Since no one else asked, could you tell us the story of how the forward/reverse vee “suddenly materialized” after you made some boards for Maurice Cole? What is your take on this bottom shape? (I’ve been waiting to hear this story since the “Earth to Bill Barnfield” thread months ago). Thanks for sharing.
[=Blue]Aloha Numbnuts
I am super swamped at the moment with no light at the end of the tunnel in sight. I will try to remember your request when I dig out of the big hole I am currently in. But in case I don’t, please ask again in a couple of weeks and I will try to find time to tell the story.
and, “numby”…can we get the lowdown on the origin of “numbnuts” too , please ?
[you surf COLD water all year round , or what ?]
cheers !
ben
Thanks a lot Mr. Barnfield I’ll bug you again in a few weeks. Good luck with all your projects.
There was once a Morey-Pope design “The Deese Original” by Richard Deese (famous fin guy? - Karl Pope didn’t remember when asked.)
It featured a pronounced vee in the nose back to mid section. A transitional board with good sized flex fin. Bought used, it was my very first board - a 7’10".
…what year would that have been , John …around 1969 ?
cheers !
ben
Hi Ben -
It might have been around that time - maybe earlier. I think I bought the board around '70-'71 and it had been heavily used.
[=Blue]Aloha John, Numbnuts and others
Can any of you guys describe the bottom on the contemporary “reverse vee”.
BB
1/8" to 3/16" flat panel vee starting in front of the front foot.
Approaching the fins, the vee begins to flatten a little.
By the rear thruster fin there is no Vee at all, flat side-to-side off the tail.
I was in France when Maurice and TC were ridding the reverse vee’s. They ripped. I wonder why the design has disapered (or has it)? In the movie “Searching for Tom Curren” Tom is ridding one with no logos and yellow rails I think around 7’2" to 7’4" and is just killing it!
Also why you all are at it what the heck is an “Inverted Vee” and why is it better than a concave…
A shaper friend (G. Ku) says it’s the only way to go and that concaves are a waste of time in comparison…
I tried an Arakawa shaped reverse vee minigun right after that Curren yellow board fiasco made it popular and didn’t like it one bit. I guess you need to have a surfing style to fit them.
Quote:
1/8" to 3/16" flat panel vee starting in front of the front foot.
Approaching the fins, the vee begins to flatten a little.
By the rear thruster fin there is no Vee at all, flat side-to-side off the tail.
[=Blue]Aloha Blakestah
Quote:
Also why you all are at it what the heck is an “Inverted Vee” and why is it better than a concave…
A shaper friend (G. Ku) says it’s the only way to go and that concaves are a waste of time in comparison…
IMO I don’t think a reverse vee is better than a concave, or vice versa. I think they both have advantages and both serve certain purposes.
When I put Rvee in a board, it is for faster and choppier surf, which sometimes implies bigger waves. It helps cut through the chop a little better on guns, and helps wider boards like fishes go rail to rail a little easier. On fishes I also add some vee to the tail to help with rail to rail and turning. The last fish I did had about 1/8" of reverse vee in a certain area of the board, and 1/4" of tail vee from a certain length up from the tail. Couple that with a little thinner rail, and, oh boy.
I would use concaves for shorter hotdog boards. But I shape for Tex/Mex/Costa mostly, not Cali or Hawaii.
Mr. Barnfield,
Respectfully, weren't the early to mid 90's reverse vees even further forward on the board? For example, vee starting a foot back from the nose, deepest near the wide point, and fading to flat by the front fins? I have enjoyed riding my crude shapes with a rolled vee entry and before going for the more extreme version I would appreciate The Master's opinion on the bottom shape described above (along with any tips to make it work better). Yes, Chipper I live in Rooster-land (Monterey Bay) where its always pretty chilly.
here’s an obscure Vee Question: back in the late 60’s early 70’s it was common to see the first 8 to 12 inches of a board built in the islands to have a vee’ed contour under the nose. WHY? i remember being told it was to cut the chop while dropping in???
"The nose vee.
You know the nose is almost never buried, so why the vee?? If you’re doing say 30 K.P.H. on the wave, and your’ve got a 20 K.P.H. offshore wind your’ve got a kite under your feet. Look at all wings, they’ve got a vee of some sought between them. Why? They self-stabilise. Follow that one? Try it. Try a hard wrap around cutbsack off the lip, combo at the top of an 8 foot wave with a howling offshore. It’s better that a flat nose underneath."
Bob McTavish
1976
Yes, wed-thurs was numbnutty, indeed. Had to go to the 5 mm. Fun ones in the Bay, huh, numbnuts? Numbnuts is being humble when he describes his boards as crude. They’re sweet! He’s one of the guys that got me thinking I could make my own, too. Don’t know nothing about reverse vee. Sorry, yah’all. Bye.Mike
Quote:
Mr. Barnfield,
Respectfully, weren’t the early to mid 90’s reverse vees even further forward on the board? For example, vee starting a foot back from the nose, deepest near the wide point, and fading to flat by the front fins?
