Professor Barnfield's take on reverse vee

I posted on Surfermag.com i am making 20 " stock" consignment boards for mainland stores to help start reacuring shaping trips there.

This is my goal in making a living after T&C as a shaper.

Working with a wider range of customers making more board types for for more types of customers.

This is alot more work than just shaping here , but it will be alot of fun.

If you know of shops that want to work with an out of the area shaper contact them about this as they dont look at the internet.

Shop owners don’t follow whats on the internet.

Hi Greg, I may be wrong but I think the point Pinhead was making is on the demand side. A few certain guys, say experimental Swaylock types, try something different and it works great. Word of mouth spreads on the beach and online. Soon paying customers start to ask new questions and perhaps demand for new designs begins to grow. Customers then ask shops if they carry ‘XYZ’, and so it goes.

As an example, the first time I saw your five finners I thought ‘yuk, that looks so draggy’. I would have never tried it if it wasnt for Oneula’s and Sharkcountry’s online reviews of your boards. So I had to try 4/5 finners and Im totally sold.

OTOH, if it isnt in the mags, it will harder to sell.

Most shops here in FL dont cater to hardcore surfers who want to push new perf limits via equipment. Sure there are a few exceptions, but most shops make their bread selling apparel. They stock a few boards so that they can call themselves a ‘surfshop’ but the money isnt there. Fact is, surfers are very price sensitive creatures. This is truer in the islands.

As you know, I think the internet allows mfgs like yourself to expand to a much wider market thru custom orders and freight delivery. Customers can interact with the mfg via the website. Websites can be updated daily. I think the whole retail shop thing is out of touch with hardcore surfers. But it may just be that Im getting old and jaded.

As far as economics, PUSH marketing is all around us. We literally are being bombarded every day. And it works because people are materialistic and like to buy chachkees. But I like to think it comes down to simple demand PULL. IMO, internet does have an impact. Just my two cents.

I have had no replys from any shop owner on surfermag.com

I offered 20 boards on consignment with trips to do customs periodically

I have about 100 posted favorable customer reviews

More product posted on the internet than any board builder

And i have heard from no shop Owner

John of mollusk had no idea who i was or what i make even after i talked to Manny at his shop the day before.

Swaylocks is unique and is not part of the surf buisness world.

I could make alot happen at any shop but we live in a time that a paint job wins over a completly custom made board by Jim Phillips and freinds at the board build off.

I think part of the problem is the concentration oif world class shapers in a small geographic area in a global context.

This means that buyers in those areas have an embarrasment of riches and the shapers are constantly competing for shop space. The shops love it cause they can get boards cheap.

To some extent these centers of excellence are important, though not essential. (e.g. Bert B)

The other parts of the world - the larger market, generally have access only to local shapers for poly boards and so big name shapes by surftech means you get something durable and predictable for your money. I have jumped through hoops over the years to bring in a Larry Mabile handshapes, griffin and campbell bonzers for myself.

Many of the Chinese boards are also quite rideable which is a problem. You can’t stop chinese boards, but you can switch people on to high end boards if you can somehow get the people access to them. Not just in California and Hawaii.

Polyseter boards don’t travel well another major problem.

If a world class shaper is struggling in Hawaii or Cali, you guys really need to start blazing a trail as travelling shapers. APS3000 and blanks are all available in Europe. So come on over for a couple of weeks each year and it’ll fill your coffers for a while.

I can count at least 40 boards among my friends over the past 3 years which are imported from Cali Shapers. High end noseriders & fish mostly. The prices paid for these boards would well pay a shaper for a custom over here, it would work out cheaper for the customer AND giver a bigger margin to the shaper. Everybody wins.

Quote:

BTW, the reverse vee was also picked up by the sailboard community about the same time and Fred Haywood was the first man to break 30 knots on one shaped by Jimmy Lewis.

…just saw this thread…this is a hot one…right on with the sailboard quote…we were calling these panel vee’s. Fist ones that caught on here showed up from Graham Allen on the Windsurfing Hawaii “White Lites”…DS

I have had no replys from any shop owner on surfermag.com

Not to beat a dead horse…shops make significantly larger profits selling cheap imports. This is not new to commerce (Walmart comes to mind), surfboards are just late in the game.

The consignment strategy is valid. But there’s got to be a reason why takers are few. Or they simply arent your true customers. Im also afraid that your suffering from a bit of island isolation and your local island market wont support the prices which you most definitely deserve. Guessing, but Im pretty certain you would be satisfied selling 10-15 boards each week, top dollar locally.

FWIW, its really tough everywhere in commerce. Im self employed and make half what I used to make as a product development engineer. The last co I worked for used to do almost everything in house, from concept to mfg. Then they went to contract mfg in China. While I was there, they slowly shifted more design development, which was done here by people like me, over to the Chinese. Now thats gone too. The project engineers are now just liasons between marketing and mfgs. So Im way under employed, partly by market forces, partly by personal choice. I refuse to play the profit at any cost game, and now I just try to follow the money flows in the business services sect. Not easy cuz everyone else is trying to do it too so competition is fierce.

Its safe to say that bucking the status quo with a new biz model centered on high customer satisfaction in custom manufacturing is key. Something as seemingly trivial as delaying a board shipment can affect your future prospects. The most successfull businesses strive for 100% satisfaction. Of course, easier said than done.

