[quote="$1"]
To get the weight any lower, you would have to start shaving down the thickness of the skins to the point where it is not serving as structural support anymore. At that point, it is just a wood laminated foam board and not a true HWS.
[/quote]
A Big BINGO to the Billybob!
Pretty much thats my criteria 
If I manage to perform a miracle and meet the weight, durability and cost aspects, i’ll be one happy man. And a lucky man at that.
If through another miracle the board just happens to give incredible performance, well. then I might reconsider religion
I’ll be building modern performance shapes, no different than a common poly at all except hollow and wooden!
The other main aspects of my project are to simplify the build process as much as possible, and be able to translate a design from the computer software really accurately.
Thanks for all the replys guys, i’m really getting something out of this.
I was under the impression that Hess used EPS?
He uses sheet veneer or something for the skins, and bending ply for the rails - talk about easy! And his prices are defninitely not shy.
Now thats a smart business model, easy to build (relative to most other true HWS), and he’s got the following too.
Kit
Hi,
The main reason I wouldnt buy one is I like to build them myself…
but if I was in the market for a new board and I was looking at the options between whats out there for purchase, I would like to think I would see HWS as a serious option.
I think definitely that performance and durability are the main issues that I would think about, for instance it sucks buying a $900 dollar board and pressure dinging it considerably after a couple of surfs. I am convinced that timber put together in a strong fashion will offer a really strong and durable product.
I think in the broader picture its all about choices, Personally im ok with giving up a little performance for riding something that I enjoy riding and is made out of a less toxic brew than a conventional board.
Certainly. But it’s more akin to a compsand build, work and time wise.
This post is getting down to sematics at this point. HWS versus Compsand, why is the build method so important. You should be focusing on the ride quality. If wood is your thing, use it as your primary material but don’t be so blinded in your approach as to ignore other materials as viable answers to problems in meeting your objectives.
In the end it’s just a surfboard.
Kit
the nice thing is that if you can partner up with some who has excess time on a CNC or can build or find a cheap CNC you can design and cut out all your pieces on bending ply or marine ply and just put it togethor like an erector set. With a long enough adjustable rocker table you can build just about any design you can imagine or translate to the APS3000 software with the add-on they created at Tree2Sea.
Using Paul Jensen's zip tie framing method you could put these togethor fairly rapidly..
With their industrial access to large scale CNC equipment and cheap raw materials, I'm surprised the Chinese haven't jumped all over this with their access to Paulownia selling precut kits to the model making/home building crowd at 30% of what Grain is charging for their kits. (Believe me its coming) No oil-base products required. I'm also surprised that some small US CNC shop hasn't keyed on the idea of selling cutting services like the blank folks are doing. Just have customer create what they want online on software you supply on your website and then cut out all the components from a single sheet of waterproofed plywood and ship it off to them to build at a cheaper cost or they can pay to have you build it and send them a completed board like they are doing at Grain,.
Think of all the out of work carpenters or folks in the home building industry who could be used to develop this niche market. I'm sure is on someones business plan proposal to their local lender for capital investment.
I was thinking why no-one has designed some type of wood or plastic clip you could use to lock-in all the joints at the proper angles so you didn't need a rocker table to build out the skeleton. If they had a small flat round cap on the top and the joints were inset to support this rib to spine "connector" then it could be used as added support for the deck panels later. Don't sell to surfers but to model makers, home do-it-yourselfers, and anyone who would like to hang or display something like this in their home or office. (Just remember to sell the precut/premade display components like wall rack or self supporting stands as well)
There's not alot of start up costs to build this design-your-own hollow wood model surfboard kit out and i think it would have alot of appeal for a variety of reasons.
One idea sitting in the back of my head was creating multi function hollow wood designs such as a pair of hollow wood fishes that could also serve as speakers when not surfed. There's many others as well. Imagine having these in store or restaurants, offices, meeting rooms or reception areas.
Just some observations from someone outside the "normal" surf board business.
[quote="$1"]
This post is getting down to sematics at this point. HWS versus Compsand, why is the build method so important. In the end it's just a surfboard.
[/quote]
WWHHHAAAATTTT!?!?!?!? If it was just a surfboard, we would all be on Surfermag.org and not here. That's the reason this bulletin board exists, to explore all the fine nuances of building that perfect surfboard - emphasis on "building". If you just want an off-the-rack, Costco board, well... Surfermag.org.
[quote="$1"]
[quote="$1"]
This post is getting down to sematics at this point. HWS versus Compsand, why is the build method so important. In the end it's just a surfboard.
[/quote]
WWHHHAAAATTTT!?!?!?!? If it was just a surfboard, we would all be on Surfermag.org and not here. That's the reason this bulletin board exists, to explore all the fine nuances of building that perfect surfboard - emphasis on "building". If you just want an off-the-rack, Costco board, well... Surfermag.org.
[/quote]
You may be missing lawless' point (assuming I'm getting it correctly). It's how it RIDES that matters, and construction technology does have an impact. We're the fiber guys (no wood), but I can see how kk could be attracted to his project. IMHO a cored structure is going to be more viable, but he's entitled to explore.
