Quick First Pump/Early Speed

General Discussion
21

I wouldn’t trust anyone who surfs and/or shapes primarily in Hawaii on the appropriate choice for east coast summer waves. Let them spend a few summers here first! The east coast boards ARE shaped differently by the experienced shapers, and even the SoCal mush killers are not really enough. Generally the southeast everyday boards are 1/2" to 1" wider in the tail, 0.25" less tail rocker, than the comparable mush boards from SoCal.

And there is no market for short mush boards in Hawaii, they are narrower tailed and more rockered than the SoCal boards. Honestly, if you go there and see days that would consist of east coast mush surfing, no one there will surf it. They say “mush” and the translation to a North Carolina surfer is “best summer day before hurricane season EVER”.

Wider tails and flatter rockers are a large part of the equation. And the tail rocker matters at least as much, if not more, than the entry rocker.

Appropriate fin choice is another.

Whereas I respectfully agree with tomatdaum’s recommendations, I do not think they come even close to the potential you will find in smaller waves with my system. A part of the problem with the thruster is that you cannot trim forward to reduce drag in smaller waves. Even today some big contests in small waves are being won on quads instead of thrusters - despite their minimal thrust, they also have less drag. A small trailer makes this compromise too - less thrust traded off for less drag. You do not have to make that tradeoff - you can have less drag AND more thrust.

Just came back from a week on OBX, scored a few windswell days, good fun. Took a pic of some lightning there…

22

If you’re looking for speed at the low end try an EPS board with the other logical design components - slightly wider tail, relaxed rocker profile (but not to flat in the tail if you want short radius turns.)

EPS boards of equal volume to PUs sit very high on the water, maximize early entry, and are up to speed in a fraction of instant. They lack the “inertia” of the same board in PU, but most surfers can make the adjustment to keep the board going. If necessary you could add a little weight in the glassing or, after riding the board, add a little weight to the board between your feet if you have trouble with “inertia.”

Kind regards,

Steve Coletta

23

I think it’s more about the ability of the surfer than any particular design feature. You specifically

limited this discusion to shortboards, and in that realm I can give several examples of guys who

rip tiny stuff on their normal shortboards. I’m going to leave the names out so I don’t get accused of

being a name-dropper.

One is a young (18) fireball who has so much energy it’s ridiculous. He rides 2’’ thick 5’10’'s and actually

prefers a thinner board in tiny waves for the quickness and sensitivity it affords. His ability to generate

speed in powerless waves won him a bit of notoriety last fall when he defeated a well-known Cocoa Beach

pro in an invitation only contest held in marginal conditions.

Another is a former CT pro who is a little ball of muscle. 20 plus years ago he would drive fellow ESA

competitors crazy by going out and blowing up in waves nobody else could even ride. They’d pull up at

Picnic Tables for a contest, look at the conditions, and the event directors would be debating whether

or not to hold the event. He’d go out to show that it could be ridden, and it was game on to everyone else’s

dismay. It should be noted that this guy is much more known for "digging trenches’'(his words) on the North

Shore than any ripple riding exploits.

The third is another former CT pro, but he’s 6’4’’ and over 200, and amazing in tiny surf. Over 40 now,

he’s still a feared competitor in small waves. His boards look horribly undersized, they don’t float, but

somehow he can catch anything resembling a wave and instantly get speed. He also charges world-wide,

and has a heavy Hawaiian rep.

What do all three have in common? They’re all incredible athletes. The last guy would have been a MLB

first baseman or an NFL tight end if he hadn’t gone surfing. The second one would have made a great

kickboxer, and the young one could be a soccer star or gymnast if he chose.

My point is that there’s only so much equipment can do, and those of us who aren’t gifted athletes are

always going to be a little jealous of those who can make so much from so little.

Mike

24
Quote:

I think it’s more about the ability of the surfer than any particular design feature. You specifically

limited this discusion to shortboards, and in that realm I can give several examples of guys who

rip tiny stuff on their normal shortboards. I’m going to leave the names out so I don’t get accused of

being a name-dropper.

