Noodle - Are you getting your E.P.S. blanks from Henry Fry in Pasadena TX.? I am wanting to try to shape my first board but the cost of getting a Clark blank is a killer. I can get a blank from Henry alot cheaper. 2 questions on epoxy. 1. Is it alot different to shape the E.P.S. as opposed to a poly. blank? Do you use the same techniques? 2. I have never glassed a board and I have heard some nasty stories about epoxy. Is it difficult to use? Thanks ahead of time. Do you live in the Houston area? Thanks again, P.V.
I pick up my first epoxy blank on Friday (hopefully). I am getting a 2lb. bead foam blank from a guy I just met. He has been doing epoxy for many years and his board are sweet. He has been giving me advice on things to watch out for: 1.Be very careful if you do your cutouts with a circular saw. He says that if you go too fast with it the foam can bind and if you force it through the stress can be directed into the blank and a big chunk can snap off. He suggest just using a cross cut hand saw initally. 2.You don’t need a drum (sander type) on your planer, but go slow and don’t pull the planer forward and backward as you’re doing your passes. Just take forward passes. 3.After you plane get as close as you can to what you want with 60 grit paper, then go to 100, then 220, then use fine screen if you want. The foam shapes better with sandpaper rather than course screen. 4.DON’T mix water with your spackle. By mix water with your spackle you are trapping moisture under the spackle shell which can lead to delam down the road. He said that it will take longer to work the spackle in but worth it. He suggested Lighthouse Products - Lightweight Spackle (won’t yellow). 5. Your ratio is 2:1, and you have to make sure to mix it well. If you don’t your resin will never really set. It will feel like dried rubber cement on your board. He uses a electric mixer. 6.Cheater (what he called it) your blank after your spackle has dried and you have finished it out. He described cheatering as wiping a thin layer of epoxy resin on the blank, either with a paper towel or with a brush applied lightly, like a traditional hot coat. Your epoxy lam will stick way better to this cheater layer, compared to spackle. 7.DON’T use poly resin for a sanding layer. Even if you roughen up or skip sand your lamination, you won’t get the shiney areas in between the weave and poly won’t bond to this. You run the risk of sheeting,(where sections of your poly hotcoat will flake off). He says that he has seen whole board peel like a banana. Just use your regular 2:1 epoxy resin mix for a sanding layer. It will be a little more difficult to sand, but your board will be much more structuraly sound. Plus if you have any little pinholes in your lam, poly can penetrated this melting the foam under your cloth that you won’t see until you put your heel through the deck. (Cheatering will limit this, but won’t help the peeling.) I will stop here. But these were the things that stuck in my head, having never done epoxy before. If I run across anything else that seems relevant I will post. I hope some of this has helped. Good luck.
My guess is that I get my blanks at the same place as Matt D. I’ve gotten the same advice in the past. I only use epoxy and I find it is pretty easy to work with. It has a long working time provided you pour it all out of the cup (don’t allow it to heat and gel). As for the blank, EPS takes some getting used to if you’ve never used it, but don’t fear it. The key to it is the spackle. After shaping the finish will be somewhat rough no matter how good you get it. The spackle makes it all better. I recommend several light coats. Allow to dry fully and sand between them.
After the lamination are you using polyester or continuing with the epoxy as a fill coat? Is the sanding of the epoxy filler a point of concern or is it no different than finish work with polyester resin? I’m just not clued in on where the issues of senstization comes in when working with epoxy. Thanks for your input. TS>>> My guess is that I get my blanks at the same place as Matt D. I’ve gotten > the same advice in the past. I only use epoxy and I find it is pretty easy > to work with. It has a long working time provided you pour it all out of > the cup (don’t allow it to heat and gel). As for the blank, EPS takes some > getting used to if you’ve never used it, but don’t fear it. The key to it > is the spackle. After shaping the finish will be somewhat rough no matter > how good you get it. The spackle makes it all better. I recommend several > light coats. Allow to dry fully and sand between them.
