So i have a question regarding using the ould fins or rail for turning.
Now from snowboarding I can understand the concept of using the rail for turning, especially when the edges are tuned for icy conditions, (very sharp 70-80 deg.). The sharp rails really make you crouch low in the turns resulting in increase of speed when you extend your knees as you are coming out of the turn and shifting weight from toe to heel or vice versa.
I realise that a surfboard and a snowboard are worlds appart in every respect (appart from the “board” part). From videos and such I’ve seen surfers do a similar speed harnessing technique, crouch low eg before reaching the apex of the bottom turn and then extending the knees all the way through the bottom part of the turn. Then as the board starts going up the face to the crest, the knees are bent again and then extended through the top part of the second turn, thus resulting in even more speed coming of the top.
Now, when I try to do the same even on first bottom turn, i dip the rail really hard and push of the board expecting the same increase in speed, but what i find is that the board just stalls, by that i mean that the board under my front foot just starts pushing water, and then sinks…>:(…
So my question is what to do, appart from improving the surfing technique, with regards to the shape of the rail, tail, board volume, and rockers? I was told that increasing the tail rocker will make the board turn better, and that makes sense to me because I prefere using more rail and less fins to turn and a more curved planing surface would create a shorter raduis turn than a lower tail rocker (correct me if im wrong).
But what should be done with the rail and the board volume to keep the board in the water yet not sinking under the load?
Want to learn to do a bottom turn on a rail? Get a single fin short board. The single fin requires so much more control and sensativity to the wave’s motion.
Practice. Work on the fundamentals before anything else. If not ridden correctly, no board design will work. After you get the single fin wired, step onto a tri-fin, Then you’ll see what those extra fins are for!
Every board has a minimum wave threshold that is required to get it planing. Smaller slower waves combined with a heavier rider typically require more juice or bigger board to maintain planing speed.
It could be that the board is too small for the waves being ridden. Inadequate board volume is a common mistake. Lots of variables in the design questions you pose but if the waves and board are too small, the board is going to bog or sink on you.
Your weight, skill level, board dimensions (length, overall width, nose width, tail width, wide point position, thickness), and wave type might add a great deal to the answers you receive on this.
I’d have to add the classic “Sway-teragation” techniques…
What’s your board like, what are you like, what are the waves like???
For me, it sounds like the board is to thick/wide/flat, combo there of.
I’ve written it before, but what the heck: I like a thinnish tail, just over an inch thick at a foot up, about 1 7/8" at the 2’ mark - narrow, @ 13" on the toe side at a foot up, and around 16-17" at the 2’ mark. But, I also like it thicker and wider under the front foot - 3 1/2" - 4" depending on the length (shorter = thinner, etc.) (this “Belly” has a step all the way around, so it drops down about 3 1/2" from the rails - the rails are about 1 3/4"-2" thick, and they are nice soft, and round.) Not to mention V/“belly” from the just behind the front foot, increasing as it goes towards the nose.
I actually came to surfing from snowboarding as well, and one of the things that helped me (thanks to sways) is an understanding of “footedness”. Not as in goofy or regular, but “front-foot surfing” vs “back-foot surfing”. My extensive snowboarding in a previous life predisposed me to being a front-footed surfer. In a nutshell (and I’m sure others can expand on this definition), that means I like to drive off my front foot and turn off the rail. Back-footed surfers predominantly drive with the fins and turn off their back foot.
Why this explanation? Well, one of the things that was suggested (thanks again sways) is that a widepoint-forward board might better suit the style that I’d already developed as a snowboarder. Something like an 80’s style MR twin, or a classic fish. Another design that I found responded really well to a front-foot style is a bonzer egg. All of these, for me anyway, worked really well in generating buttloads of speed by planting the rail into the face and pumping hard with my front foot.
I think my personal style was pretty much hardwired by my snowboarding youth, and I’ve still never ridden a standard-style thruster which I felt really “worked” for me. Your mileage my vary, but it might be worth borrowing a widepoint-forward style board and see if it fits you a little better.
Everysurfer: funny you should mention the single fin… i know a guy who has one, been trying to borrow it for a few month now but he never seems to have it with him anytime i see him at the beach. Thanks for the advice, I’ll continue to pester him.
I ride mainly a 6’3’‘x18 3/4"x2 1/4 the tail is 16" wide @ 1’ the nose is 12" wide at 1’ (measured alons the stringer) and i have a 6’2" with similar dims. I’m around 105 kg so bout 210-220lbs (not too sure bout this one). I know way too small a board for me. I swimm pretty much every day so I only have a hard time on those in the fatter, rolling surf.
