All of the systems have their adavantages and disadvantages. Despite having probably the most disadvantages, Probox still comes out way ahead because of its adjustability after installation. Fooling around with cant will affect your board’s performance as much or more than moving a fin 1/8 inch fore or aft (and that is A LOT for those rookies out there).
My biggest problem with the Probox system is; it only takes a slight tap of your fin on a rock and the box gets shoved into the foam creating a huge repair. I’m doing the popsicle stick thing in addition to lining the hole with glass to minimize the problem…so far so good but I’m extra carefull entering and exiting the reefy waters around here.
If it takes you that much longer, then you’re doing it wrong. I’m just a backyard hack and not in a rush, but last week I installed 8 Probox boxes (two boards), with 3-5 minutes prep (gluing the jigs down), 5-10 minutes to route, and then say 15 minutes to resin in place (and top up the resin dam with a syringe). Let’s call it 25 minutes to do 8 boxes (Of course in a pro shop, if you’re doing more than 2 boards at once, you could get the unit time lower). If you can do 8 Futures boxes in 2.5 minutes, then that’s impressive. But I don’t think you can.
Best thing about Probox is the adjustability. The last quad I made didn’t feel quite right, until I moved the fins forward and back until I found the sweet spot. Try doing that with FCS or Futures.
That bufoonish 7 fin set up with a futures would take say 10-15 minutes to route out. With the probox, some of the fins are so close together that it would be a two step process to get the close ones in. You would have to toatlly finish the one of the close sets COMPLETELY, to include sanding flat to the deck just to be able to use the probox jig to cut and set the remaining boxes. I am totally epoxy and If you are doing EPS, your set times for epoxy are wayyyyyyyyyy short and to whip out a sander and over heat a fresh epoxy resin cure(as you describe) could be a potential problem that most do not even realize.
Look at the pic again and tell me how you would do it quicker.
This is a discussion about installs not benefits of probox. I believe the Mckee fin placement formula is spot on and as other respected shapers fin set ups that don’t rely on the crutch of adjustability. The most copied 5 fin master, Greg Griffin, comes to mind along with many others.
That 7 finner is a testimony of the attitude it is the equipement and not the surfer. I understand certain boards for certain conditions, but we all know it’s the indian and not the arrow.
Glad to hear your probox is working great for you. I would love to see you install 8 proboxes from start to finish in 25 minutes. Now how long will it take you to sand them all down for the gloss coat??? That glue gumming up your sander?
C'mon guys, some dudes like brunettes, some like blondes, some like ford, some like chevy. Plenty of things we could split hairs on. Seriously, use whatever system you prefer.
I have never installed any system other than Probox but, I can see how it would take longer then Futures. As far as which is easier, I really can’t say but, Probox is really easy but somewhat fiddly to install… The benefits of the system greatly outweigh the extra care in installation for me. BUT, I’m not doing it for a living. I just tinker on boards in my backyard… But, when I used to buy surfboards, Futures was the worst for me.
I hear you beerfan, but the initial poster was essentially talked out of getting a futures set up. If he can afford it, I say go for it. He had some specific reasons for wanting to use it. What’s wrong with becoming a total package in board building and repair. I assume we all want to get better at building skills, sell some boards, make some repairs and bring in more money than you spend. I agree it is a preference which will eventually belong to CUSTOMERS of ours.
Well Chris, now that you have a roll of corecork there are 2 fin box systems that you can use with corecork to make the strongest box on earth. One of them is futures. You place the futures in the foam pre vacuum bagging. Let epoxy cure for 30 minutes. tape off top of futures box opening and screw hole.(comes raised). Skin the bottom of your board with 4oz cloth between foam and cork, vacuum for 90 minutes and prepared to be blown away. Perfectly formed cork toatlly covering your futures box. After skinning the whole board with corecork, you can glass the bottom with the futures covered and sand after glassing or sand box opening prior to glassing and just tape off for glassing. You have a small slot opening for the fin with access to the screw. The different colors futures offers now you can really hide or highlight the boxes nicely or use white and show off that professional clean fin box opening only a few can do.
