Rails on balsa sandwich board

Thinking of different ways to build out the rails on a balsa sandwich board, which is the better way to build out the rails?

A) Deck and bottom rests on one layer of balsa perimetric stringer, then build out iwht two additional layers of balsa. Should be strong, but possibly stiff because of thicker rails and locking deck and bottom together?

B) Deck and bottom only resting on foam, built out rails from two layers of balsa. Possibly flexier, but I’m worried about cracks developing along the edge to the rail builout when flexing.

C) Variation of B with the deck being blended over the rail. Could be done on the bottom as well.

D and E) Just a couple of ideas for tuning the rails with regards to the neutral axis thread.

Anyone got any comments? I’m leaning towards A) but I’m worried it will be dead stiff.

Happy new year!

regards,

Håvard

For my next one, I’ll be going towards A but with the bottom skin going like B and C (but with 3 bands of balsa on the rail like in A). So the deck skin is tight on the rails and bottom skin looser maybe, and the rail cut of the skins is nice and sharp instead of blended like what I did up to now. Also, as a methodology for building a sandwich board, this theoretically seems better to me.

I’ve tried A, B, and C. A is not too stiff, but is heavy (noticeably). The rails also ended up blocky because all the steps of putting some on, taking some off, putting some more on, shaping some more off…makes it hard (for me) to control final dimensions.

B took too much glass around the rail to make me confident it would stay together and ended up the stiffest of all.

Now I use C and am very happy with the results - flex, weight, ease of build, control of final dimensions all are best with this one. For me, at least.

I agree with Ben - C has produced the best results for me. I think that last couple ways would be very hard to do because of the curves on the board.

Interested in your findings lads…about to emark on a balsa project myself…

Now about the stringers - do you cut them with a “rocker” curve or use a straight piece of wood and bend to fit?

Cheers

Strips of straight balsa thats bent, clamped, and glued.

Interesting… two months ago I finished board #7, a 9’8"L, 22"W, 2.5"Thick, 14 lb, balsa composite with pinched ‘A’ rails. I was looking for a board to use in bigger waves that wouldn’t bouce around like my noseriding long boards do. It worked GREAT… well, untill I took off on a 8’ (well that’s the size I’m sticking too!) and it closed out… came up on the back side and pulled the board back to me… looked like an accordian! Broke in two places but all three board pieces were still hanging together (yea! composite!).

I"m in the process of rebuilding it. This time I’ll put 1/4" redwood benderboard 2" inside the rail (perimeter stringer) then ‘A’ rails again.

Hoping that the added 1/4" on each side will keep it together in the big waves.

Les

i vote c, except with three strips of balsa… at least that is how i have been doing it… d and e look cool but would be very difficult to do.

id go for C as well

but maybe A on a longboard

hey tridrles,

i think you would be better off adding more thickness to the skins core,for breakage strength . like 5mm bottom skin and 5 to 7 mm top skin.

4 oz cloth under

what were u using for it

What I like about A and B is that I could bag both bottom and deck skin at the same time. I might add that C is what Bert showed in the vacuum forming thread.

I don’t think D and E are really that hard to make. On E you could buil the rails as normal, then route a slot. Don’t even need to fill it. D would also only require a router.

The point of controling final rail dimensions is a good one, I don’t know how many times I came back to shape the rails a little more on my Hollow wood board.

Thanks all.

regards,

Håvard

i think dave has something like E. that he filled with flexible adhesive

Hey silly… 4oz. under and over the 1/16" balsa, concave deck. I have some 1/8" balsa… maybe put a 8" strip down the length of the board to strengthen it. But, I think stronger perimeter rails will help.

Haavard - I bagged the deck and bottom at the same time too. Works Great! I kept reading about how some of you bagged top and bottom and just had to give it a go. I even tried the wet-out table…NICE! I think that’s how I got the weight down so low (DanB? thanks for wet-out table advice). Except I think, for the top layer of glass, I squeeged out a little TOO much resin which gave a few dry spots on the balsa. I had to fix it afterwards. Next board I think I’ll wet out (pre-wet) the balsa then add the wet glass/peel ply/breather/bag. That way every thing sticks and I should get a nice clear/see through top layer.