Noodle - Are you getting your E.P.S. blanks from Henry Fry in Pasadena > TX.? I am wanting to try to shape my first board but the cost of getting a > Clark blank is a killer. I can get a blank from Henry alot cheaper. 2 > questions on epoxy. 1. Is it alot different to shape the E.P.S. as opposed > to a poly. blank? Do you use the same techniques? 2. I have never glassed > a board and I have heard some nasty stories about epoxy. Is it difficult > to use? Thanks ahead of time.>>> Do you live in the Houston area? Thanks again, P.V. Yes, Fry custom cuts my EPS blanks from my rocker templates. Henry and Wyman have lots of good stock blanks, and they are free with building advice. Fry also sells glass, resin, boxes, plugs, and fins. I got into epoxy the same way you are. Shipping a Clark blank to the third coast doubles the blank cost. I’m sure glad to be forced into this position. My epoxy boards are holding up lots better than poly boards. And I’ve learned a lot about rocker design. I only have a blade drum on my planer. Because it tends to gouge, I keep it about 1/10" away from the final shape. After that, I use 60 to 120 grit floor finishing sandpaper against EPS. For removing foam, I glue sandpaper to wood shapes with contact cement. For finish sanding I glue 1/2" backpacker sleeping pad foam to wood shapes, and glue the sandpaper onto the foam pads. I use fresh lightweight exterior spackling paste to fill gouges. Whether you mix it with water or not, allow it to thoroughly dry. Applying it in thinner layers speeds the drying time. So does heat and air. I use a food processor to mix spackle and purified water for finishing coats. Tap water will discolor spackle. I apply a couple of finishing coats before final sanding with extra-fine sandpaper on a squishy sponge. The only UV inhibited epoxy I can buy gels in 15 minutes or less, so I mix it with cheaper slow-cure epoxy for extra glassing time. I use 3 and four layers of 6oz glass and thoroughly sand the glass before lapping, and before the sanding coat. I use Silmar poly resin for sanding and finishing coats because it costs 1/3 as much as epoxy, and because it inhibits UV light which would damage the epoxy lam resin. Sanding the lam job thoroughly is the key to making the poly resin adhere to it. It works. Some of the pros probably don’t want to spend that much time. Good luck.
After the lamination are you using polyester or continuing with the epoxy > as a fill coat? Is the sanding of the epoxy filler a point of concern or > is it no different than finish work with polyester resin? I’m just not > clued in on where the issues of senstization comes in when working with > epoxy. Thanks for your input.>>> TS Liquid epoxy is dangerous stuff. I got sensitized and sprouted a tomatoe face. Now I use gloves to my elbows, and a respirator, along with fan forced ventilation. Sanded epoxy is probably no more dangerous than sanded poly. Poly will work for a sanding coat IF you sand the lam thoroughly. You have to use enough glass that sanding it doesn’t threaten lam integrity. But I think a proper EPS/epoxy system requires multiple glass layers.
After the lamination are you using polyester or continuing with the epoxy > as a fill coat? Is the sanding of the epoxy filler a point of concern or > is it no different than finish work with polyester resin? I’m just not > clued in on where the issues of senstization comes in when working with > epoxy. Thanks for your input.>>> TS I was told that after lamination, your sanding layer should be another coat of epoxy resin. The reason some guys use poly resin is that, as you know, with styrene added it is easy and faster to sand. Epoxy sanding layers can fish eye if you get any contaminates in your mix. Epoxy is more difficult to mix up and sand at first. I was told you have to kind of scuff or cut up the finish with 60 grit (you won’t see any dust flying), then when you do that you can move to a higher grit paper and it will sand out like poly. The poly is easier to mix, faster to work with, and easier to sand out, but you have to worry about sheeting (as I described in a previous post) and when you think about it, you are pouring a substance over your core, that if exposed will melt it (better not have any pinholes in your lam). Plus straight epoxy is much stronger than poly let alone poly that has been thinned with styrene. I was told that the best way to apply the epoxy sanding layer is to get a cooler pour in really hot water, then set the bucket with the epoxy resin in it for about 5 mins. Take it out let it set for about a min., mix your hardner in and it will pour out like water. Allowing you to flow it out easily, minimizing the amount of resin you need. The whole fish eye thing is what has me buggin’. Hopefully someone will post reasons why this happens, so I can avoid it.
