rails,rails,rails...rails

[ambrose]

its hard to quantify wordishly

to them whats a tactile bunch.

what many have said,

though discounted as less than 

worthy of a prize for literature

or publishable in the scientific

journal of choice,put a feelable

in the hand of the crafter.

If a picture is worth a thousand words

a 3-d object is worth  1000 cubed.

them who responded with a positive 

are encouraging them who wouldst

indeed take fate into their hands

literally and pick up any hand tool,

beyond the pencil paper /keyboard

and begin the process of becoming

a three deminsional life form by shaping

a stick,any stick to express real concern

with communicating with the wizard

on the other side of the curtain

who is shaping,albeit likely to be

a momentary setback in your growth

just riding boards shaped without

questionable ​causal input aka risk 

screwing the perverbial perito(poochie).

ask the same kwestion enough times

and them whats on the porch

at the general store might their hackles

there comes a time to just say uh huh.

…ambrose…

 

 

 

[OBKali]

@$1

Few shapers are going to get it right regardless.  I seriously doubt most shaper’s ability or inclination to follow one of those rail specification charts.  The surfing world is littered with sob stories about custom shapes gone wrong.  If you trust and respect your shaper as a craftsman, just turn him loose.

My guy is DA MAN - he always gets it right - I can put a board on the rack and compare it with the order and it is 100% on the money - down to a lot of minutiae. Believe me I have had many of those “WTF this isn’t what I ordered” boards. He gets everything right because we have a system of communication that is finite rather tha abstract. If I need a change I ASK rather than tell and we DISCUSS the inteplay of apsects and TRY to move in the desired direction. Through this process we have a really good thing going. For this reason my boards are incredibly dialed. It is curious that there is such resistence to quantifying rails. It appears that what I will have to do is abandon this thread and wait until my next custom and ask him, “I want more control and accuracy regarding the outcome of the rails - how can we discuss and achieve that?” and I am sure he will have a good answer, he is not the “I’ve got a good template for that, how much do you weigh?” kind of a guy - he is a “move the fins 1/8” and widen the tail 1/4" relative the previous board" kind of a guy - this process works. What I am not sure of is if anyone here will be interested in hearing what he says… curious.

[lcc]

@$1

Make rail templates, and check the foils at different, but consistent places.  Its not hard to do, and there are multiple ways to do it.  Be creative for once, instead of flogging the herd.

 

 always had consistently good results with  shapers who shaped with me there…periodically groped the rail foil while they were cutting rails bands…‘yep, that’s them right there’…

providing rail templates to my current long distance shaper was a difference maker…profiled front, center and rear with conformable metal template material, traced onto white paper, gap  measurements added, scanned and emailed to my shaper…rails now nailed…

rails will always remain subjectively elusive without graphic representation…

[BarrySnyder]

I have a chart in my shaping room very similar to the Steve Lis diagram above.

Based on the center thickness of the board, the rail thickness when still square.

I made this chart when I was shaping for Linden.

Very helpful.

Have made many alterations to it over the years.

If I stick to it,

I can reproduce rails over and over.

Its really very easy.

And yes, if you feel the rails when just rail bands,

the finished rail shape is in there.

For me, three bands on deck.

Square center.

Three small bands on the tuck.

A couple more small bands to round the rail.

Dragon skin the corners.

Money!

Take measurments.

Record them.

[stoneburner]

http://bgboard.blogspot.com/2014/03/march-82014-afterr-seeing-recent.html

http://ellipticsurfboard.blogspot.com/2015/11/ellipse-based-rail-profile.html

After seeing the recent resurrection of rocker profile measurement discussions at Swaylocks and the insistence about the correct methodology for precision, I decided to post something beyond my original comments in this thread:

It seems that rail design and communicating it are the purview of a mystical realm, defined by the "hand" of a shaman.

A surfboard rail profile is no less a "foil" than the leading edge of a wing.

Consistent rail design and replication require nothing more than templates, or a good tool for measuring an existing rail profile as presented by John Mellor.

http://www.quivermag.com/boards/john-mellor-2002

All that is needed for rail profile template design and replication is basic geometry -- a circle and a rectangle -- combined with a drawing curve (french curves or ships curves).  See diagrams below. 