Les

The red under the deck is a gasket tool to lift the glass/balsa/glass.

I used a makita cutoff (grinder) to score the g/b/g and not injure the foam.

Wetout tables make a world of difference! It cuts my resin usage in half. However, I’ve moved away from bagging both skins at the same time. One of the things that might have contributed to your board breaking is wrapping the top an bottom skin around the rail. I think it makes the board too stiff and less able to withstand the stress. I’ve been thinking about a big wave board and heres what I’ve been planning: double the thickness of the deck skin, glass it heavy, do the rails like C, put in a horizontal stringer, and do the bottom of the board with a flexy epoxy to help absorb wave chop.

really its the core thickness in the skin that give a composite its strength

not the stringers (stringers are deffinately part of the equation)

but for breakage strength you need to go thicker on your skins

especially for a long board.

i would use around 3/16 on the deck of a longboard

i have tried on 1/16 on a shortboard ,a fish but im not likely to use it again

you would be far better off(if your concerned about the few hundred grams difference in weight ) with a scedual like

2oz under 1/8 core all over or thicker maybe even 3/16 with 4oz over

also id put in a patch or two as well.

that would give you an almost unbreakable board.

if you seal the balsa first .u can get a nice resin to cloth ratio with a hand layup

i can do a 7ft board one side in 4oz with 150grams or less epoxy with say 50 grams to seal the balsa.i do this by heating the resin first and gently spreading as i pour a fine bead of resin.then let it soak in .nothing is squeegeed (maybe a few bubbles)

say if u pre wet and vacbagged the lam properly u could only really save what?

50 grams, cuz u still need to seal the balsa first anyway.

it really is a waste of time to do anything but a hand layup unless you doing commercial production

iff you have a look at some of sabs posts you can get an idea acheivable weights

all his boards shortboards are under 5 pounds.

and we both do our lams with a hand layup

by using thicker cores and less resin and cloth, the true benefits of composite construction are relized.

silly…

did you really have problems with the 1/16 balsa or are you just worried about it lasting? what is the reason you won’t do it again after your fish experience?

i have two 7ft ish big waves boards that are 1/6th decks and bottoms that my buddie and i have been hammering on this season and neither has a dent yet (he is in san fran and i am on oahu)…

tridrles- did that board that broke have wood stringers or was it only wraped? pretty crazy break!!

Silly - I think like you do, but I’m making longboards with 1/16" balsa in both skins. I’ve added the extra strength under the deck layer only with carbon fiber cloth. “C” rails are absolutely the way to go for the combination of flex & strength you want, I think. I also like to save thinning of the board / doming of the deck for after I’ve attached the balsa rails, I think I get a better shape that way. Can’t do that if you bag both skins on at once.

In re to sealing the balsa & doing the outer lam by hand, I’m with you on that too. I did my outer lams at the same time I did the inner & the skins & although I got a nice smooth lam, I did get some dry spots. Next one, I’m going to do like you & brush heated epoxy onto the balsa to seal it before the outer lam. That’s what I’d been thinking for a couple of weeks & I’m glad to see you say it :slight_smile:

BTW, I’ve had my 10’2" out in some pretty heavy surf the last week or two - feels pretty dang good & I think the flex is keeping it well engaged with these lumpy bumpy waves (weather’s been bad with the good swells) and I feel completely in control. Well, almost all the time. If I’m not - its not the board’s fault :slight_smile:

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BTW, I’ve had my 10’2" out in some pretty heavy surf the last week or two - feels pretty dang good & I think the flex is keeping it well engaged with these lumpy bumpy waves (weather’s been bad with the good swells) and I feel completely in control. Well, almost all the time. If I’m not - its not the board’s fault :slight_smile:

I feel like I’ve been saying this a lot lately, but I’ve been experiencing the same thing. Its insteresting how we all started off on different paths and have been moving toward the same conclusions. I think that this will be the year where me make big steps in refining these boards. I’m starting my new one when I return from Maui.

hey jjp

i only done 6 boards to date but have tried a different method each time

all the boards have been abused to some extent and ive had a couple of failures on two boards that were used to do airs by a friend who cant seem to stay on the face of a wave.

