Ok, 2nd basic post in less than 1 minute:
Searched the archives, but couldn’t figure out the difference between q-cell (quartz microspheres) and the microbaloons people use instead of spackle. Is there a difference?
Thanks Again.
Pat
Microballoons are tiny glass spheres I believe. So different material obviously, but I’m not sure about the difference in usage (Advantages/Disadvantages). Hopefully someone else will come by and help you out.
They can be, but are not necessarily always, two names for the same thing.
Please take the time to check this link, this link and this link and also check product labels. The guy behind the counter may not have a clue.
There are different materials used in making microballoons - some are silica, some are made from a phenolic compound. Some are white, some are brown, some are light, some are heavier.
Silica can be used in “raw” form as a powdery filler similar to talc. It can also be blown into tiny spheres known as microballoons. If considering weight, it matters how thick the walls of the microballoons are.
The info in the links explain it better than I can and one includes micro-pics.
Regarding spackle… the lightest weight spackle (i.e. Fast and Final or equivalent) uses silica microballoons as a filler in some sort of acrylic base. Epoxy resin can also be mixed with various fillers to make a putty or “bog” for sealing EPS blanks. Epoxy filler is also available premixed. Some of the premixed versions use cheap fillers and will be heavier than if microballons are used.
PS - Herb Spitzer has been known to tear up diapers and use diaper stuffing as a resin thickener so don’t sweat too many details. One of the links lists a “microfiber” additive that is more expensive than Herb’s filler.
I’m really hoping “Herb Spitzer has been known to tear up old diapers…” means that he finds unused & discarded ones, and not post-consumer… If that’s the secret ingredient, you can count me out 
To the original question, I’ve really found little difference. EXCEPT when tinting a color-matching & filled ding. Microballoons of quartz look like tints (as does tinted cabosil - silica dust) but silica microballoons look like opaque. So if you’re filling a ding on an opaque tinted board, use the silica microballoons, but if you’re filling a ding on a tinted board or a sprayed board, use the quartz ones or cabosil. Its not a big difference, but in color-matching, every bit helps.
Hi Benny -
I’m sorry to have mispoken. Note the word “old” has been deleted in above post.
Also sorry that this gets kind of complicated. I’m not even sure if it addresses the original question.
The exact form of silica, as used in fillers, is what triggered a discussion between myself and Mark Spindler awhile back. As I remember we eventually agreed that the silicate fillers used in spackle may be microballoons but not all silicate fillers are in microballoon form. It is a common mineral and can be tweaked in various ways including melting to form glass and microballoons.
Quartz is actually a silica but not all silicates are quartz. Below is a cut/paste from a mineral website as I don’t trust my own understanding on these details. As a matter of fact, the original question led me to research this and I almost wish I hadn’t.
I tried verifying with a paint store owner who retailed some of these products and was that ever a mistake. He ended up calling the different companies and still couldn’t get a straight answer.
In a pinch, I’ve used foam dust or pancake flour with a little pigment and it worked OK.
My main point in above post, aside from Bert’s mysterious fascination with diapers, was that there are also phenolic “microballoons”(claimed to be lighter and sanded easier) that are the brown color. Mr J squeegeed phenolic microballoon/epoxy “bog” as a fill coat on his light weight compsand boards. The cosmetic issues with the brown color were of secondary importance in his quest for lightness.
Again, sorry if this is clear as mud now.
Quartz is not the only mineral composed of SiO2. There are no less than eight other known structures that are composed of SiO2. These other substances and quartz are polymorphs of silicon dioxide and belong to an informal group called the Quartz Group or Silica Group. All members of this group, except quartz, are uncommon to extemely rare on the surface of the earth and are stable only under high temperatures and high pressures or both. These minerals have their own unique structures although they share the same chemistry, hence the term polymorph, which means many forms.
thanks john
thats good information!
