question about patenting a design

General Discussion
1

hey guys, i need some advice,

 

I have design a new kind of fin that really works good, its a bit different from any other fins on the market, i originally designed it for lis fish type fishes because this is what i shape the most but it really works good on everything so far, its not that i want to patent the shape of the fin but more the concept, it has a mechanical part in the design and it really took me a while to make it fly . I have been shaping for 15 years now, shaped for some of the biggest name in the industry and its hard making a decent living… this design is well advance compare to whatever else on the market right now.

So my question is how do i protect myself but still be able to show the design to fins giants and possibly mass produce it? is anyone ever deal with this kind of stuff, I have been testing this for more than 5 years and never showed it around in fear of getting it stolen by some shark and loosing the chance to maybe send my kids to private school one day…

any advice would be great!

 

cheers!!

2

**good  luck ‘’                haaa’’ **

3

IMO

Sell it , the design that is…

or

come here and make 50’000 of them, mark them up $20 and flood the market with them,
(so by the time anyone else thinks of copying it, you have allready made a million bucks)

 

 

 

4

Before you show anyone, speak to a lawyer, specifically an IP lawyer. It might cost you a few hundred bucks just to sit down and talk to them but they will be able to give you better advice than anyone here. 

Patents can be quite expensive to obtain. 

If you don’t have the money to get the patent, set up large scale production and then market the actual product, once you have the patent you could sell the idea to a bigger company like Mitch said or seek investors to foot the costs. 

Before you speak to anyone in the industry about your idea, I would strongly recommend seeing that IP lawyer. They will be able to set you up with any confidentiality agreements and make sure you don’t get your ideas stolen. 

I believe there has recently been a case where a backyard inventor had a great wetsuit heating idea and tried to sell it to Rip Curl. They didn’t end up buying the rights from him, but not long after they released their own version -the H-Bomb which. I can’t remember where I heard that story and remember Rip Curl strongly denying the claims. 

But I would hate to see that happen to you. good luck

5

ditto surfinggreen...all of it.

 

Josh

www.joshdowlingshape.com

 

6

u can go to the us patent office website, and download information and forms for a presumptive patent.

doesn't require a whole lot of either legal or technical expertise to do this.  there is a fee, of course.

gives you protection for a year or so while you are making a formal patent application, and is sufficient to establish the originality of your device and to allow you to talk with possible funders or purchasers while giving you legal protections against infringement.

if i talked with anyone about a device, i would have them sign an acknowledgement and  non disclosure form for added protection.

and yes, i did my own patent, and yes it is a pain in the ass and no i did not make any $$$$ off it.

7

Problem with patents is that you have to use lawyers to enforce them, and that gets real expensive real fast.  

8

The attorneys will tell you what you want to hear.  PM me for the truth about surf related IP.

Sickdog

9

A fin with a mechanical element, is no different than a rudder  with a free moving mechanical element, to maintain laminar flow.

Point is, it's been done.   On boats, and I would not be surprised if it were tried by windsurfers.  Those guys have tried everything!

Those who advise making the product, and flooding the market, are on target IMO.   Establish yourself as the developer/designer,

and urge the buyer/market, to accept no substitute!    If, as stated, you've shaped for ''some of the biggest names'', get them

riding the fin, promote that, and cut them in on any profit.    Good luck with it.   If really is ''the better mouse trap'', you'll do fine.  

10

Hi Louis,

I’m a patent attorney by day (when I’m not screwing around with making surfboards or surfing them:-), but I’m in South Africa.

Don’t disclose your invention/design before you go and see a patent attorney in your country.

There are pros and cons of patenting (cons being mainly the cost and the time and effort involved), but you won’t be able to prevent people from copying your product without intellectual property protection.  

Most of the people who have commented above are partially correct: making money out of inventions is difficult and expensive -but it can be done.  

You need to ask yourself (a) whether enough people will want your invention and be prepared to pay for it, and (b) whether other people will want to copy it.  If the answer to these questions is “yes”, you need to consider patenting it.  If the answer is “no”, then don’t bother.

Hope that helps.

Tim

 

 

11

Louis

Remember, I am “from OZ”

Currently residing in CHINA

I still have some morals and personaly know the owner / manager of a fin manufacturer who makes very high tech fins for very Reputible brands.

feel free to email me ( I dont want designs , i dont care , nor do I have the investment money to bother copying anything new)

they can CNC fins from slabs of glass, have molds for injection, have cutting machines to cut the glass and hexalite core etc
Not much they cant do.

I am , MitchFromOZ   AT   Hotmail   DOT   com

 

12

Hello Louis -

 

I am a patent attorney in the United States. Tim is right. It is absolutely critical that you do not disclose your invention publicly or offer it for sale prior to consulting with a United States patent attorney. Certain disclosures and other uses (among other things) can trigger the running of what are called statutory bar dates. If one of these bars is triggered, you lose your right for patent protection in the United States (and probably most other countries throughout the world) irrevocably.