One is a young (18) fireball who has so much energy it’s ridiculous. He rides 2’’ thick 5’10’'s and actually

prefers a thinner board in tiny waves for the quickness and sensitivity it affords. His ability to generate

speed in powerless waves won him a bit of notoriety last fall when he defeated a well-known Cocoa Beach

pro in an invitation only contest held in marginal conditions.

Another is a former CT pro who is a little ball of muscle. 20 plus years ago he would drive fellow ESA

competitors crazy by going out and blowing up in waves nobody else could even ride. They’d pull up at

Picnic Tables for a contest, look at the conditions, and the event directors would be debating whether

or not to hold the event. He’d go out to show that it could be ridden, and it was game on to everyone else’s

dismay. It should be noted that this guy is much more known for "digging trenches’'(his words) on the North

Shore than any ripple riding exploits.

The third is another former CT pro, but he’s 6’4’’ and over 200, and amazing in tiny surf. Over 40 now,

he’s still a feared competitor in small waves. His boards look horribly undersized, they don’t float, but

somehow he can catch anything resembling a wave and instantly get speed. He also charges world-wide,

and has a heavy Hawaiian rep.

What do all three have in common? They’re all incredible athletes. The last guy would have been a MLB

first baseman or an NFL tight end if he hadn’t gone surfing. The second one would have made a great

kickboxer, and the young one could be a soccer star or gymnast if he chose.

My point is that there’s only so much equipment can do, and those of us who aren’t gifted athletes are

always going to be a little jealous of those who can make so much from so little.

Mike

Like have said many times…Surfers rip because they rip. Not because of what they are riding. However…for the average guy or even intermediate slightly above average…what they ride can make a world of difference between fun and catching waves vs pretending.

25

Hunter, I think what Mike is saying is you’re gonna need a time machine and Barry Bonds’ “vitamin supplements.”

Good luck with that!

; )

g

26

I agree, Mike. It is pretty obvious that great surfers (athletes) are not looking for special or unique materials for performance in marginal conditions. It certainly is the singer not the song that produces the performance. Elite surfers are so good they’re already performing at an exceptionally high level in marginal and poor conditions.

Some of the “negative” affects of EPS cores make it useless for them to add low end potential (from foam selection and construction schedules) and risk losing a degree of control over their high performance - critical maneuvers. As has been pointed out, they already excel in these conditions.

The current crop on the CT (with the exception of Taj Burrow) and the overwhelming majority of QS surfers are not concerned with materials in the development of their boards. Their primary focus, and I believe rightfully so, is on the other elements of design. Alternative technology is marginally useful without solid design. Nonetheless a lot of surfers and shapers are taking a closer look these days at alternatives to PU boards and developing some excellent boards across the full spectrum of skill levels.

No doubt in my mind, the average “Joe” who loves riding a short board and wants a bit of an “edge” in these conditions (and who generally is not capable of stringing together a series of high performance turns that require incredible rail control in critical situations) can still profit from an adjustment in equipment rendered by choice of materials.

Kind regards,

Steve Coletta

27
28

ha ha hahahahh ahahahahhahahahaha… as long as the first quick pump is not the last

29
Quote:

The current crop on the CT (with the exception of Taj Burrow) and the overwhelming majority of QS surfers are not concerned with materials in the development of their boards. Their primary focus, and I believe rightfully so, is on the other elements of design. Alternative technology is marginally useful without solid design. Nonetheless a lot of surfers and shapers are taking a closer look these days at alternatives to PU boards and developing some excellent boards across the full spectrum of skill levels.

Hi Steve

Well said. But you might be surprised at what some of those pros are carrying around these days. Things are changing.

Since I dragged this thing OT, I’ll try to put it back by giving Hunter some advice he might actually be able to use on his small wave boards.

First, sand in the crispest possible edge on the last 20’’ or so. Minimize your fins. Surf without fins and learn to use the rail.(you’ll be amazed

at how fast you go!) And of course go a touch wider all around, based off your favorite dims. I’m assuming you’ve already got a healthy concave to straighten the centerline rocker.

Also: Study the technique of the guys you want to emulate. They catch the ripple at just the right spot, and they’re usually on an angle, and

as they stand they unweight and throw a quick turn back to the top of the hill, all in one motion. Standing up really quickly is critical.

