Jim, How about some detail on the 50/50 rail procedure. In your video, you make no mention of what angles and approximate width these rail bands should be, leaving the viewer to hazard a guess or revert back to some modified version of the John Carper pencil dot “guidepost” method. Perhaps, a little sketch of these angles would be of help. Thanks.
Jim, How about some detail on the 50/50 rail procedure. In your video, you > make no mention of what angles and approximate width these rail bands > should be, leaving the viewer to hazard a guess or revert back to some > modified version of the John Carper pencil dot “guidepost” > method. Perhaps, a little sketch of these angles would be of help. Thanks. Every board type of design is different, with most “new” blank designs having the bottoms flatter than the decks, as oppposed to old boards that nearly equal roll top and bottom. Some boards of the past generaton actually had flatter decks than bottoms. When putting the rails bands on a classic you can divide the area into approximately 3rds, with the center 3rd being the remainder that gets the “tune up” for the final radius.I never put pencil marks for where to lay in bands, as each board gets an individualistic approach as to how that particular boards rails will be. Boards with a “modern” rail, the bottom portion is much smaller, with the top taking the lions share, and as I discussed in the theory portion, the center drops accordingly, lower on the rail face. I could have added another complete tape on all these other items, but you can fly me in for private lessons, it’s a little cheaper than a 4A college.
Every board type of design is different, with most “new” blank > designs having the bottoms flatter than the decks, as oppposed to old > boards that nearly equal roll top and bottom. Some boards of the past > generaton actually had flatter decks than bottoms. When putting the rails > bands on a classic you can divide the area into approximately 3rds, with > the center 3rd being the remainder that gets the “tune up” for > the final radius.I never put pencil marks for where to lay in bands, as > each board gets an individualistic approach as to how that particular > boards rails will be. Boards with a “modern” rail, the bottom > portion is much smaller, with the top taking the lions share, and as I > discussed in the theory portion, the center drops accordingly, lower on > the rail face. I could have added another complete tape on all these other > items, but you can fly me in for private lessons, it’s a little cheaper > than a 4A college. I have both Carper’s and Jim’s videos.Jim called it right by saying that all blanks and shapes are different so it would be hard to just lay down random marks.Carpers method of connecting the marks makes a good case for uniformity but just where do the marks go?Here is a way to get the best of both worlds…Lay down the first main band on one side of the board,adjust it until it is what you want.then measure from the bottom and stringer and transfer these marks to the other side of the board and connect the marks, this helps you to get uniformity on both sides. If you leave the shadow lines and maintain a sqaure rail edge you will be able to use this method on the whole board.When all of the rail bands are uniform you can then go ahead and blend in the lines.On a longboard I may have three bands on the top and two on the bottom.You can always adjust them but once you sand off the edges you are stuck.
for me the guidemarks just help keep it even. one side i measure from the rail the other is replicated from the stringer. i find this step squares up the top which at least for me is never perfect at the outline(till the bands go in) no matter how careful i true the outline with the bottom up. i put em at the center and then halfway to nose/tail. with new shapes i usually draw out cross sections of the blank and sketch out different ideas till it looks close to what i want. i like to think of rail bands as just arcs that widen at the center and taper at the ends. not sure if that makes sense but it works for me.
for me the guidemarks just help keep it even. one side i measure from the > rail the other is replicated from the stringer. i find this step squares > up the top which at least for me is never perfect at the outline(till the > bands go in) no matter how careful i true the outline with the bottom up. > i put em at the center and then halfway to nose/tail. with new shapes i > usually draw out cross sections of the blank and sketch out different > ideas till it looks close to what i want. i like to think of rail bands as > just arcs that widen at the center and taper at the ends. not sure if that > makes sense but it works for me. It makes sense to me Bruce,we are on the same track.Alot of guys just template the blank and cut out the shape.I skin my blanks and do most of the foiling before templating (same as Jim).I call it “pre shaping”.I then template the board and get the outline perfect with my planer.You are right in calling railbands tapering arcs.The hard edges of the planed in arcs gives us “shadowlines” that the side lights enhance…thus giving us reference points.The main difference between our theories is that you pre plan your bands and I duplicate them as I go.Shaping is fun and probably impossible to explain in words.I have shaped thousands of boards and have worked with a lot of shapers…they all do it different.After 38 years of on and off carving I am still learning…still looking for new ways.Thanks for your thoughts.By the way I was shaping a bunch of retro longboards in a big production shop last year and was astounded at what some of the younger shapers were accomplishing with a grinder and a soft pad.It saves a lot of work but it scares me to death.
…Fast ,clean, quick,but don,t sleep at the lights…how do you think boards got to be 18 inches wide?Herb
for me the guidemarks just help keep it even. one side i measure from the > rail the other is replicated from the stringer. i find this step squares > up the top which at least for me is never perfect at the outline(till the > bands go in) no matter how careful i true the outline with the bottom up. > i put em at the center and then halfway to nose/tail. with new shapes i > usually draw out cross sections of the blank and sketch out different > ideas till it looks close to what i want. i like to think of rail bands as > just arcs that widen at the center and taper at the ends. not sure if that > makes sense but it works for me. It isn’t so important to get the top side of the bands symetrical, but the inner edges of the top and bottom bands MUST be even. This is determining how straight and clean the line will be. THe upper portion gets blended into the flats of the deck and bottom in a retro rail. On a modern rail bottom, the bands need to be uniform, as both lines determine the ourcome.
Jim; from watching your vid. it looks like you allow for 1/4" flat at rail center line and cut first bottom band at what looks like a 45 degree and first top band a little less steep–looks like approx. 30 degree. Am I anywhere close? Thanks!
You know Bill, yah got me there, I’m just gonna have to take that protractor and get some degrees, minutes and seconds off those suckers.
Bill-- If you are unsure of proper angle and/or symmetry of your rail bands; I would suggest you go with the John Carper method until you get an “eye” for it. There’s some measurements for 50/50 rail cuts at www.solidbalsa.opi.com. It’s a balsa shaping webpage. Also I’ve made some “Fred” type tools with sanding blocks glued together at lesser angles than Carper’s “Fred”. This way I’m assured my bottom bands are of the same angle and width. It’s slow but the results have been good. Hope this helps.