I have used every kind of filler out there and none beats a good light wt. spackle for ,“ease of use”.However,if you’re thinking the epoxy/spheres thing,try this; D.E. (damascus earth) Crystals.This was A TIP handed down by a poster named ,“Noodle” some,many moons ago…
You can purchase it at pool supplies or at a supermarket.It costs under 10 bucks for a gallon tub.It works great !!! and creates a good lt.wt. bonding sealer.Cheap,easy to use and is natural…
I suggest if you use D.E.; to mix a little white pigment,or white q-cell in with it. D.E. is a organic product (good for all you tree huggin’ enviromentalists). and contains tiny/micro particles of sea shells in it,so if you use it straight up,w/o whiting agents you’ll get a off tan colored coat instead of stark white.
A check on one of those Google links at the bottom of the page revealed yet another microsphere filler material - “Cenospheres.” I might have to ask for a sample of some of this stuff.
John, I liked the ‘old diapers’ bit! Any excuse for humor in an otherwise dry (pun intended) thread is good times
Herb, I think DE is Diatomaceous Earth. Diatoms were ancient shelled organisms which were left behind in vast quantities when seas receded…shells, of course, are calcium carbonate, another perfect lightweight filler which bonds to almost anything…
I’ve also found phenolic microballoons gray in color…and I didn’t think it was any great coincedence they mixed down (with epoxy) to the exact color of divinycell. Leading me to believe that not only were they compatible products (d-cell generally sucks resin like a sponge but seals nicely with microballoons) but that the balloons were possibly even - in that case - made from PVC…
The moral of the story is read those labels…
Wow.
Ok folks, this has seriously been a lot of information. All very usefull. Herb, I DO love to hug trees, so maybe once my current quart of q-cell is gone I’ll get some DE and laugh all the way to the commune.
----------> I’ll go let my brain explode now.
Pat
Ah Benny !!!
You blew it !!!I was hoping I could get, “the poster formerly named Noodle” out on the board again…he deserves all the credit.
But,you did get the info correct…
…You see there darling, Mr.Benny1 is an educated man…now I know I hate him…
Naw,just a line from the movie,“Tombstone”.
I know Ike, Let’s have a spelling “bee”…LOL !!!
I have not tried it out as a sealer…I’m sure you could get it to work in combos or thinning,but to get a flat and/or even flow…heck I hate preping the mircos/epoxy let alone think about the mess you might make with the diaper filler…Then again it might flow real nice w/ the right mix and in that case you’d have a stronger sealing product…alot stronger.
And by the way Benny1…it is the used soiled diapers I use…recycling at it’s best!!!.
…and the smell goes away in about a month…
sometimes a year.
…Oozeing excretments are rarely a problem due to the fact that I slightly barbeque the filler to cook the ingredents in,but sometimes oozeing occures and can be a problem. A good quick fix is to fill the crack or holes w/toilet paper, this keeps the oozing down to a minimum…+s…It keeps people in the line-up away from me and provides an excellent skark repellent…
…Nothing smells more…
…like victory to me…
… than hearing in the line-up…,“Geeeez, your board reeks dude ! I’m going to paddle down the beach,please don’t follow me…gag/chock/cough”.
…and it’s organic !!!
Glass bubbles/ Micro Balloons: are hollow silicone dioxide powder. It is a non-absorbent additive used to extend all types of resins and gelcoats. it can be used in resins alone; however, its main use is to be used in conjunction with other fillers to create easy to sand compounds
Cabosil/Q-Cell is light weight, low density fumed silica powder additive for use in all types of resins and gelcoats although, when used to thicken polyester or vinylester resins, creates an excellent medium sanding, non-slumping compound.
Just remember;
Balloons are hollow, therefore sanding is easier, and a "rougher) finish (pore space) is good for resin adheasion.
Q-Cell is solid spheres and sands smoother. great for leash plugs etc. Not as good for glassing over unless your within the timeframe that is required for a chemical bond of resin instead of a mechanical bond.
Hope this helps
Diatoms,
They’re great for keeping ants out of your stuff while camping too. For some reason they won’t cross diatomaceous earth. A little ring around your trailer wheels, table legs, cooler, and you’re good to go.