Maybe in a few days we won’t be worried about riding tiny waves for a while…

Mike

30

heres another opinion

could be BS

im kinda thinking that guys that go for more float in small fast waves are making a mistake

i think low volume boards work better and you swimming to catch the wave rather than floating above it

if you got to much float, but not enough to catch the waves before it breaks(like with a 9 footer)

you tend to hang on the lip with late entry

if your fit

normal or low volume and really short works better in tiny waves

you have to be more focussed on better positioning

and early entry

one movement to feet and sweet spot has to be on the money

spreading the cluster or moving it forward will widen the sweet spot and make foot positioning less critical

as a wider tail will be more forgiving with a little bit more initial speed

wider nose will give better stability while paddling bursts, thus more power

head down paddle as hard as you can for everything and dont give up until the waves gone

dont just sit around in the line up

go hunting and enjoy the paddle

more paddling paddling paddling

once you going

sweet as

like a 7 foot board is a monsta for surfing waste high waves

all you need is a bit of stiffness and volume in the rail and a wider nose and tail

that why fish do work well when its knees high

but a modern board can be designed to achieve the same thing

31
Quote:
Where I surf I have really to make sure that all the folks sitting way out the shoulder or inside 25 to 50 yards down the line who are thinking about dropping in will know that's not a good idea because this old fat guy on a short board is going to make it all the way past then at max speed and probably spray them if they do.

Dick Brewer gave me a red board a while back. I noticed people getting out of my way much more as I would come down the line. I think the red stands out and looks more intimidating. Since then I’ve been getting my boards in red.

32

"I am wondering about design features which facilitate a quick first pump "

ah , let’s see…

thin hips ,

physical fitness ,

a very strong lower back

and the ability

to

er

‘keep it up’ ,

all help

or so some of my lady friends told me [when there mouths were empty]

hope THIS helps , hunter !

[frankly , i prefer making the ride last as long as possible , so not TOO many quick pumps , or it will all be over to soon , ‘boys!’]

cheers

ben

33

indeed… ben… indeed. hehe.

34

Even the pros are changing equipment in very small waves to enhance their rideability.

So you can safely assume that for any given rider, the right board ABSOLUTELY does matter. EPS vs polyurethane prolly matters a LOT less than distribution of planing width, rail shape, and fin config.

And that was sorta the question…there are at least a few recent times I can recall that contests have been won by big name pros who switched to quads to rip small waves.

To get away from the drag of the thruster. Probably doesn’t hurt that quads tend to be flatter rockered either.

As far as riding style, changing the weighting through the turn is everything…it was super-easy to detect this on the single-rotating-fin boards we made. There is exactly ONE point in the bottom turn that yields the most thrust, and that is EXACTLY when you want to push the hardest. Minimize drag into the turn, push through the thrusting part of the turn, then light on your feet again.

35

what works for me - a little lighter board, narrower nose (11 1/4 for 19" wide board) fuller (14 3/8) squash tail, gentle rocker, single concave, NO concave in first 15", slides in nicely and gets up to speed real quick allowing me to get up faster. and get going. Took me a lot to realize that narrower nose and no concave in entry rocker were major help. Hope it works for you too.

36

hiya Hunter,

i think we’re pretty close to the same body shape. we’re the same height and i think you have about 5 lbs. on me.

disclaimer: in no way am i trying to imply that i am a great or even good surfer. i’m trying to improve my surfing

just like you and sometimes that means surfing junk waves.

when it comes to that first quick pump to generate speed in small quick waves i’ve found that my mindset has

a lot to do with it. from the time i start paddling for the wave, if i have it in my mind that i am going to be quick

then it is a lot more likely that i will be. i agree with what everybody has said about being light on your feet and

especially agree with what Blakestah said about how there is a particular point at wich you can push against a

bottom turn or pump. pushing before or after this point actually bogs. when my first pump feels good, it feels like

i’ve gone down the face ever so slightly then i spring against the board and use the flex to jump down the line and

kinda drag my board along with me with hardly any weight on either foot. does that make sense?