Hey Noodle, I have some questions. If you don’t mind. Have you ever done a epoxy sanding layer? Did you have a problem with fish eye? What causes fish eye? What kind of alcohol do you wipe the board down with after you sand your lam? Have you ever heard of cheatering? Will a surform tear the foam? Any Info is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Will a surform tear the foam? I am a complete novice compared to many contributors here, but I have used sureforms a lot. I shape polystyrene blanks entirely by hand with a sureform and sanding paper. It will kind of tear/chunk the foam if you don’t know how to use it. Just take a scrap piece after cutting out he template and play with it. It is easy to get the hang of it. Rotating it at about 45 degrees (kind of pushing sideways a little) will give clean cuts and remove foam fast. Light pressure straight away is good for fine stuff. Lightly pulling it backwards only is good for very fine stuff. Always use a new, sharp blade too.
Hey Noodle, I have some questions. If you don’t mind. Have you ever done a > epoxy sanding layer? Did you have a problem with fish eye? What causes > fish eye? What kind of alcohol do you wipe the board down with after you > sand your lam? Have you ever heard of cheatering? Will a surform tear the > foam? Any Info is greatly appreciated. Thanks. Sorry Mike, I only have some of your answers. I’ve never done an epoxy sanding layer. I considered a poly sanding layer preferable if it bonds and works. It does, so I never did otherwise. Having said that, I don’t know what epoxy fisheye might be. I assume it’s like a resin bubble? Maybe a popped bubble? Is it merely those sunken fingerprint marks. I’ve wiped down various layers with denatured alcohol before the next layer, but with mixed results. The DNA picks up trash and makes a mud with it, which your rag deposits someplace on the board. The best policy is to sand each layer thoroughly, and blow it off hard with compressed air. Don’t touch it with your skin before the next layer goes on. Because I started out on EPS, I never started using a surform to shape. I never used a surform for anything but bondo work. The idea of a surform is to remove material without grinding it into the surface. With beaded EPS, removing foam probably means removing WHOLE EPS beads. When I do that with course sandpaper I start stripping out chunks. That works, but only way above the intended blank shape. I’ve only now heard of “cheatering”. The rep at Daka Epoxy told me something about epoxy that turns out to be true. He said that epoxy resin is an excellent bonding agent for all surfaces except hardened epoxy. He said that all agents, including epoxy, bond poorly to hardened epoxy. I can’t see why you would want to prime a blank with a substance which resists being bonded to. You would have to sand the epoxy to make it accept the next agent, but sanding would probably remove all of the “cheatering” layer if it is so thin. Only one thing comes to mind. “Cheatering” could be used to seal an EPS blank if you were planning to glass with poly resin. Even then, osmosis would probably be enough to carry enough styrene through the epoxy to damage the blank. Even without damaging the blank, epoxy would be a poor bonding surface for the lam job.
Interesting I heard just the opposite (that the epoxy lam will bond better to this cheater layer and will be stronger, compared to bonding to spackle). I guess it comes down to how you prep this cheater layer. I gotta turn my new epoxy buddy on to the site. Like I posted earlier, he has been doing epoxy a long time and swears by this method. This site would be a better forum to pick his brain, compared to a crowded factory. I will have to investigate further. Thanks for all your info.
I’m afraid I don’t know exactly what the primer is and I’ve never used epoxy to glass a board but… A friend who does a lot of epoxy boards (and repairs lots of broken SurfTechs) was showing me test samples of glassed foam he had done with different layup schedules using epoxy resin. He swore that the primer he had tried on some of the samples prior to glassing made a big difference. Apparently the guy he buys his epoxy from turned him on to it.
