O.k. I did the search for info on rails but came up with almost nothing. My question is simply this: what kind of rail does what? I am shaping a stand-up paddle board which is essentially a huge longboard. It is my first attempt at a surfboard and I want to understand how and why to make the rails.
Who’s to judge what is good advice and what isn’t?
Round rails suck, stay in the water, have control, good for fast, powerful waves.
Hard down rails release quickly, are faster, less control, make the board feel like it’s riding above the water, great for slower speeds, no so for faster.
High rails are draggy, but give control.
Low rails like hard, are faster, but might suffer control problems at speed, whatever speed that is.
Thin rails are good for control, less for YOU to sink, but usually need crowned decks, which MIGHT be like surfing on a telephone pole.
Flat decks are like the ground we walk on, you’d think good, but make for thicker rails.
Sorry, I lost my train of thought a long time ago.
Answer: He who has applied the advice and can vouch for it’s worth.
When you say round rails suck do you mean that literally or figuratively? As I mentioned I am shaping a Stand-up paddle board, which as I am sure you know is essentially a huge longboard. With that in mind and what you are saying I would think that thin, high rails would be my best chance of gaining control of the board. Do you concur? Would that run the entire length of the board? And finally who is to judge what is thin and high? Just kidding! But seriously, if my board is 5" thick how much can I dome the deck without it being unrideable?
With a stand up paddle board, I don’t think rail shape is going to be all that critical. Your making a foam beast, it’s going to be a huge cork. If you were making a shortboard I would say that rail design is the most important aspect.
Your stand up paddle board should be relatively flat on the deck, then the outer 6 inches of rail should taper to a 3 1/2 inch thickness measurement into an area where you can turn the rails into a nice 60/40 rail contour. Make the rails soft all the way around the board, you don’t need any hard edges. I would slightly roll the bottom contour into the 40% of the rail, like a 60’s longboard, but ever so slightly, not a 50/50 board. Maybe roll the bottom from about 8-10 inches out from the bottom rail? Like Lee said “round rails will suck the water down, making a more stable platform, not round rails suck”
My 10 cents, good luck,
Jay
Quote:
Hard down rails release quickly, are faster...
at non-planing speeds a round rail will actually be faster and more stable
before the board comes up on plane the board is in the water and round will give smooth flow around the board and reduced drag/turbulance at the release points.
Resinhead- just curious why you say 60/40 and NOT 50/50?
And you care about non planing speed because…???
Thick square rail does OK non planing. Who cares?
Stable? Fricken board is 26" wide, or wider!!
Said fricken board is 28" wide. Thanks for all the input. I will try to interpret and apply as best I can.
I prefer the 60/40 rail to the 50/50 because when its put on edge it sets into the wave face for a bit more for bite, the rail pushes back towards the energy letting you sink a rail deeper during a turn, which means you can get more body into it and subsequently harnessing more energy.& drive. The 50 /50 when pushed into a wave face want’s to stay neutral and pushes back. thus wanting to flow with the wave on top of it. The 60/40 with soft edges still gets that sucking down feel for a classic ride, but it can be pushed harder in situations if necessary. I think its a more alround design.
with the paddle board I would think the last thing you would want it a too rounded bottom, aka, Rolly Polly
my 5 cents,
Jay
You already have some decent advice on rail characterisitcs. If you were more specific about board length, and what it is you expect to achieve with this thing then you could most likely get some more specific answers.
And again, meaning no disrespect, one piece of “good” advice I can give you is to change your sign-off. It carries with it a slight air of negativity that could dissuade users from answering your questions.
Drew
First of all, absolutely, positively no disrespect meant by my sign off. It is actually meant as a compliment to the abundance of generous wisdom freely provided here on Swaylock’s. There are, however, some who’s advice seems not in the best interest of surfing, the aloha spirit, or “loving thy neighbor”. I do hope that they will reconsider their motives and my sign off is perhaps an encouragement to do so. But then who am I?! So I’ll change it. as to the board, it is a stand- up paddle board. It is a relatively new/rediscovered sport. It requires a long “canoe” type paddle ( single blade as opposed to a kayaks double blade) and a large board.( If you check out my thread entitled stand up paddle board you may get a better idea of where I am going.) Anyways, you stand with your feet parallel with the rails/stringer at about the middle of the board. You use the paddle for propulsion. Other than that it’s just a “big ass” surfboard for catching and riding waves. One might ask “why?” to which I say why not? I decided to shape my own for a couple of reasons. #1 being because you can’t run down to your local surfshop and pick one up. #2 is difficult to put into words. I am a master craftsman who has built many wonderful things for clients but for some reason have been afraid(?), financially unable(?), emotionally incapable(?) or who knows why to do something for myself. For me just doing it and completing it is a triumph. If it works as well then thats just icing on the cake. I almost hope it doesn’t work out so I need to try again. But I just finished a new two man outrigger design and now this. My self confidence is growing. Sorry. I know this isn’t a therapy session, but the truth is Swaylock’s is often a support group. How many guys/girls are out there who want to try building their own boards or ? but were to afraid to try because they lacked the support, expertise, or “good” advice? There is something about creating something with your own hands that gives you a sense of self worth and peace with your self. I encourage all who read this, who have been afraid or intimidated to try, to GO FOR IT!!
Aqua,
I don’t know the exact answer to your question, but this can help you answer it yourself…
The book " Surfboard Design and Construction " has the whole physics of surfing and that of rails in it and is a mind blowing read for a great education in rail design,as well as surfboard design and how what1 does what2 with input from surfer and affects what3 or the surfer…
Here is the link for the pdf file:
http://jfmill.home.comcast.net/swaylocks/Surfboard_Design_and_Construction_1977.pdf
page 16 is where the rail explanation begins.
Hope this helps… it really helped me picture what is going on…
ZoSurf, thank you so much for recommending that excellent resource. The author mentions making templates for the rail profiles. do you guys actually do that?? I had just assumed it was all done by “feel”. But that would have been a great idea for a “virgin” like me. There’s always the next board though. Thanks again!
mostly look and feel; a while back there was a thread on rail templates and it seemed very few used them. Basically only for copying a board. Most, including myself, used the look and feel. b.t.w. feeling with eyes closed is a good for envissioning what your after.
Quote:
And you care about non planing speed because..........???Thick square rail does OK non planing. Who cares?
Stable? Fricken board is 26" wide, or wider!!
Big cruiser longboards often don’t truely plain out.
They flow along with the wave not on top of the water/wave.
I would think this would be what is desired for the stand up paddle board.
check out Tom Wegner’s articles:
http://www.tomwegenersurfboards.com/articles_page.htm
the suction article and the rails article go into good detail about rail shape/design water flow and effect.
Just surmising, never rode a paddle board in the waves.
First of all, I don’t think it’s best for breaking waves like what a shortboarder rides. Better for long, rolling swells that become breaking waves later, so length and paddle speed, as will as vision, is a requirement.
As for planing or displacement mode, we both are correct. Parts of the board actually plane atop the water, but the sheer size and weight means some of the tail is forced underwater by leverage alone. For sheer control, softer rails are better, as the water wraps smoothly.
For pure speed, a harder rail would work also. But speed is not really a question, as we have to stay on the wave, which sometimes can be quite slow…but faster than paddling speed.
I used to try to surf a Mistral Equipe (my team board) at 24lbs., 12’4" long, 26 " wide, but it mainly had the age old problem of sticking front rails, causing countersteering, unless I could get past that stage, get on the hard railed tail, and it worked OK but sluggish.
Trimmed along the wall, it would countersteer. 9" tail fin, no daggerboard.