The cenospheres and other like hollow silica spheres have a tree hugging aspect to them. They’re harvested from a waste product of steel manufacturing. Harvested. Now there’s a “green” sounding word if I ever heard one. Nice marketing spin. Plus they feel cool in your hand. Like a palm full of tiny ballbearings.
Quote:
Just remember;
Balloons are hollow, therefore sanding is easier, and a "rougher) finish (pore space) is good for resin adheasion.
Q-Cell is solid spheres and sands smoother. great for leash plugs etc. Not as good for glassing over unless your within the timeframe that is required for a chemical bond of resin instead of a mechanical bond.
Viola! (it’s like a very small cello)
THanks Salty Bat. This is what really mattered to me since I was about to coat a blank with q-cell/epoxy. Guess I need to get some microbaloons or some of that fly ash derivitive.
Would the Diamataceous Earth be better for a coating layer that requires adhesion, or as a pure filler?
Thanks,
Pat
Just Make sure you add a little bit of white pigment, as most Micro balloons I’ve used are off white and even a little on the “older Board” color side.
You will also have to experiment with the amount you add to the epoxy, as it doesn’t seem to thicken up the resin quite as much as Q-Cell does.
I usually add the Micro-baloons until it is about as thick as honey and then add some Q-Cell, one ounce at a time until it is like whip cream,. Then spread it on with a squege. Insure that you dont leave heavy ridges or completely take away resin from any areas.
*** If you are using “Quik Setting Epoxy” then measure out you ratios of resin to hardener in separate containers and add the Micro-baloons etc to the resin first. When it is a little thicker than desired, add the hardener and mix like hell to insure every bit is blended. This will give you more time to spread before the resin starts to harden. Also the pot will get real hot on you, so i suggest keeping the room cool or using a slower set hardener. Either way, work fast at getting the mix on your board so you can work with it in a thinner layer instead of in the pot where the shear volume causes it to get real hot*****
After it has dried, litely sand off the bits that form on the surface that may snag or poke through your glass cloth while glassing. (dont sand through layer though) Hand sand with 320 or 400 dry, and then blo off thuroughly.
Just remember, all you really need to do is seal off the foam pores, not put a thick shell on the board. Keep it simple and have fun.
Sorry for my variable density but I didn’t end up totally clear–does DAP Fast n Final include microballoons, and can be mixed into epoxy (to set fin boxes/plugs?) And if so, it cuts the exothermic heat? And also if so, the preferable consistency is of what sandwich ingredient again?
Hi Janklow -
Dap F&F does contain silicate microballoons as a filler. It also contains water, so I don’t think it would be wise to mix with epoxy as a filler.
Here is a cut/paste from a webpage…
Lightweight Spackle is made from microscopic glass bubbles and a low shrinkage binder. These can often cover large areas without the characteristic shrinkage cracks seen in regular spackles. This material has a different feel and working characteristics compared to traditional spackle products.
OK, thanks JM–I am still wondering where this microballoons is, in a usable medium for mixing up a peanut buttery fin setting compound.
(Diatomaceous earth is (I heard) such a small particle that it clogs the pores of insects (in their legs) which is their respiratory intake system, so they suffocate, so they avoid–supposed to work very well for flea infestations too, but not all that good for your pet so)
Quote:
(Diatomaceous earth is (I heard) such a small particle that it clogs the pores of insects (in their legs) which is their respiratory intake system, so they suffocate, so they avoid–supposed to work very well for flea infestations too, but not all that good for your pet so)
I definitely digress, sorry. Along the above lines, this is an FYI for pet owners. Several years ago there was a company selling a carpet treatment and promised no fleas for a year. My buddy got the very simple formula. 1 part table salt, 1 part borax. A light coat over the carpet, broom in, vacuum a few times. Works great. Do it once a year or so. Non-toxic. Supposedly it dehydrates the bugs and the eggs. We’ve used it for years.
Sorry, back on topic.