The circle circumference defines the edge of the rail.  Circle diameter and the location of its center relative to the height of the rectangle create pinched, boxy, up, down, 50/50, 60/40, 70/30, hard or soft rails.  Circle diameter and the location of its center also affect tuck.

Length of the rectangle defines the point of blending with the deck.  Height of the rectangle defines the thickness of the board/blank at any given point.

The circle is placed tangential to the outer wall (height) of the rectangle.  The circle's center is moved up and down the height (rectangle's wall).  A drawing curve is used to draw two curves that are tangential to the circle's circumference and blended with top and bottom (lengths) of the rectangle.

Once created, a single rail profile diagram can be proportionally re-sized for any given board thickness.

"Tangent angles," for lines tangential to the rail curve, could be used to define/standardize rail bands for any profile -- more geometry.

The geometry is simple.  It can easily be done by hand.  But I am sure it would be simple for some CAD jockey to create a program that does this effortlessly.

IMO the realm of surfboard rail profile design is wide open and unexplored.

Reject.  Do not reject.  It does not affect me.  

Simple graphics for concept illustration below:

 

 

 

 

 

[pompano]

I have found that experienced wind surfers tend to have the best rail profiles that translate to surfboard rails, at least for longboards.  I have never shaped a longboard, but I ride them about 40% of the time now.  I live in Florida, so weak waves are a FACT. My longboard shaper is a well respected windsurf shaper http://rbsurf.com/, and depending on the waves you ride, it determines the style of rails on the longboard.  My performance longboard has totally different rails than my waist high groveller.  These shapes are both epoxy, and are radically different than your typical poly in the pink style longboard. I don’t know what to tell you besides find something you like and try to emulate it.  Generally, I prefer tucked, but I like to blend to hard edge toward the back for the performance stuff. 

[knowaloha]

 

i know how i like my rails

[Huck]

@$1

I would be intetested in peoples thoughts on rail volume vs fin size?

I walked through a surf shop the other day and spent a good hour fondling boards of all types and sizes, and specifically, the rails. There was a surprising variety of shapes and profiles, no real standardization. But certain patterns seemed evident: performance shortboards with multiple fins had down rails, and old school longboards and single fin hull-type boards had much more neutral (50/50) rails, and tended toward combining the rails with a bit of “pinch” or “roll” (i.e. convex shape) where the bottom turned to rail.

Generalizing, it would thus seem to me that a flat bottom, or concave bottom (= lift), in conjunction with a down rail, maybe even with a hard corner, would be used on a short performance type boards, as they would get up on plane quicker, ride faster and higher on the surface, which tendencies are controlled by multiple fins.

A softer rail would theoretically “hug” the wave closer, and if combined with a “roll” or “belly”, ride a bit lower, and hence can be controlled more readily with just a single fin, for an “old school” feeling.

Rail thickness would be a component of other factors, like overall volume, the type of wave and type of surfing, etc. An older surfer riding mostly in trim, say on a longboard, would likely favor a fatter rail - more volume and flotation would likely counteract some of the downside features of the round rail, and work well for paddling and stability.

A younger or more aggressive performance-oriented surfer (you know, more hard turns and rail-to-rail surfing) would likely favor a thinner rail, since it would be less stable (easier to turn), easier to sink the rail, and he would be less in need of the paddling (volume) and stability of the fatter rails.

These are just generalized observations, and I’m open to hear what others say or think if I’m off base.

[shapaholic2011]

@$1

You just can’t use a “cookie cutter” formula for a nice rail.  You have to use your Eye, your hand and your Base shaping ability to blend a nice rail into a deck.  I love Billy barnfield and everything he has written over the years on this forum and in “Surfing” Magazine.  But;  Sometimes it just  comes down to a good eye and the ability to blend with a planer, Surform, Dragon Skin, sandpaper and screen.  Lowel

+1

True. I saw a Tim Stamps vid on YouTube, and he does a very nice rail w/planer, sanding pad, surform , and screen. GOOD STUFF. If you have to plane, surform + sand, do less bands, or more bands - you do it. What matters is, you get the rails YOU want.

[oldphart_shaper]

Always nice to know what has been done before here’s a guide OPS rip sometime ago

[ghettorat]

Just remember rail shape also changes when boards are glassed depending on the schedule and cuts.

