Would love to know if full length rail edge is a)faster b)hold better especially down the line on steep walls c) as loose as typical rail.
right on Uzzi... "good forecast but shitty banks" sounds familiar. ha =)
what is your rail volume like?
let us know how yours goes if/when you get some better waves...
i had my latest out in doubled up peaky beachbreak next to a jetty the other day. the surf was only about head-high on the sets but some of the waves would go hollow. some of the waves would get a side wave that had bounced off the jetty and would peak, double up, and barrel... anyway, the board has a 14 1/2" tail, 5 fin setup with the rail fins right on the rail canted out 8 degrees, flat bottom, and a hard tucked edge nose to tail. the board wanted to draw up the face of the wave while in the barrel. this isn't the first time this has happened but, this session kinda confirmed what i had previously felt. the board is a great section beater in beachbreak conditions it just drives like no board i've surfed before but, maybe the things that make it do that hinder it's tube performance. although, i've never been good in the tube, my performance is worse on this board. i don't think it's the tucked edge that's causing this but what do i know? i'm inclined to think it's the tail width and the fins canted at 8 degrees and placed right on the rail... i'ts got Probox fin boxes and the next time i have the opportunity to surf in hollow conditions, i think i'll switch out the cant inserts for something less. ie, 8 and 6 or 6 and 6 or 6 and 4...
bump
hi chris, the board is 6´2x18 3/4x2 1/4 ,14 1/2 tail concave deck, so it carrys volume torward the rails but the rail itself is down. i surfed today at a solwer point in shoulder-head high choppy waves. it feels definitly faster, looser and harder? but not out of control on somewhat bigger sets. it feels free now where it felt dragging before. i used molded fcs strech fins and would like to change to h2 medium.
the modification was definitly worth and will influence my future shapes.
salu2
uzzi
right on Uzzi, that was my experience too
I got 2 finless boards atm, one has no edge and the other has a super hard edge, they both go well but different...but not as different as you might expect...the edgy one sits high on the water and planes quicker, the no edges flows smooth and holds well, it never catches and I like em both...alot....
Back in the late 70s-early 80s almost all shortboards had this kind of rail. I saw some questions on the erbb about how to sand it, etc. There's a couple of tricks (besides the tape dam thing we all do to get a bead on tail). When sanding the HC, do the whole deck and rail first. Get the rail just about finished before going to bottom. Then do the bottom last, and keep the powerpad flat as you work along where the edge is going to be. Also working from across the board (work on rail opposite from where you're standing) seems to help. If done right, this will give you a very crisp tuck edge, which can then be adjusted slightly softer, if you like, by just running some fine paper along the edge.
Shaping it in the foam is not very hard, just don't wrap your screen or paper all the way around. And if you ''lose'' the edge by accident, using a fine block on the bottom (much like the above HC technique) will bring it back.
hey Mike, could you help us to understand the relation of the full rail edge with bottom contour and rocker? Could it work on a curvy concaved board?
;-) cheers
It's all related, the design elements have to fit together. Greg Griffin does a great job of combining the tuck edge with a curvy outline (and lots of other design and fin elements). He uses a flat bottom.
If I were going to put a full length tuck edge on a board with concave, I'd use a curvy outline and the (rail) rocker would be a bit more than if the bottom were flat.
thanks for the reply ! I asked that question because I tried the nose to tail rail edge on a board that I shaped in the past and It was crazy the way it surfed...The board had average rocker and single concave, and I thought the rocker and concave was the reason for the board surfing weird.
Here are some numbers and the symptons:
6'0'' 18 1/2'' 2 1/4'', rocker 5'' x 2 1/4'', single concave all the way and tucked edge nose to tail.(fins at 3 1/2'' x 11'', 1/4 tow 6cant)
- the board paddled very very well
- it got up and plane real quickly
- but had no good directional control, I couldnt put the board where I wanted it on tha wave
- Stiff feel when trying to turn, dificult to put it on the wave face, ''the board tryed to go to the beach''
After 3 or 4 times that I surfed the board I decided to grind out the rail edge and make it normal way, soft until the fin area then real sharp at tail.....
Well, I was amazed how the rail changed the boards behavior .... The board change dramatically. Its paddle power got weaker(20% less power) , also the time to get up and plane, got a litle slower, but once planing the board felt totally under my control, turning real good and totally healed from the bad symptons listed before.
Ive learned a lot from this experiment, but I know there is more to learn......Trying to understand my experiment I first thought the problem was my quite curvy rocker and deep concave, but now i´m more confused ....
I forgot to say that I tested it mainly at beach breaks in Brazil.
What you guys think about reason for the board being stiff and without control?
thanks for reading and hav a nice day :)
I don't see why you're confused, it seems to me you're doing a good job of figuring it out...
Griffin has this sh#t dialed, if you want to see how to use a tuck edge (and the other elements that work with it), you don't have to look any further than his boards. I got to ride a 6'2'' modfish 5-fin a while back and the thing went off!
But on a ''normal'' hpsb as you describe, the full length edge isn't ideal. It doesn't go well with the other design elements. What you were feeling is what I describe as ''fighting the edge''; it won't let you put the board on rail quickly and the middle part of the rail doesn't hold as well in turns.