i would say thinner cores are okay on the bottom in fact desirable.

the two boards that failed were thin cored (1/16)with 2 0z under 4 oz over

one failed on the deck (small split)

the other on the rail(large tear )

niether failures were dings

the core density would make a big difference as well to strength.

the board that failed at the rail was 3mm deck 2 mm bottom

the stringers were not wide enough at the point of failure as they were taperd back toward the tail and also the the deck core was sanded thinner toward the rail

both of these things were critical errors.

after repair i reinforced the rail considerably and put another layer of glass on the deck at the tail

the board unsanded went shit loads better after this

it had been stiffend

i know how stiff and where i want stiff at this point

i want this stiffness to flex and be bouncy

i have discovered that the board feels better if i get flex and strength from the wood as apposed to the glass

in saying that though other than those failures neither boards can be dented the dents springs back out

the one that failed at the rail, i can jump on upside down with only minor scrathes.

also the fish with the split on the deck i can jump on upside down

there just not as good is what im trying to say

my first board is 8ft mal 4 oz under 3mm double 4 oz over and it is almost indestructable

and has just the right amount of flex and is still the best board i have made

fluke really and uses stringers as suggested by john or the A method

no 2 is a shortboard with same schedual . use A method but fully overlapped rails.

fun board but its too stiff, and creased a bit on the bottom when i jumped on it

i think this is because the bottom overlaps the rails and basically the board is to well tied together.

the rest are all different as well and i have come to the conclusion that you need to make a few to get this right.from now on im sticking to roughly the same length and shape for at least the next three boards

im sticking with C on the rails however and can do them pretty quick by now

also ill try difference between 2 and 3 mm bottoms but most decks from now on will be 5 mm or 3/16 thick

Benny

yep im right with you on the that method

and im not gunna change it at this stage until i start using EPP

yeah my lams werent looking that great until sabs let me know in a post how to do it

they were okay but his method rocks

can you imagine running the container up the middle really close to the cloth with a fine bead about a wees width, followed immediatley by a spreader about 10cm wide. the small bead really spreads out that wide if the resins hot .It is absolutely amazing how far it goes.

so i do say five or 7 passes down the length of the board working out to the rails.

no pressing hard its really light (i use a piece of balsa wood)

i save a bit in the cup for the laps and bits i miss

when the whole boards wet , i might squeegee out the excess, but the last board their was none. i just did a few hard passes to get out the few airbubbles.

im really happy with the last lam that got its filler/cheater coat after 5 hours,cured, and sanded finished

i cant see the weave at all really

also benny i can see what you are doing with the carbon. it does make sense .

its not available and is expensive for me so . i try and achieve the similar result i guess

by tuning my cores thickness and density for varying purpose.

theres so many different builds and materials being used that what applies to some thing

can be way off on a different length or outline .so it does get confusing at times .

and the only way to really know is to experiment

and even then Berts probably quietly laughing about how we approach stuff.

thanks for the great reply… yah the thicker deck does make a lot of sense, i am building some temps. to make a windsurfboard for the spring season and was planing 1/4" under the feet…

i haven’t had any sort of problme construction wise yet but have kinda been hoping for a break or even a serious ding so i can screw with the glass layers…

i just started building a board for a friend who is a Rocky Point hellman, basically surfes it every day it is on as he works at night. he is a big guy at around 190lbs and goes through boards like crazy. that wave is nasty. i am going to make it using the same glass/wood as my others and see what happens…

i did three in a row all basically the same shape but varied the thickness and glassing style… best thing i have done yet as far as making steps forward… removing the rail lap from the bottom glass makes a huge difference.

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and the only way to really know is to experiment

and even then Berts probably quietly laughing about how we approach stuff.

I doubt it - I would guess that he would be stoked!

I was thinking about your splits. Have you though about using a horizontal stringer in your next board. I sounds like you’re flexing the **** out of your boards. I mention this because you said that " have discovered that the board feels better if i get flex and strength from the wood as apposed to the glass ". I feel the same way. If you keep all of the wood located in the skins its always in play whether you need it or not, but if its in the middle near the neutral axis then if only influences the board when Its being really worked.