[marsh]

@$1

These are the images that come up on searches on the subject

This rail band chart from greenlight is rooted, don’t use it!!

You need at least two TAPPERED bands on the bottom rail, not one giant 45 deg band and a medium rail (on a HPSB) would have a rail apex at 5/8’’ or 3/4’’ in the middle of the board measured from the bottom.  Use this chart and you will have giant flat spots on your rails.

Also this chart’s deck measurements are no good for close tolorance PU blanks or moulded EPS.

 

http://www.swaylocks.com/groups/bill-barnfield-shaping-longboard-rail-bands

[Surffoils]

I too looked with confusion upon the whole rail shape / apex / volume / foil so I invented my own. But Ive seen others in Japan and Europe use this shape too.

 Its a square bottom rail with a maximum  1" high apex and then blending into the deck curve. 

Ive used it on prone , shortboards, hydrofoil boards, and recently on a Tomo copy.

 The benefits are that the bottom edge is square, the apex height is easily plotted and blended and the only curve is the rolled deck.

 Other side benefits are that the planing area is maximised, the bottom edge delivers consistent release for less drag and it works.

 

[Huck]

Bret - I saw those rails on a Japanese board at sacred craft ventura - and I have seen them on short board tails, I wondered what they would surf like.

http://www.swaylocks.com/forums/square-rails

[Surffoils]

I remember reading that thread, dunno why I didn’t chime in.

Looks like heaps of people have used square rails and liked them.

 The square rail is different to the ‘thin’ rail that Terry Hendricks talked about in that thread and what I notice is that it hits its top speed quicker and board speed continues thru turns, very much the same feeling as skiing at speed. It feels crisper, sharper.

 The rail still sinks, everything’s works the same, its just a different shape with a different feel.

 

 It’s also very easy to shape , glass and sand, esp if you vacbag.

I measured the apex of a standard board that I liked and used those numbers to position the height of the square rail. Simple.

 

The most difficult thing is getting over the universal concept that every surfboard rail must be round.

 

[oldphart_shaper]

@$1

Bret - I saw those rails on a Japanese board at sacred craft ventura - and I have seen them on short board tails, I wondered what they would surf like.

http://www.swaylocks.com/forums/square-rails

Anybody???

[sharkcountry]

Tom Morey uses an interesting shape for the tails of his boards. Similar angles to the Boogey boards.

Might be interesting to make a board with the bottom rail band, the flat middle and the top rail band, but without the rounding off or blending of the bands. Just leave the angles, and flats. I think I might try this.

[Huck]

@$1

Might be interesting to make a board with the bottom rail band, the flat middle and the top rail band, but without the rounding off or blending of the bands. Just leave the angles, and flats. I think I might try this.

wow, that sounds kinda cool, be interesting to see how it surfs in comparison to a standard (blended) rail.  We have so many ideas and assumptions about what works and what doesn’t, but there’s an awful lot we don’t know for sure.  First time I saw an alaia I thought there’s no way that can work - no volume, no buoyancy, no rocker, no fin, rails wrong - I was so blown away when I saw someone surfing one really well - it was like my whole little shaping world was knocked off its axis LOL.

[everysurfer]

If it can be built, it can be drawn and measured.

[oldphart_shaper]

Well! OPS upset no ride reports on square rail stuff! How come???

At least ES is thinking by adding a 1/16" chime. 

Come on gents! OPS due believe it was Brewer that said basically the perfect rail is consistent through out  however we must accommodate volume and aim at the least resistance. Like pix did about 5 of these “razorblades” (only good in very jiucey waves) gave up with the down railers, the “tucked edge” was where OPS left and warped into today.

My ancient opinion square “volume” rail nice for mushy low energy surf, BUT high energy stuff doubt these will work very well…

Hey the first board me make in 32 years was a 3 stringer 40//60 knife rail Phil Edwards ‘knock off. (50/50 had been done) surfed well in good surf (just like the real deal). Testing proved a tendency to climb.  OPS own an old Whitey and gezz the rails and no fin, “slidin’ ass”.  We need to realize that rails are relative to what surf you are thinkin’ about.

The bummer OPS has learned “it has been done before” is what you’ll find!

Aloha Nui