Noodle: You are really getting hammered today with Epoxy questions. Thanks for taking the time for the detailed information. One more from the gallery: Color options with epoxy. I assume you can do wonders with paints to cover some of the flaws etc. but do the same types of paints and application methods work on the EPS with spackle applied? Likewise, is the option of tinting or color opaque in the lamination a possibility? I was reading a great article on Greg Loehr in one of the giveaway surf mags- ESM (Eastern Surf Mag.) September 2001. An interesting view on the future of epoxy in the future of board building. Thanks again. Tom>>> Sorry Mike, I only have some of your answers.>>> I’ve never done an epoxy sanding layer. I considered a poly sanding layer > preferable if it bonds and works. It does, so I never did otherwise. > Having said that, I don’t know what epoxy fisheye might be. I assume it’s > like a resin bubble? Maybe a popped bubble? Is it merely those sunken > fingerprint marks.>>> I’ve wiped down various layers with denatured alcohol before the next > layer, but with mixed results. The DNA picks up trash and makes a mud with > it, which your rag deposits someplace on the board. The best policy is to > sand each layer thoroughly, and blow it off hard with compressed air. > Don’t touch it with your skin before the next layer goes on.>>> Because I started out on EPS, I never started using a surform to shape. I > never used a surform for anything but bondo work. The idea of a surform is > to remove material without grinding it into the surface. With beaded EPS, > removing foam probably means removing WHOLE EPS beads. When I do that with > course sandpaper I start stripping out chunks. That works, but only way > above the intended blank shape.>>> I’ve only now heard of “cheatering”. The rep at Daka Epoxy told > me something about epoxy that turns out to be true. He said that epoxy > resin is an excellent bonding agent for all surfaces except hardened > epoxy. He said that all agents, including epoxy, bond poorly to hardened > epoxy. I can’t see why you would want to prime a blank with a substance > which resists being bonded to. You would have to sand the epoxy to make it > accept the next agent, but sanding would probably remove all of the > “cheatering” layer if it is so thin.>>> Only one thing comes to mind. “Cheatering” could be used to seal > an EPS blank if you were planning to glass with poly resin. Even then, > osmosis would probably be enough to carry enough styrene through the epoxy > to damage the blank.>>> Even without damaging the blank, epoxy would be a poor bonding surface for > the lam job.
Tom, I enjoy this stuff. I’ve only colored directly onto the blank so far. I think Herb or a Tom mentioned that spackle shows color differently than polyurethane foam. Spackle shows color differently than EPS as well. One reason for painting a couple of coats of spackle onto a shaped blank is to thoroughly fill the holes and depressions. The other reason is to make spackle the standard base for your acrylic color. Even then, the color absorption rate is inconsistent enough that two acrylic color coats are helpful. I’ve seen epoxy coloring agents advertized on supplier websites, so I’m sure mixing color with epoxy would work. Because of Herb Spitzer’s advice I went to Texas Art Supply and bought some powdered color pigment. It isn’t cheap. I think paint makers mix powdered pigment into various bases to form their paints. Instead, I could do the mixing and avoid having 10 colors sitting around in 10 types of paint each. I’m giong to try an automotive catylized lacquer transparent color coat first. I hesitate to try a resin tint in epoxy because my layups have so many glass layers. I would need to lam one color layer separate from the other glass layers. Because of the slick epoxy surface, monolithic multi-layer lams are much stronger. And sanding the colored glass would make its transparency inconsistent. If anybody has any insight into solving this dilemma I would love to hear it.>>> Noodle:>>> You are really getting hammered today with Epoxy questions. Thanks for > taking the time for the detailed information. One more from the gallery:>>> Color options with epoxy. I assume you can do wonders with paints to cover > some of the flaws etc. but do the same types of paints and application > methods work on the EPS with spackle applied? Likewise, is the option of > tinting or color opaque in the lamination a possibility? I was reading a > great article on Greg Loehr in one of the giveaway surf mags- ESM (Eastern > Surf Mag.) September 2001. An interesting view on the future of epoxy in > the future of board building. Thanks again.>>> Tom
thoughts from a total epoxy novice, I have done 3 boards with eps foam and epoxy. I did them all without any real previous experience or input. I used all the same tools I used on my poly blank (planer,surform, sandpaper) and then filled it with waterdowned spacklin. Painted with some cheapo craft acrlyic from WalMart and glassed it with epoxy lam and hotcoat. (sorry noddle only did 2layer top and 1 layer bottom) The epoxy gives a good working time and sands easy. So far, no problem with the hotcoat not adhereing to the lam. The boards seem sound, granted they aren’t getting the use I would like for them too but I put’em in the water when I can. So, far they seem to be holding up. The EPS foam defintely has a different feel when shaping, but once you get use to it, not much different. The only thing I have found is the epoxy won’t shine up to well no matter how much sanding you do or how fine to take it too.