Even on ''normal'' boards, small changes in the edge/tuck edge in the tail can make big differences. I was doing a replacement for a magic 6'2'' x 18.75'' x 2.25'', and I asked the customer if there was any slight changes he might want to make. He said ''can you make it even faster?''. I said ''sure'' and ran his edge up just a little further ahead of fins and reduced the tuck distance slightly. When he rode the new one he was mystified, he said the board felt bigger and stiffer. We laid the new and old boards side-by-side and analyzed and measured the differences. He was amazed that such a small thing could change the board that much.
Moving the tuck edge out and/or further up the board effectively widens the board when compared to a softer bottom rail shape.
I'm hesitant to get into this level of detail on design stuff because when we do, nearly the same words often show up a few weeks later on Rusty or Biolas' blogs. (notice they finally started talking about volume?) At least we know they're reading Swaylock's! ;-)
you're a legend Mike, thanks for sharing! i read every word you post...
i've got a couple questions too...
- does a sharp edge nose to tail lend itself more to rear-footed surfing? ie. pushing off the fins to gain down the line progress.
- could less rail volume have helped Horsemouth's situation? my thinking is that a finer rail would be able to bury more into the wave face and help with lateral movement.
Great thread, some handy info here, Mike, thankyou for sharing. I have a 5'8, smallest board i have ever surfed ( well there was that 5'7'' skipp ,but it was waaay too small for me! ), and it has soft rails all the way. It is fun to surf, but doesnt seem to be as fast as my old keel fish, which definately had an edge, and less tuck. It also climbed up the face easier, and came off the top beautifully. I've been thinking of adding some edge, at least through the fins, and after reading this thread i think i should do it and see. Might even carry it up to my front foot
for sure Beerfan, let us know how it goes... this is all really interesting
Thanks, chrisp...
Front foot/rear foot as it applys to edge: Notice that Griff says to get that back foot on the tailblock and push? While it's hard to isolate variables like this (because usually you're adjusting other things to ''go with'' the edge), it might be said in general the forward edge favors a rear footed style.
Rail volume and edge: Again, Griff always refers to it as a foiled tuck, and he certainly takes out some volume along the outer portion of his rail. I think his ''foil'' comment also refers to the distance the tuck edge is under the apex of rail, which tapers along with the outline/center foil.
He should just jump in here, I certainly don't want to be mis-stating any of this.
This is one of my favorite posts so far on sways! Ive only built 35 boards but all of them have hard edges 18 inches up from tail with very little tuck the rest of the way. And for my areas breaks, softer pushing beach breaks, work amazing. I did notice that on my trip to costa rica (hermosa) that the faster waves made it harder to control the speed. The way I figure it is; this hard edge/thin rail line it magic for slower/pushing waves because it helps reduce the sticking rails which increases the speed. However if the wave is already producing enough speed the thin hard edge rail makes the board super fast and harder to control the speed (maybe there are other design elements to incorprate that will help: ie more rocker) Overall Im a florida surfer and my board designs are geared toward my home breaks, so I love this rail line.
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Would love to know if full length rail edge is a)faster b)hold better especially down the line on steep walls c) as loose as typical rail.
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Hey Patrick,
i once asked mike daniel what Cons are of the full rail edges. he said that on HP surfboards you can push the rail less hard, because the rail will want to slide sooner. You basically end up with less control on a hp shortboard.
thanks for the reply Mike...
i'm not asking about Griff's design specifically. just about the tucked edge thing. i've heard from or about other respected shapers who use a tucked edge nose to tail on at least some of their designs.
just trying to figure things out. i know that i like it on 2 boards that i've tried it on. maybe i just lucked out with other design elements that happened to work with it? i like the free and fast feeling and would like to work it into future boards successfully...
i appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge here on Sways and though i haven't surfed one, your boards consistantly have good reviews... i wasn't BSing when i said i read every word you post. i'm just trying to make my boards go better for me and you've posted a bunch of things that have opened my eyes to areas that i hadn't considered. lot's of good stuff... ha ha, the more i learn the less i know. =)
in regards to the more standard "hard in the tail to tucked near the front fins to round near the middle and up" rail, what is the purpose of it? the softer edge up front is for control? for grab on a wall? why did "we" go to that kind of rail? what other changes where going on at the same time that might have made that kind of rail more prevelant ie. concaves, extreme rockers, etc?
good info Lovinlife... maybe the design is more for waves where you need or want to generate your own speed.
Wouter, that makes sense. seems like rail edge is a fine balance between release and hold.
"The more I learn the less I know". Mr. Chrisp, you have snatched the first pebble. Now it becomes a collection of pebbles. There are so many style or wave specific features in design that it is taking these from the catalog and tailoring them to your own way of surfing, Which may or will change with wave type. When guys come on and ask, "I need help in what shape to make" it begs the impossible answer. Without all the other information of how they ride and what type of break any shape will do but it won't be the RIGHT shape. I am quite sure you are aware of all this. Keep asking, keep learning, keep doing. Cheers.