Hey Bruce,
I just wanted to acknowledge that your published fin position stats for quads has given me more confidence. Take a bow…
Here’s a current one, just prior to lamination. The customer has’nt even seen this yet…
Josh
Speedneedle, that’s a really nice looking board! I’d be stoked to see more pics when it’s finished and in it’s full glory. Are those HD foam inserts where you’re putting the FCS plugs?Or a different wood for aesthetic purposes? …just seem to be able to make out some wood-grain-like texture in there… curious.
Either way, it’s gonna be a beauty!
Hey BC,
Thats HD foam where the FCS will go. Rule No.1 is…no wood next to plugs, so hence the exposed cores…not under-skin. This is a precaution against the skins getting wet, even though this wood, Pawlonia, is more water-resistant than Balsa. I also insert them with a lining of glass. All means to insulate the EPS from any cuts in the lamination. (Same for legrope-plugs…)
Hi Speedneedle, You always show great stuff, thanks for sharing. You are so correct about Bruce stats, which helps us in finding some starting points and progressing from there.
Mahalo,Larry
nj_surfer, Nice work (-; Thought I would share some new outlines that I just came up with. Here’s a ruff foiled set, finished ones will be done in 2 days with next spray.
Mahalo, Larry
I’m going to throw in my two cents worth with my experience with the Bruce Mckee formula. I think that BM’s formula is a little more pivotal in feel by keeping the rear cluster closer together rather than further apart. I also think that if you move the rear fins apart that your board tends to surf more off the rail rather than the centre of the tail. So good luck experimenting!
Yeah Larry,
My beginnings as a shaper missed the first emergence of Quads in the early '80’s, and I resisted them in recent years, but the concepts make good sense.
(I did however have a 5-fin as a kid…count-em! FIVE! About 1983…We used to marvel at it, but I was too young to know if it worked or not…)
While I’m getting my arm twisted by customers, there’s still a lot to be said for a humble twin-fin, with rake, toe-in and positioning of just two.
I still have a gripe with the idea of loads of extra boxes or plugs all over the place…in a word…weight.
Josh
Yeah that makes sense; I was thinking that would be a problem… Seems the HD insert is a good idea in any board really. Do you work the glass lining them in such a way that it actually thoroughly seals it in, or just as a structural strengthener, as in the probox reinforcement guidelines…?
speaking of probox, Larry those quads look wicked. One of these days I’m going to try out some spitfire-style fins like that. Do you feel that spitfire quad fins lean towards performing better in any particular conditions? smaller, bigger…? Curious. I was checking out the hanalei quad fins; are they sort of a bigger-wave-oriented extension of the spitfires?
[quote=“$1”]
Yeah Larry,
My beginnings as a shaper missed the first emergence of Quads in the early '80’s, and I resisted them in recent years, but the concepts make good sense.
(I did however have a 5-fin as a kid…count-em! FIVE! About 1983…We used to marvel at it, but I was too young to know if it worked or not…)
While I’m getting my arm twisted by customers, there’s still a lot to be said for a humble twin-fin, with rake, toe-in and positioning of just two.
I still have a gripe with the idea of loads of extra boxes or plugs all over the place…in a word…weight.
ProBox-Larry Wrote:
Speedneedle, I agree in the weight issue, which is why the floater plug idea in multiple boxes is something I felt important to have in boxes not in use. I find it interesting that people talk about weight out of water verses in water. For example it takes 3 times as much resin to install FCS Plugs verses ProBoxes. After all installed and done you are a FEW grams different in weight installed and don’t forget the buoyancy factor in a blank and even more of a buoyancy factor in a EPS blank which is positive in water.
I rather have A LITTLE heavier part with less material to install and not BREAK. Than have a lighter part that needs more material and reinforcement to install which adds WEIGHT and then Breaks on top of that. So weight should be taken in account has a package: weight of part, weight of material amount to do install and fin. Not to forget the buoyancy factor of the blank being used.
I always find it amazing how people talk about weight and then forget the surfboard leash dragging thru the water. The kick pads that people put on their board. And my favorite is fins made out of G-10 which is circuit board material extremely heavy and not designed for the elements of surfing.
Yeah, Speedneedle I can relate to your weight issue completely. But in my world BREAK- AWAY concept does not apply or exist if I can help it. Light which translates to weak or as they say, “Break-Away Feature” is what people push hard to promote their product because that’s all they got is weight and nothing esle. So the question is how heavy is to heavy? And how light is light enough? My answer is when it breaks it’s to light(weak).
Keep up the good work speedneedle, I always enjoy following your stuff my friend.
Mahalo,Larry
Hey Larry,
The example which comes to mind, illustrating both our points, is Webbers big grim reaper twins…
I noticed they come with three FCS plugs and tabs per fin. That large, heavily raked fin must apply loads of force to the fin base as well as adding weight.
