Hahahaha!!! What? You tryin’ to open that can o worms??!!!??!! Again!!! Ha!
Amen - You know that’s what this is all about…
TaylorOs “Do you, or anyone else who’ve tried a “Griffin” type set up V. a
“McKee” type set up, have an experiences to share about the difference
between the characteristics of a “Griffin” 4/5 fins V. a"McKee” type…"
Here are some Griffinish tests… http://www.mckeesurf.com/brucemckee/multisystem.htm Click on the ‘Click here for more exotic fin mixes’ white banner.
More 4/5 fin mixes here http://www.mckeesurf.com/brucemckee/longboards.htm
Crafty’s
"A bit off topichttp://www2.swaylocks.com/node/1025803 ..."
Bellow taken from ‘Nitty Gritty’
• Quads are faster due to having all fins driving through turns, or even just running across a wave face. All fins are propelling the board forward much like sails or propeller blades. This is because a board in these situations, is in a constant lateral drift and the water passing under the board, divides between the fins to pass out both sides of the tail while redirecting off the fins, rearward, to form thrust.
• The back fin of a thruster generally sits in the dividing line of this displaced water so provides little added speed but gives direction and control with a dragging effect.
To add… the board itself’s tilted angle also acts with a fin type effect converting the gravity drawn lateral drift into forward propulsion. The flex characteristics of a fin plus the foil shape and area, the amount of toe-in, will all determine the forward propulsion, the top end speed, much like the variations that users of swim-fins feel with the short quick thrusting ‘duck fin’ type to the longer pitched propulsion of a deep-sea divers swim fins. Also power boat owners know the differences in top end speed or low speed thrust due to different pitch and rake angle of the propellors that they can interchange on their motors…
Hoist a flat flexless sail with lateral wind... forward ho... Hoist a flexible cambered sail with lateral wind... forward ho ho .. Hoist a wing mast .....
Yowzer. B
…Three surfboard rear fins, all in line… interesting… Three back wheels on a car, all in line…
Photos courtesy of Griffin’s great site.
I wanted to reply to Larry’s post earlier…
"I rather have A LITTLE heavier part with less material to install and not BREAK. Than have a lighter part that needs more material and reinforcement to install which adds WEIGHT and then Breaks on top of that. So weight should be taken in account has a package: weight of part, weight of material amount to do install and fin. Not to forget the buoyancy factor of the blank being used.
I always find it amazing how people talk about weight and then forget the surfboard leash dragging thru the water. The kick pads that people put on their board. And my favorite is fins made out of G-10 which is circuit board material extremely heavy and not designed for the elements of surfing."
i TOTALLY agree with Larry’s comments above…
however… the follwoing i don’t concur with…
“Break-Away Feature” is what people push hard to promote their product because that’s all they got is weight and nothing esle. So the question is how heavy is to heavy? And how light is light enough? My answer is when it breaks it’s to light(weak).
you see, “break-away concepts” have never been a feature in any fin design except 4 ways … hence have never been valued for what what they are worth…
i’ll explain further…
4 ways has uniquely patented inter-discs that are DESIGNED to break on impact! that’s not a weakness, its actually one of our design Strengths.
both Pro-Box and 4 ways offer adustability and can offer so much more than any other “static” fin system…
when it comes to quads and 5-finner’s tho, i feel i wouldn’t want heaps of boxes installed in boards either as this would affect the board’s natural flex patterns and hence the size of your individual box foot-print becomes vital to over-all fin performance and flex. being able to adjust your existing fin placements will give heaps of additional performance never before relaized.
the reality is the choices are all out there for shapers to pick up and use, 1 fin, 2 fin, 3 fin , 4 and 5 fin… it’s all personal preference…
in my book the more options i have to play and work with the better…
keep up the good work Larry and would be stoked to Speedneedle’s opinion on adjustability when it comes to fin placement for both thruster’s quads and 5 fins.
regards
deano
Hi Dean,
Forgive me, I forget if it was you or Charles I met one time at my home in Torquay…
Anyway, I figured this would be of interest to you:- http://www2.swaylocks.com/forums/speedy-mrj-and-herb
Josh
Hi Dean, Nice to hear from you. Understand your breakaway concept, but in the ProBox world we talk about ProBox fins having a compression fit with a glass-on feel for drive and projection out of turns. I am still old school in some things and glass-ons don’t breakaway in the old school days. In surfing contests and point breaks far from shore, breakaway is not a feature I perfered to have. Mahalo,Larry
Hi Taylor, Haven’t forgot the ride report, actually Barry Vandenmulen will be logging in to share how he and his team rider came to the results of the ProBox 7 fin placements. Barry is creating his profile to come on Sways to share with you guys. As soon has Barry is approved with a user name he will post.
Stay Tune.
Mahalo, Larry
Hi Josh,
thanx for the post,
it must have been Jed you met in Torquay. Chrales is based on the Gold Coast.
Be good to get more advanced shapers and manufacturer’s like yourself using advanced fin system technologies…
it’ll seperate the men from the boys…
Regards
deano
Hi Dean, Nice to hear from you. Understand your breakaway concept, but in the ProBox world we talk about ProBox fins having a compression fit with a glass-on feel for drive and projection out of turns. I am still old school in some things and glass-ons don’t breakaway in the old school days. In surfing contests and point breaks far from shore, breakaway is not a feature I perfered to have. Mahalo,Larry
[/quote]
We at 4 ways also talk about a compression fit with a “glass-on feel” for drive and projection. Hence our tight-fitting and advanced range of composite fins we have developed for the surfer wanting to experience ultimate performance.
We all know, plastic fins “don’t do it!”
If you were that “old-school” you wouldn;t be using fin boxes period!
the reality is, u can’t be that “old-school” as your using fin boxes and The Internet… and that’s definitley NEW-SCHOOL.