-the mass in internet are virtual

take for ex the reunion that ACE did…in the pictures look like a dozen people or so…

and how many check the thread here?

lot of folks living in that area but didnt attended

so you can have got many nice words but not sells

-we dont need those cloth shops named surf shops

why?

because first is not good for the shapers or boardbuilders

if they dont make money…well, change the business and put a fast food or something that is generic or for all

they dont even create too much employment

And i have heard from no shop Owner…

And I bet none of those guys have ridden your boards.

maybe JimtheGenius can talk to his fellow shaper friends and see if they want to include someone like Greg in their little ongoing online venture.

http://www.surfboardbuilders.com/

Griff would definitely bring something unique to the group as I don’t think anyone part of it is doing what’s he’s doing.

Problem is the whole internet thing has not panned out as expected (He does have his own website to do business) nor has any of the online viral marketing from all the rave reviews from his customers all over the US.

The only ones who seem to understand what he has to offer are the ones who’ve experienced his handicraft first hand and that’s just a hard sell for this particular type of audience who’s not as sold on testimonial marketing as they are on glossy magazine marketing and bro deals.

But again all this is off topic and should be a new thread…

Regarding the infamous yellow board…

I bought a reverse vee copy of Maurice’s yellow board design by Arakawa I got used at SurfnSail. I never had any success with it as it didn’t fit my style of surfing eventhough Johnny Boy thought it was a good looking board when he saw it in the lineup many moons ago. Sold it to a coworker later who snapped it on his first day at big North Beach. The signed yellow board was hanging on the wall behind the register at the Blue Hawaii store in Waikele for awhile I always thought it would be a neat purchase as a wall hanger for everything that came about from it…It was a piece of surfing history for sure…

It seems no one follows what i am replying to.

If it was followed there would be no theorys or missunderstanding

If a shop offered a new exciting format of boards with a shaper doing customs it would seperate that shop and bring them more customers for their stuff.

The takers are few because they have no vision and are all followers to be safe.

I brought all this 20 boards thing up in response to how the internet makes things happen

Shop Owners are the major board buyers and they don’t look here or at Surfermag.

Greg,

I can understand why a shop would not wish to be involved in customs. The margins are low and the workload is high. To attract customers all they have to do is offer discounts on a range of boardshorts.

There is a huge appetite for high end Cali and Hawaiian boards in Europe and Japan. There are many agents who import Christensons, Pavels, Tylers etc and sell them for twice what a customer would pay in a US shop never mind directly from a shaper. I really believe that there is a living to be made providing customs directly for non US customers.

The market is there beyond the traditional one, outside the US surfing is the fastest growing activity in the world - Shapers need a new business model. The collective approach certainly has many merits to reduce marketing and shipping.

…yes Japan pays for those boards cause the Yens, half of the European Countries too (Pounds, Euros)

but in other parts like other America s Countries or down South or S Africa, the money is not so strong

for ex in Brazil there s a huge market, as big as USA or more but not for the high end boarbuilder

Peru has rich surfers who pay a lot for custom famous shapers boards

Shaping in Europe and working with the customers has always been part of this plan.

But i have to start at the begining and not at the end , working towards this.

It would only take 40 boards every 2 months on the mainland to get me to where i could come there.

This would not take much to do for a few good shop owners

Greg - interesting to hear your feedback on the net - you’re probably right, forums don’t have much impact on their own. Reviews make a difference when someone is trying to decide what to buy - they do a search on a model or shaper name then they see recommendations from other surfers and make their choice. But they need to know about the shaper first.

Your thread at surfermag is at 2213 hits. Read the replies. It’s obvious people want your boards. You just have to figure out how to work that. One of the first rules of business is supply and demand. Only I’ve always thought that was backwards. Should be demand and supply. Once you’ve created the demand…you must follow closely behind with the supply. If you don’t, that demand slowly falls off.

http://forum.surfermag.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1284176&an=0&page=0#Post1284176

My posting of my Rocket models and the customer reviews i have created a small demand for them as i told you on the phone over here.

I have only been able to purchase 2 7’ 11" King Mac blanks in the last 5 months to make these.

There is a supply problem for this demand.

I will be working with US blanks to get their rockers so i can make these out of their blanks so i can make them and fill that demand.

There were no 7’11" blanks on King Macs last container and none in sight.

They make a good board and i don’t have ask for any changes and spending the time adjusting US blanks will cost me time and money.

Customers don’t understand the blank problem on larger customs and i need to fix it.

Oh yeah, I remember about those bigger blanks. What about smaller fish style stuff can you get those?

I will also see if i can get a good rocker in the US fish blanks

When i do i will know what to order when traveling and be able to trust that my boards will fit in them .

The way they are now you can’t get a full thickness board from them and you could get a wider thickness range with a different rocker.

I just got 2 8’4"s from John at King Mac to do 7’4" s

Apologies to interrupt you guys. I’ve been away and got fired up by an older post from Maurice.

Maurice and other knowledgeable shapers

If I understand it, reverse vee allows more parallel outline by 1) increased rocker through the middle of the board, relative to the rails (particularly good for front foot loaded surfers), and 2) increased rocker overall. These trade off with the flatter bottom tcontours to keep speed and drive.

Is this an appropriate insight?

I’m interested because I’ve been trying to figure how to lose an inch or more of width without having to put more turnability into the tail.

How much vee?

Interesting stuff, thanks

Red

I’m still trying to figure out what any of Sunsetpoint’s posts in this thread have to do with reverse vee. Can they be moved to their own thread? I’m not saying it’s not an interesting stuff, just that it kind of clouds this thread up with at least one whole page of stuff that has nothing to with Cole v. Barnfield and the history of bottom contours, ha!