Customers are hauling me back away from super-light, but dead-weight still bothers me… maybe I’ll make up a batch of little carbon-corecell fins…
Josh
Hey, Speedneedle, I was thinking 3 FCS plugs are heavier than 1 ProBox. PM me your mailing address and I will send you a few sets of ProBox with a install kit. That will give you a opportunity to try ProBox for your customers and the ones who have FCS can still use their fins.
Mahalo.Larry
Hi Speedneedle, I got a email from Hawaii the other day from a rider who Love’s Eric Arakawa boards and ProBox with a set of radical twins. Are these the fins you are talking about?
Mahalo,Larry
Hi BCKyle, Are you talking about the Quadfires where all 4 fins are up right with same plan shape. Or the Blue set of Spit Quads here in Barry Vandenmueler’s board?
The Hanalei Quads are completely different than the Spitfire type fins. The Hanalei Quads have more rake with a fuller tip for drive down the line power and the Spitfire type fins are quick turning pivot plan shaped. Now the reason for the Spitquads is to get power from the front fins like a jib on a sail boat and the quick response of the pivot spitfire rear fin. Very important in the spitquad that placement is close together like Quadfires. NOTICE the tab inside the ProBox of the rear spitfire blue fin, it sticks out behind the back with the front of the fin straight down to the base for forward placement. Hope this helps you BCKyle. Thanks for asking.
Mahalo, Larry
[img_assist|nid=1030452|title=quad fin|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=640|height=346]I got these Scimitar fins from Brian @ GreenLight Surf Supply and they have blown my mind every time I have taken it out. Works best with the back fins at 0% cant.
Thanks,
Hi Larry; yeah I had the quadfires and the spit quads sort of muddled in my head; originally I was thinking of the quadfires in particular, as they were the ones I was checking out on the probox website. I don’t know much about fins (clearly…lol) but it seemed to me that the quadfires might be more suitable to surfing right in the pocket, top to bottom where the spit quads would maybe outperform them in down-the-line scenarios… Just conjecture. I like the jib analogy, makes good sense to me as I’ve worked and lived more on boats than I’ve worked with surfboards!
Thanks for the response, that certainly did clear up some of the differences between the spits/quadfires and the hanaleis. …Beautiful fins, all of 'em. Also, as a lover of twinfins, those big tall twinnies shown a couple posts ago look like a lot of fun…! Are they a standard ProBox fin? … and do they feature a similar flex pattern (quite flexy) out to the tips like those Webber grim reaper-ish models…?
Larry , you and Griffin got me going and I ground these out for my quad on the weekend.
Super enjoyable but hard work for a first timer - sheesh , props to guys that do it for a living !
I think it took 40 bucks worth of materials and about 4 hrs. work.
I’m not going to pretty them up , knowing me I’ll be tinkering with them , for sure.
Hey McKee, thanks for that post. Very informative. Cool for a novice like me to read the thinking behind the numbers. I actually went with diffirent placements to yours… the probox layout for speeddialres/canards, provided by someone else. But I used your numbers for a similar sized board as reference; the cluster layout is similar but slightly more forward, and the spacing between the back fins, as you mentioned, is diffirent. My goal with the canards was to follow Mandala’s (and other’s) notes on quad fin setups, where the canard’s cutaways and placement is derived from twin keels (as opposed to thrusters), giving a loose feel with the stability to go more vertical provided by the back fins. As my fin designs are similar to the speeddialers I wanted to go for a proven setup for these specifically. I rarely surf thrusters, and definitely not at a level where miniscule diffirences in performance is applicable, and the thruster feeling is not what I’m looking for in my ‘everyday’ boards.
Anyway, this is the first Quad that I’ll be able to surf for a long period, and my first shaped Quad (and only my second shape). As long as it’s not totally useless, I’ll have a decent starting point with this board for finding something that works, and that I like.
I’ve completed the hotcoat; doing final sanding and polishing. Should get it in the water by the weekend. Will post a detailed ride report after I spend some time with it.
sine.
~
Great looking fins Nuclear.
Larry,
Those fins look sick man. What’s the deal with them? Do they work well in larger surf, smaller days, loosen it up??? I was thinking about trying a set of twins on my last quad and those things look very appealing. Is www.proboxhawaii.com the best place to check out your fins?
Thanks and take it easy,
gus
"Hi Speedneedle, I got a email from Hawaii the other day from a rider who Love’s Eric Arakawa boards and ProBox with a set of radical twins. Are these the fins you are talking about?
Mahalo,Larry"
Hey Larry, no, not those ones, though the curved ones are a Webber design and would also apply excess force at the base, BTLOI. There’s another kind, big base, huge rake…Unfortunately Webber’s site is one where the pics can’t be lifted…alas…
Concerning the offer of some trial sets of pro-box…First and foremost is the critical need to have HD foam cores for reinforcement in #1 EPS…so, have you figured out a jig system to make these, or would I need to make my own?
A big factor in my choices towards FCS is the larger round holes and reinforcement cores are very easy and systematic to produce. Otherwise, yeah, bring 'em on, I’ll happily try Probox.
Josh