Maybe it’s time to look beyond the “old-school” ways and rather see the benefits of a break-away system instead of your board’s fin being bust out and sitting int he repair shop for a week…or at worst have to change boards for the next heat instead of popping in another Inter-Disc and fin and being back in the water!
There’s pro’s and con’s to everything but at the end of the day, you WILL agree that there’s too much “NEW-SCHOOL” and good Fin System Technology out there to be constantly ignored by the “old-school”.
Regards
Deano
We at 4 ways also talk about a compression fit with a “glass-on feel” for drive and projection. Hence our tight-fitting and advanced range of composite fins we have developed for the surfer wanting to experience ultimate performance.
We all know, plastic fins “don’t do it!”
If you were that “old-school” you wouldn;t be using fin boxes period!
the reality is, u can’t be that “old-school” as your using fin boxes and The Internet… and that’s definitley NEW-SCHOOL.
Maybe it’s time to look beyond the “old-school” ways and rather see the benefits of a break-away system instead of your board’s fin being bust out and sitting int he repair shop for a week…or at worst have to change boards for the next heat instead of popping in another Inter-Disc and fin and being back in the water!
There’s pro’s and con’s to everything but at the end of the day, you WILL agree that there’s too much “NEW-SCHOOL” and good Fin System Technology out there to be constantly ignored by the “old-school”.
Regards
Deano
[/quote]
Hi Dean, Always interesting reading some of your posts. I think you took my comment “OLD SCHOOL” out of context. My comment applied to my thoughts about a glass-on feel ONLY, which is old school in today’s surfing world. What I still have a hard time understanding how “GLASS-ON” feel and “BREAKAWAY CONCEPT” can be used in the same sentence, didn’t realize GLASS-ONS broke away. Don’t get me wrong Dean, BREAKAWAY design is not a bad thing and some people like that feature. I just don’t offer it, but if someone wanted their ProBox fin to have this feature it’s a easy thing to do.
So Dean you are right, if I was stuck in a OLD SCHOOL world I wouldn’t be using a Fin Box, Internet or even driving a car! “LOL”. I guess Dean, with almost 40 years of making fins for the surfing industry. I can see as having enough experience to apply OLD SCHOOL WISDOM to NEW SCHOOL TECHNOLOGY.
Just my opinion (-:
Mahalo,Larry
Good post Larry,this confirms it for me,pro box it is.
fiberglass fin co. ? not to mention any “advanced compostie” FCS fin.
I havent heard of a probox that came out or broke while surfing, though I acknowledge I havent heard everything. The fins have always failed first from my observations (Larry can you confirm this?), even though they arent “designed” to be breakaway.
This thread (http://www2.swaylocks.com/node/1027306) had some good pics of probox/fins that had ran into reef, but they arent up anymore…Fins were destroyed, boxes intact.
Hit the reef during a contest, put in a new fin, MAYBE a new insert at worst and get right back in the water.
Im not trying to attack you or “bromote” larry or probox, just responding with my opinion. I really like the concept of 4WFS, and yes the breakaway is definitely desirable in some circumstances, im not trying to argue that point. Good luck to both of you and keep up the hard work, competition is good for the consumers!
Thanx for that comment…
The bottom line is, the NEWER FIN SYSTEM TECHNOLOGIES offer so much more than the “static” and “older” more-established fin systems…
the sooner shapers realize the benefits of what 4ways (4wfs.com for those who need to know) and Pro-Box have to offer then the world of customization and better service to the surfers will be realized!
Regards
deano
Ian can we get a side view of those fins? I’d like to make a pair and try them on my quad.
‘0’ cant on the rear?
Les
Re: 5 fin to quad experience…
I have a set of Future Vector II’s that make my board move GREAT in under 6’ surf. If over 6’ or a steaper face it tends to slip so I put an 8" center fin and it turns just like the Quad but has the hold that I need.
Les
Thanks durbs, I forgot about the pic showing what happens when a Kite Surfer hits a reef at 25 miles a hr. with a normal glass job using ProBox, I guess you can say ProBox has a “BREAKAWAY FEATURE” . Fin Broke out , but no board damage.
Mahalo,Larry
This discussion is right up my alley. Am joining in the home shaped, bat tail, quad fin fun. Been looking at the McKee formulas and here is my question…
What does one use as the “starting point” for measuring the distance from the tail for the back fins? The furthest point of the diamond? Or a virtual straight line drawn from the 2 corners of the tail?
Hope this makes sense
Thanks
Marcel
Larry, that's great!
i know we at 4 ways specifically designed the discs to break so that no damage was done to the fin, so the fin didn't need to be replaced, just the inter-disc, which is a lot cheaper.
Once the grub screws pull through the base of the tab, it always becomes a week-point in the fin and a lot easier for your fin to come "loose".
but, that's great to see that your boxes withstood that force, i am so glad that the newer fin systems have been so progressive in this regards.
our new Nano box under the glass version will be released shortly to take on the fusion and futures systems...
can't wait!
keep up the good work,
Regards
deano
Marcel,
the measurement is taken from the point of the diamond (end of board at stringer).
I would also add the 0.5 mm extra distance (3/16") to the length given on the formula if the diamond had a lot of angle on it. This compensates for reduced area compared to a rounded square tail or similar. Would be the same as I’d do for a round pin, depends on the overall tail area.
For pure quads the whole cluster can come forward a touch. Depends on your own initial testing of the formula as a gauge of stiffness. Fin sizes etc can balance up the end result.
Cheers.
Sick sick board!!!!
The arakawa twin.
I have a mckee style quad, and being a twin fin surfer, i find the best fins for me are big big in the front, and tiny in the rear.