Yes, Fry custom cuts my EPS blanks from my rocker templates. Henry and > Wyman have lots of good stock blanks, and they are free with building > advice. Fry also sells glass, resin, boxes, plugs, and fins.>>> I got into epoxy the same way you are. Shipping a Clark blank to the third > coast doubles the blank cost. I’m sure glad to be forced into this > position. My epoxy boards are holding up lots better than poly boards. And > I’ve learned a lot about rocker design.>>> I only have a blade drum on my planer. Because it tends to gouge, I keep > it about 1/10" away from the final shape. After that, I use 60 to 120 > grit floor finishing sandpaper against EPS. For removing foam, I glue > sandpaper to wood shapes with contact cement. For finish sanding I glue > 1/2" backpacker sleeping pad foam to wood shapes, and glue the > sandpaper onto the foam pads. - So you can’t use sanding screen to do rails?>>> I use fresh lightweight exterior spackling paste to fill gouges. Whether > you mix it with water or not, allow it to thoroughly dry. Applying it in > thinner layers speeds the drying time. So does heat and air. I use a food > processor to mix spackle and purified water for finishing coats. Tap water > will discolor spackle. I apply a couple of finishing coats before final > sanding with extra-fine sandpaper on a squishy sponge. - Do you tape off the stringer before spackling?>>> The only UV inhibited epoxy I can buy gels in 15 minutes or less, so I mix > it with cheaper slow-cure epoxy for extra glassing time. I use 3 and four > layers of 6oz glass and thoroughly sand the glass before lapping, and > before the sanding coat. I use Silmar poly resin for sanding and finishing > coats because it costs 1/3 as much as epoxy, and because it inhibits UV > light which would damage the epoxy lam resin. Sanding the lam job > thoroughly is the key to making the poly resin adhere to it. It works. > Some of the pros probably don’t want to spend that much time. - Before you apply the hotcoat you sand down the lam. completly? - Can you use the UV curing hotcoat resin from suncure?>>> Good luck. Having never glassed a board I am trying to get as much info. as possible. Because I really have no clue wear to even start. Thanks, Paul
- So you can’t use sanding screen to do rails? Yes, you can. Lots of shapers do. Like a much smoother surform, sanding screen removes material without grinding it into the surface. I use sand paper because I don’t find this grind process causes as much blank damage as other shaping processes such as planing stringer. Using a foam sandpaper backer allows my sandpaper to contort over removed materil until I expell it.>>> - Do you tape off the stringer before spackling? No. Sanding the spackle coat with foam backing depresses the spackled blank EPS down to the stringer level, where I sand the stringer clean.>>> - Before you apply the hotcoat you sand down the lam. completly? - Can you > use the UV curing hotcoat resin from suncure? The lam surface will be a grid of tiny resin surface depressions. I merely sand the lam surface until I sand through all ofthose tiny depressions. In other words sand through the epoxy surface everywhere, no deeper. If you don’t sand far enough, then hotcoat, under the surface of your finished board you will see a grid of tiny reflective epoxy mirrors. That’s a bad thing. When sanding your lam job look for these tiny mirrored depressions. If you see them, keep sanding. Yes, I hotcoat with Suncure.>>> Having never glassed a board I am trying to get as much info. as possible. > Because I really have no clue wear to even start. Thanks, Paul Are you using multiple fiberglass layers? Have you worked out your lap schedule? Make each layer larger than the one under it by about 1/2". After the bottom lam hardens, sand the lap area. Then lap the top over, staggering the glass layers so that the rail laps have an equal number of glass layers as the rest of the board. Too few layers make the rails too weak. Too many layers make the board too heavy. So draw those lap lines, overlapped 1/2", on a couple of pieces of thin paper. Label the number of glass layers between each line, then lay the papers over each other as you would lap the rails. Add layers and adjust paper positions until the lap layers equal glass layers elsewhere. Having gotten that technical, deviating from your lap plan won’t harm that much. The idea is to have an understanding of the process, a plan before you start cutting glass. When you lay up your glass layers, plan to lap glass on smooth rail curves. If your tail rails are low and hard, lap on the deck rails there. If your nose rails are high, lap on the bottom rail there.
