. Similar boards…way different fin positions. Imagine that.
Turbo CI’s if you like that skatey feel in smaller surf . Nice speed bursts on gutless waves. Non-turbos for better surf or down the line stuff… Thanks
Deadly, I’ve been following your thread on this site and MSW with interest. I think it finally encouraged to me to just get the fins sorted exactly how I want. I hope you get yours sorted how you want.
Thanks for that Lokbox. Other than the CI Turbos, which of the other templates would you recommend. I can’t decide between the Pavels and KGs. Do you have any other keel fins, other than the ones on your site. And which foil if I went for the KGs, symetrical or asymetrical? I’m getting the fins set at about 7.5" up, 1/8" toe and 3° cant, so am I right to think the single foil?
Well the Pavels and the KG’s are 2 very different fins. Both come stock symetrical unless you order them flat sided. The pavels have a 7" base, and the KG’s an 8.5" base. Pavels are more designed for release and pivot, whereas the KG’s are more for down the line type surf where you want tons of drive and don’t mind sacrificing a bit of manueverability. I’d use the KG’s if I had a real wide tail and down the line point surf. If I was surfing a more diverse array of waves such as beachbreak I’d go with the Pavels. Since both are symetrical the 1/8th toe sounds ok. Personally I like 3/16ths but it could be a bit much for the long based KG’s. I’d also go for 4 or 5 degrees unless it’s a vee bottom. If there’s any concave whatsoever the board will go rail to rail better with a bit of cant. Hope that helps!
I think I’ve got it : KGs for down the line speed (but is symetrical better than single foiled on a board with a slight double concave), Pavels for release and pivot, CIs Turbos for a skatey feel. Bear in mind my current fins are 9"x4.25" (see pic above), which I’ve been surfing for 18 months or so, which 2 sets would you suggest? Also, when will you next have CI Turbos in stock?
Actually the closest thing to those that we have are probably the Zippi’s. Similar base and template. Although they come single foiled I believe. The foil is just a preference. We sell both, and good feedback from both. My personal feelings are the double foils are a bit smoother and help control the board a bit more. Some people don’t want control. The kids want the opposite. The single foils will help you square a tighter bottom turn in the pocket and even release the tail,but may suffer a bit of control especially in the soup. I think since your so used to the longer base keels, you may do better with those, but you never know. You might like the shorter bases! Hard for me to say without knowing a little about how and where you surf…