The waves here are mainly fatty type, so it can be a good 4-6 foot and still fat, late takeoffs are the only way to get into them on the above boards. So i guss fat slow moving waves are not suitable at all for these boards.
The reason I was asking is that i’m going to shape another board and wanted to avoid the bogging down issue.
This is what i came up with, a 6’3". It’ll have a diamond tail for a change. I kept the nose rocker down to 4" and tail rocker is all the way up at 3".
SHWUZ you’ll notice that the wide point is a good few inches infront of the middle so hopefully should help with the front footedness.
Fin wise I’m kinda torn between a 2+1 or a quad, and then i thought just put in the quad and a 10" box to give me more options, what ye think?
Thanks for the advice, hopefully i’ll get started on this soon, unless someone sees anything terribly wrong with the numbers!
I think it sounds good, but for the tail rocker. Again, this is just my preference, but I like a much lower tail rocker (more like 1.5") for fat slow waves. Makes it a lot easier to get into waves. You’re about the same size as me, and I’ve found that every little bit helps.
retro, would love to know how this goes as I’m thinking of making a similar shape for a friend. I love the rails, I’m a fan of keeping the thickness in the board and turning down to a nice low rail - it really hides the thickness and people are surprise they’re riding something 2 3/4 thick! It still allows a thicker board to turn nicely as well. I’m sure the volume of this board will really suit a bloke your size.
Been there done that… And very glad that others have the same problem. I thought it was just me…
IMHO you have two choices.
Learn to be light on your feet and drive a small thruster off the fins
Get a bigger board that will drive when you push against the board
First option takes alot of time, so the second option is better IMHO. Most likely if you are coming from snowboarding you will need a bit more volume and width, especially at the nose. Most likely you put way more weight on your frontfoot than most surfers do, plus your stance is a bit forward. When you are at the sweet spot where the board turns well, most likely you stall. To be able to have a (for snowboarding) natural weight distribution you may want to add some width at the tail as well so you can stand further back.
I made myself a supersized traditional fish a long time ago and found a board that actually pushed back and generated speed when I pushed against the board. That was a quantum leap in my surfing.
If you are looking for something you can really push (and feel some Gs) go even wider in the tail. 15.9" is a good start but 17" should not be out of the question especially with sidebite fins to keep it from spinning out. 22 1/2" wide or more is not too wide either. A set of basic side fins at 12"-13" up from tail with a single box (2 +1) would give you ability to fine tune the ride without the drama (additional installation and weight) of an extra set of boxes. Foam or wood core side fins glassed on might be the lightest approach.
I agree with Schwuz that 3" tail rocker might be overdone for a 6’3".
I realize that there are those that are really stuck on ‘something around 2 1/2" thick’ but 3"- 3 1/2" in thickness might give you even better paddling and G force when turning if you can find the blank.
I think youre right on all counts, J. Same goes here. I have found though that with a bump or curve in the outline behind the WP, the more I’m able to weight my back foot on turns, the more fun I have and the better I get.
Thank you for all your advice, its good to know that i was sorta on a right track. Cant really make the wide point any wider, the blank is only 22" wide, but i’ll prob increase the tail width and drop the rocker to about 2". Thickness wise I guess i’m still set on 2 3/4" maybe 3". With regards the 2+1 i thought the same thing, the gain in weigh in my mind is a small price to pay for ability to fine tune the ride. There are a lot more interesting single fin designs to try as well.
The average surfer on a pro model is like a duck hunter with a deer rifle.
If, as it sounds, you can not achieve turn number one, you are, (at present), a below average surfer. So the above advice applies to you about ANY shortboard. All those competent long board rippers that you see are not out of touch, How would you know something about surfing that they don't? Because of your self image as a cool, radical snow boarder? You and others are trying to sight in your deer rifle, when you really need a shotgun! Buy, borrow, build, or rent at least an 8 footer for a few sessions. Surfing, (on anything that works), is too wonderful to cheat yourself just to fit some media image.
Thanks sickdog! I try and ride as many types of boards as i can. I never said that the longboarders are out of touch, and not many people think that either.But brah, all that 6mm neoprene makes scoring chicks extra impossible, so a shiny pro-model, fresh of he rack is the only way to go! You’d be surprised what an o’neill sponsor sticker can get you!
Well actually not very much concidering it rains when waves are about and all the beaches are 1.5 hours from anywhere, so you only get to impress an elderly farmer walking his dog!
Silly: im keeping the nose rocker down to get it into fatter slower waves, even on a good day it doesnt get that steep. If i lived in kerry or sligo then by all means. Cheers for the ould advice!