 

As for what peterg wrote above, he is likely referring to a provisional patent application which pends for one year and is never examined (i.e., it expires after one year - a “regular” application must be filed before the year expires). Note, however, that substance-wise, a provisional application has very particular disclosure requirements which must be met in order for the provisional application to have the intended legal effect. Therefore, if you are serious about this, I highly recommend not attempting to prepare and file a provision application on your own. I also cannot warn you enough - do not use invention submission companies. Most will charge you at least as much - sometimes twice as much - as an actual patent attorney, but in reality they provide almost no true service and are effectively stealing your money. Check www.uspto.gov - sometimes there is a list of companies there which have been identified by the Patent Office as fraudulent.

 

If you want a bit of time/counseling for free (on the phone), I’d be glad to give it (within limits). Just PM me or something.

 

Matt

13

Also, Louis, before disclosing the invention to anyone, please do use a non-disclosure (confidentiality) agreement. I think I wrote this is another thread on Swaylocks somewhere, but, most inventors I know that haven’t taken such precautions have been ripped off by business partners, their manufacturer, etc.

 

In short, using contracts and intellectual property protection is the best way to protect yourself here.

 

Matt

14

I like the guy that said good luck.

 

go under cover

talk to no one

without

security clearance.

get a big fedora

an overcoat with

big inside pockets

cary everythin with you to 

a bank downtown get a safety 

deposit box,change clothes before leaving the bank

let no one I mean no one know who you are what

you’ve been doing,when you go where ,how you get there or why.

 

you are about to embark on a life of mystery

I for one am envious the beautiful women the situations

the cars the exotic locales the intrigue is only part of the story.

 

the fin,dont ever say fin again in mixed company.

the walls have ears,you are being followed everywhere.

may the force be with you,see you in prague,amsterdam,taipei

but dont let me recognise you

I for one would copy your design

in a heartbeat and with the help of my international cartel

will be selling fins on the streets of bogota by next friday…

 

 

oh golly this is great.

…ambrose…

 

you are likely to make considerably more money on the book!

has anybody approached you for the rights on the book.

 

oh wait … fin ,I just realized,…I thought you said flan.

15

 

What PeterG said, and …

Cant show it to anyone unless you’ve already applied for the patent.

Patent forms ask that, or at least the Patent Lawyer will.

If you’ve pitched the product or have took it to a show, you can always lie but it may come back to bite you

when someone challenges the patent. Otherwise if you have shown it, its not patentable.

Once you mail the application its ‘patent pending’ and you can show it.(maybe not that day, but look it up)

If you fill out your own patent forms however shoddily, they can be revised…I do believe(check up on it).

About a decade ago or more, the patenting process took about 18 months before they reviewed you claim

but it may be less now.

 

  1. Buy books on patents

2)Oonce your product gets some serious nods and you have confidence, spend more money on revising the patent, preferable with a Patent Lawyer.

    Revisions can be done before the Patent Office reviews your claim.

  1. dont call any 1-800’s for any companies called Inventors Submission Corporation, etc…they are wolfs preying upon

    vulrnerable people. They are scamsters just try to bleed you, no matter how terrible you product idea is.

4)Ask more patent questions on Swaylocks if you want bad inexperienced advice.

revision: whoops just noticed mattp’s posts!

 

 

16

You're going to have to see a patent attorney if you're serious. It costs some $s, but it's the right way to do it. Unfortunately, you'll probably find that there's already a patent that affects your concept. Just because the product's not out there doesn't mean somebody else didn't patent it in the past.

I speak from experience also, about 20 years ago I engaged an attorney and did this process. Didn't work out, but I don't regret it at all. Ya gotta try to find out. Good luck.

17

…but, will it fit in a probox is the real question???

18

As an engineer I have been involved in some patent stuff in the past. Maintaining your timeline and notes to establish your claims is vital, since you will probably be hit with prior art claims to void your patent (even after it is issued, assuming that it is issued). This is why most engineers are requried to carry aroung notebooks and keep them upto date.

Patents and all that go along with them are a major pain. I have to agree with the previous posters who advised you to flood the market and run. Like I’ve told my son “All you need is for a million people to send you a buck, then your done.”

Good luck, this can be an exciting time in your life.

19

thanks guys lots of great comment, its true, its just a fin but its a great fin. 

ill go talk to a lawyer…

 

cheers!

20

Louis -

 

Most patents address incremental or small improvements in previously existing “things”, but this should not discourage you (as it appears it hasn’t). If your improvement - even if it is only structurally different from previous fins in a minor way - adds improvement in functionality (or something else) to fin design, then it is quite possible (perhaps even likely) that you have conceived of/invented patentable subject matter.

 

If any patent you obtain “covers” this particular improved feature (even if it is a small feature), and that feature is what is commercially desirable (that is the key), then it is quite possible that you end up with something valuable patent-wise. In any event, keep in mind, having a pending application by itself gives you significantly more leverage in business negotiations than does just having the idea or even an experimental prototype alone.

 

Also FYI - function aside, if your fin also has a unique ornamental appearance, you can also potentially obtain design patent protection under U.S. law as well (for the ornamental aspects). This is notably significantly cheaper and easier to obtain than a utility patent (but often with narrower scope of protection). There are limits to design and utility patent overlap, but that discussion is not something I’m going to get into at the moment.

 

Matt