Noodle, have you ever used West System epoxy? Again let me stress I have no clue on how to glass a board. My concerns are more along the lines of how much resin to hardner to use rather than how to lay up the cloth. The reason I wanted to get a Clark blank is so I could use the Suncure resin in all stages, from Lam. to hotcoat. I heard this is a good method for someone who has no experience. Right now I have been gathering all of the tools I will need to shape and glass. I live in the Woodlands so I was thinking about getting a blank from Henry because he is so close, but epoxy seems to take alot more steps than a poly. board. When you started did you just go out on a limb and glass your first board with no experience, was it Epoxy? Thanks, P.V.>>> Yes, you can. Lots of shapers do. Like a much smoother surform, sanding > screen removes material without grinding it into the surface. I use sand > paper because I don’t find this grind process causes as much blank damage > as other shaping processes such as planing stringer. Using a foam > sandpaper backer allows my sandpaper to contort over removed materil until > I expell it.>>> No. Sanding the spackle coat with foam backing depresses the spackled > blank EPS down to the stringer level, where I sand the stringer clean.>>> The lam surface will be a grid of tiny resin surface depressions. I merely > sand the lam surface until I sand through all ofthose tiny depressions. In > other words sand through the epoxy surface everywhere, no deeper. If you > don’t sand far enough, then hotcoat, under the surface of your finished > board you will see a grid of tiny reflective epoxy mirrors. That’s a bad > thing. When sanding your lam job look for these tiny mirrored depressions. > If you see them, keep sanding.>>> Yes, I hotcoat with Suncure.>>> Are you using multiple fiberglass layers? Have you worked out your lap > schedule? Make each layer larger than the one under it by about 1/2". > After the bottom lam hardens, sand the lap area. Then lap the top over, > staggering the glass layers so that the rail laps have an equal number of > glass layers as the rest of the board.>>> Too few layers make the rails too weak. Too many layers make the board too > heavy. So draw those lap lines, overlapped 1/2", on a couple of > pieces of thin paper. Label the number of glass layers between each line, > then lay the papers over each other as you would lap the rails. Add layers > and adjust paper positions until the lap layers equal glass layers > elsewhere.>>> Having gotten that technical, deviating from your lap plan won’t harm that > much. The idea is to have an understanding of the process, a plan before > you start cutting glass.>>> When you lay up your glass layers, plan to lap glass on smooth rail > curves. If your tail rails are low and hard, lap on the deck rails there. > If your nose rails are high, lap on the bottom rail there.
Noodle, have you ever used West System epoxy? Again let me stress I have > no clue on how to glass a board. My concerns are more along the lines of > how much resin to hardner to use rather than how to lay up the cloth. The > reason I wanted to get a Clark blank is so I could use the Suncure resin > in all stages, from Lam. to hotcoat. I heard this is a good method for > someone who has no experience. Right now I have been gathering all of the > tools I will need to shape and glass. I live in the Woodlands so I was > thinking about getting a blank from Henry because he is so close, but > epoxy seems to take alot more steps than a poly. board. When you started > did you just go out on a limb and glass your first board with no > experience, was it Epoxy?>>> Thanks, P.V. What Mike D. said. Use 2-to-1 epoxy which is UV inhibited. 2-to-1 is easier to measure, and works as well as the higher ratio epoxy systems. West Systems sells a standard laminating resin, and sells several epoxy hardeners to go with it. I’m not sure that West epoxy uses a 2-to-1 mix ratio. Only one of the West hardeners is UV inhibited, and it cures the resin in 15 minutes. Fiberglass Supply sells a clear UV 2-to-1 epoxy, but so does Fry. They both gel in 15 minutes. You would do well to buy some slower mix epoxy to mix with the faster gel UV epoxy, so that you have, say, 30 minutes to work your lam job. Then hotcoat it with Suncure because it stops UV penetration. Yeah, my first shape was epoxy. It wasn’t perfect. My biggest screwup was in not taping and cutting the first lap line. Then I glassed over the glass globs without sanding sanding them. It was a mess, but I fixed it. After minor revisions it surfs great. You’re going to screw something up on your first board no matter what materials you use. Fry won’t steer you wrong. Jump in and learn. When shaping foam, use templates. Then keep a sharp eye peeled for bumps, ruts, and symmetry.