You easily shave off 30-40 minutes of build time with this technique. It is doubtful that a box failure would occur without it being a catastrophic event.
I have installed first generation probox with bringbacks for falling out. Is that the fault of probox or the installer?
These corecork boards are building themselves almost.
I am with you. I think underglass installation, O’fish’l,Fusion, 4 way, futures are stronger when patched or vacuum bagged under the composite material. The strongest box in my opinion with fore and aft adjustment is Red-X when used in compsand boards. This system really cuts build times down also.
I think probox has a great product that many people can use with success and all the positioning options makes it very atttractive to many people. But most of all the current owner, who makes great fins too, really stands behind his product and his business ethics makes it even more of an attractive device to use in a surfboard. I am glad I know how to install them for any repairs that may come my way.
Adjustability is not a crutch. Every rider is different. If McKee works for you (it works for me, too), great. But your highest performance level is not mine, not to mention style, approach, fin choice, etc. Adjustability gives each rider the opportunity to fine tune. For me personally, I change things up just for fun… not to compensate for misplaced fin specs.
FCS plugs are the easiest to sand, but hardest to rout correctly.
Probox are the hardest to sand, but perhaps the easiest to install. When they finally do upgrade their materials (and I’m confident they will, 'cause if they don’t, they’re falling behind), the sanders will get some relief. THEN you’ll have an easily installed system, WITH adjustability, that’s ALSO light and strong.
I didn’t know the answer to this, so I just went out back and sanded them down. It took 25 mins to sand all 8 boxes flush. No resin gumming at all, although the resin has had a week or so to cure (like I said, I’m a backyard hack and not in a rush!). Keep in mind though that I’m fairly new to this, so someone more experienced should do be able to do it quicker.
And I agree with nj_surfer, adjustability is not a crutch. There are too many variables to say one fin placement suits all fin profiles, surfing styles, etc.
Hi Charlie, Bernie and I visited Robin in Dec 2010. He explained his theory on the quad layout and I have been sold on it since. It’s set closer than GG’s 5fins or McKee’s quatro. I like the McKee and the Gemini setup, but they are a bit closer to how a thruster handles. Robin’s hammer quad setup feels more like GG’s 5fins, but with out the 5th fin. I’ve done the last 3 boards that way and converted 2 others as well.
Bernie has all the fin systems, and all the fins, but I only have FCS and a couple of the Probox fins, so probox are my choices with the long center box. We almost got into Red-x too, but the fin choices were limited. I helped him route out Futures once, but I didn’t glass that. We also did the FCS fusions and I glassed some of those. On the poly boards I did a few years ago, I just stuck the standard FCS plugs in, that was the easiest I’ve done.
If other people knew how much you’ve done with boards and how you’ve got it all down to such an efficient science they may not argue with you about this stuff. I don’t quite have it all figured out, so having the options for where and what I stick in the board give me some wiggle room. Gotta admit that having all the flexibility with probox is a major advantage.
Talked to my mom about the church stuff, and she may get Bernie to bring her down. He had knee surgery in Dec. and I haven’t seen him since New Year’s. We haven’t done Compsands for a while now because he’s been doing pens and other stuff.
I still have all but one of the boards you did for me. I gave one away to a friend, but I still ride the others.
One of the things I did for the probox is cut out a cardboard template to keep the spray glue from going where I don’t want it. I use a grinding wheel or a 30 grit flap wheel to take them down. Then I use my orbital. The grinder takes it down in seconds.
I also like to use eye droppers instead of syringes.
bb30, It always amazes me how people compare apple to oranges. This install on the Black night took me 13 mins route and install ready to sand.
As for this 7 fin set up up, did you read the purpose of this board? I am amazed how taking short cuts in a factory translates to the end user who is looking for the sweet ride. It’s funny how the Probox method has been around since 1969 same as the center box. Then after 1995 look how many box breakages and failures there are along with some ding repair guys making more than the glass shop who glass the board complete. Great KOOLAID out there my friend. Mahalo,Larry