Aloha Numbnuts
Keep in mind that terms like “Reverse Vee” often describe a very broad category of interperative designs by many different individuals, all trying to copy a particular “thing” based on what they heard about it. Especially since few will have actually seen a hands on original of the creation. Additionally, when people attempt to copy a design, even ones they have seen, they unknowingly tend to exaggerate the characteristics that will help them visibly prove to everyone that they have the “design” down pat. Consequently, the actual intereptations of designs will swing all over the place, sometimes better, often worse as the clones of the clones get passed around. Did you ever see Michael Keaton in Multiplicity? Ha!
Maurice popularized the term, Reverse Vee. Which was/is ostensibly connected to a particular (one would expect specific) design. But the evolving of surfboard designs simply doesn’t work that way in real life. And what one sees in their local area may have little similarity to what the original designer intended.
I don’t know who’s boards you saw that gave you your impression of what a “reverse vee” should be. And I am not saying it was incorrect. But I would imagine that most who would guess at what this new thing was, would simply reverse the vee and have more vee forward of center and less back of center.
I had no idea what Maurice was up to when I heard about his “reverse vee” designs nor cared really, I was just stoked for his success! Like most fads though, reverse vee boards, as I mentioned above or you described, were never common on the North Shore. But eventually, a friend and customer (who later drowned surfing Puaena Point) brought one in to show me as he had bought one at Local Motion where they were selling Official, Maurice’s Cole, reverse vee models straight off the shaping machine and his original designs. My customer knew I would get a kick out of it as, he had been riding that bottom on my boards for years!
I don’t really know what others were doing at the time, or before or after that to interpet his reverse vee. But the boards I saw of Maurice’s were identical to a very common bottom that I had been making and commonly using… for pretty much, forever. I make no special claims of ownership of that bottom or any kind of origination of the design. It was just something I had evolved to and found it to be working quite well. I don’t know what everyone else was doing but I am sure many were doing something similar as my boards were often copied and I had taught many shapers or used them as ghost shapers for my Japanese boards. Numbnuts, you are in Monterey, try to find some Doug Schroedel boards from that era and check them out. He worked with me a lot.
Here is a tri fin from the 1990’s that has basically the same bottom as the one from 1976, 14 years earlier. I should note that the vee in these carries well forward but I had to put the straight edges where they could be seen in the photo. Around center the vees begin to lessen toward the nose.
In early 1988 I made some boards for Maurice that had exactly this same bottom. After which he went back to Spain. Around that time I was also making boards for Tom Curren in Hawaii (as I had for years) and was also sending some of them to France. Tom was later working with Maurice on boards. A few short months later… the REVERSE VEE exploded on to the scene. It would be interesting to hear Maurice’s explanation of how he came about his “reverse vee” concepts just a few months after working with me and my very similar board designs. But, oddly… I have never seen or spoken to him again since. I liked/like Maurice and willingly shared intimate board designs and ideas with him. Too bad is ended so unusually. If your listening Maurice, I am awaiting your visit and explanations.
Note this quote from the recent Surfriders Auction, regarding “his” reverse vee design.
Maurice Cole came into the international spotlight in 1990 when Tom Curren won his third world championship while using Cole’s boards. This balsa board replicates Cole’s introduction of the “reverse vee” design. It has a slight vee-panel concavity in the tail, rather than the previously typical convexity. Reverse vee soon became a standard characteristic of shortboards everywhere
As you can imagine I have some dispute with any history that says that “Maurice Cole” created a bottom design that “became the standard characteristic of shortboards everywhere” when if fact, that very bottom design was an integral part of my board designs for close to a couple of decades before Maurice found it, gave it a name, popularized it, and took it as his own. No wonder he doesn’t show his face around my shop!
Ahhh, but what’s new! I have to remind myself that this is the surf industry, where memories are short and integrity is in even shorter supply.
Ok that’s the story. Now I gotta get back to work and finish these before my customers kill me!
If I get a chance I will try to address the idea of vee’d noses and such, but suffice to say that they don’t commonly exist for a reason!
I have enjoyed riding my crude shapes with a rolled vee entry and before going for the more extreme version I would appreciate The Master’s opinion on the bottom shape described above (along with any tips to make it work better). Yes, Chipper I live in Rooster-land (Monterey Bay) where its always pretty chilly.
could you tell us the story of how the forward/reverse vee “suddenly materialized” after you made some boards for Maurice Cole?
Great story, thanks!
What is your take on this bottom shape?
Still waiting for you to address this one…
Thank you Mr. Barnfield. You could charge five bucks a piece for your board stories and I bet we’d all pay. Please do address the idea of vee’d noses and such when you get the time. Thanks again.
p.s. Thanks for the kind words Rooster, that’s so cool. Sounds like we better batten down the hatches for the next few days.