i have 2 main boards right now. from memory one is a 6’2" x 11 x 18 3/4 x 13 x 2 3/8 Rickland with thinnish rails

and the other is a 6’0" x 13 x 19 x 15 x 2 3/8 Goin with thicker rails. it would make sense that, due to the width and

thickness, the Goin would be “faster” and it is but, when pumping and generating my own speed, the Rickland

feels “quicker”. the Rickland is more responsive and sensitive and as long as i stay right on the tail, and keep my feet

really light, it can gobble up sections the same as the Goin. somebody might look at these 2 boards and say that

they are too similar and that it’s all in my head and i’m just imagining all of this. maybe they’re right. i will say though

that i noticed these differences before i took out the tape and checked for myself.

as far as working out for surfing qicker, maybe less weights more plyometrics? get those quick twitches going as much

as possible? … seems to me Bert has shared some of his small wave boards and they have been really wide and thin.

from memory, close to 22" wide and under 2" thick. it seems to me that he has said that those boards make slop look

good. anyway, just some thoughts that i had after reading your thread and a totally gutless couple of sessions last

month.

37

i have 2 main boards right now. from memory one is a 6’2" x 11 x 18 3/4 x 13 x 2 3/8 Rickland with thinnish rails

and the other is a 6’0" x 13 x 19 x 15 x 2 3/8 Goin with thicker rails. it would make sense that, due to the width and

thickness, the Goin would be “faster” and it is but, when pumping and generating my own speed, the Rickland

feels “quicker”.

Ok Chris, the tails differ by two inches…quite a diff.

Rail switching is faster on narrower tails.

I bet the 6’2 is lighter too.

You didnt mention fin setups; it be nice to know since this can represent half of a board’s response.

Rocker plays a dominant role as well, but not much info there.

IMO, from a board point of view only, the quick first pump in tiny gutless waves has a lot to do with fast early entry, really light board for ease of acceleration and proper fin setup. For Hunter I would advise him to avoid potato chips. Or is that potatoe?

38

Rickland is a young guy, a true shortboard shreddah turned shaper. He makes a mean competition style board.

To see the differences between boards I would measure the fin sizes and positions, the difference PROBABLY resides in there.

Good on Rickland…

39

i love both boards. they each have their own types of waves that they excell in. in a

nutshell, the Goin goes great if the waves are flatter or not so steep. the Rickland

goes great if the waves are steep and/or hollow.

the 6’2" is lighter. both are thrusters. i’ve never measured the fin placement nor

rocker… maybe i will this weekend and post. both are running these side fins in

fiberglass minus the hatchet center fin… the hatchet felt like kind of a crutch to

loosen the board up and when i would really try to project on a bottom turn it

sometimes would just spin out in the flats. instead, i have a regular looking plastic

center fin. i’m not exactly sure of the template. it feels a lot more positive on projecting

turns (sorry, this is kinda off topic).

even further off topic, i agree with Blakestah again, Rich is a good guy, good shaper, and

good surfer. he does make a great comp. board which is part of the only problem that

i have with the board. it’s glassed super light and as much as it is a favorite of mine,

i’m slowly killing it. i would definitely get another from him though.

but, my original reply/post was to explain how i think it’s interesting that the wider thicker

board is faster “point and shoot” wheras the more potato (or potatoe) chippy board is

quicker pumping for speed. both are pretty equal at making sections but they each

deserve a slightly different approach.

i completely agree with you Craftee in regards to how critical it is to get in early on a light

board that can be really wipped around in turns.

40

Hunter,

If you ever get the chance, try Yancy Spencer’s fish. It’s not a fish in the true sense but more of wide nosed, flat bottomed, swallow tailed thing. It works unreal in anything up to head high, and I mean ANYTHING. Yancy has decades of experience shaping for small miserable conditions in Florida and he really has the board wired. I use mine with the Futures FT1 twin setup w/trailer. One quick pump and your flying through your first section. I took mine out twice today, this morn in chest high point surf and later at lunch in pitching chest high beach break. I’ve forgotten how much fun that board is. He makes it in PU/PE or you can get the dreaded Boardworks version (which is what I have) and that’s insanely light.