[quote="$1"]
Pretty much thats my criteria :)
If I manage to perform a miracle... [/quote]
Lemme guess....wood mesh
[quote="$1"]
You may be missing lawless' point (assuming I'm getting it correctly). It's how it RIDES that matters, and construction technology does have an impact.
[/quote]
I think I got the point. But, as pointed out in many of the previous posts, the construction and technology is an integral part of how it rides. Whether you have a fiber/foam, a fiber/wood/foam, or a fiber/wood/air board, each will behave in its unique way. How you lay the glass (vacuum vs. traditional), how you orient the wood (longitudinal vs. diagonal vs. transverse), etc. will affect the performance of the board.
It's not JUST a surfboard.
Absolutely, a board that doesn’t ride well is not worth having,IMO, unless it’s going on the wall.
The thing about a project as difficult as this one is that there will definitely have to be compromises.
Trade offs between cost, time, quality, costmetics, and quality of ride as well. And other aspects.
If I was go down the route of Hydro Epic as Crafty mentioned before, there’s millions of dollars to be spent chasing the ultimate performance.
To set such tight parameters as I have for this project and then expect the board to be a world beater would be a bit too much to ask 
Performance tuning comes from tweaking and cyclic development over a period of time - setting out to design something that rips just won’t happen in one shot.
So many people have tried…
Instead, my approach is to aim for a board that falls into the rough criteria for a modern performance shortboard - Lightweight and flexy (flex return) in terms of performance, reasonable cost, and durability at least as good as the industry standadard PU.
Thats more than enough of an engineering challenge to keep someone going for years!
If I get reasonably close to that goal, then the board can be evaluated for initial performance, and investigation into tweaking the design starts, to try and find the best performance.
Thats when the real hard yards start!
Of course i’m trying to design everything to what I feel has the best chance of being a ripper. But you simply can’t guess what something will actually ride like until you’ve built it. I’ve learnt that much from the last few years of building compsands.
Kit
Bernie,
I’ve got access tot the CNC at uni, its awesome!
One of the (many) points i’ve included in my design brief is that the board should be able to be easily constructed by hand.
The idea is to have the system as flexible as possible, CNC if you wish, or employ local labour and support your community.
So far my design allows for both, but its early days, i’ve only been working on this for the last 6 months.
Kit
Kit, are you saying you are planning on investing YEARS into this endeavor? Or is this just a fun and challenging requirement for your education?
"How you lay the glass (vacuum vs. traditional), how you orient the
wood (longitudinal vs. diagonal vs. transverse), etc. will affect the
performance of the board.
It’s not JUST a surfboard."
My point was that you shouldn’t get so singularly focused on the build method that you don’t address the ride quality. They complement each other and should both be taken into consideration
Like crafty mentioned, you’re not really gonna know how it goes until you build one and ride it. It’s just empirical testing from there.
To answer your original question though, I think the appeal of the HWS construction is that it’s approachable. Average materials available at your local hardware store. Most of the work is in the labor involved, which is where it makes it a pricey endeavor if you’re trying to sell them and make a profit on your time, labor & materials. I wouldn’t buy one because of cost. I’d rather build it myself and build a board I knew worked (known shape). In the end I still want a board that rides well, regardless of what it’s made of.
The Current "build" method of HWS is popular for good reason. Anyone can have a dig - you don't need much room - the materials are easily sourced and you can get an off-the shelf set of full scale templates . Booongo!! - you have made your own surfboard , you can ride it or hang it or just keep it . There was a time when hollows were state of the art , so, they're not a new thing. I think the reason they are not produced commercially comes down to simple physics-- ie. air being a "fluid" moves around inside the vessel and reduces the positive drive or go-forward , so, they don't have the performance of a board that is made from a solid mass, which has more momentum and energy. Hollows can ride pretty good , though ......................still comes down to design
I have never agreed with the persuite of lightness for lightness sake . IMO all surfboards have a "correct" weight , which may change for different riders. I can't get any drive if the boards too light.............maybe it's just me
I done a restoration on a Joe Quigg 11' 3" hollow about 10 years back. The front 1/3 top and bottom panels needed replacing , so the internal structuring was exposed. I forget the vintage but it was an old one. Joe Quigg was more advanced back then, than many things I see today!......................we all drink from the same well , you just gotta pay due respect to those who dug it !
[quote="$1"]
Instead, my approach is to aim for a board that falls into the rough criteria for a modern performance shortboard - Lightweight and flexy (flex return) in terms of performance, reasonable cost, and durability at least as good as the industry standadard PU.
[/quote]
Sounds like the standard PUPE model. Except yours will cost more to build. Molding (instead of machining) is the typical way to reduce costs (the other is China). But you can't mold wood. PU blanks are molded, and can provide an excellent finished product if ultimate lightness is not the goal.
IMO, Sunova is the gold standard for what youre trying to achieve, however those are cored. And Bert had to go to Asia to make it work profitably on a larger scale.
It seems like a lot of energy to make a board that 'resonates' over everything else that doesnt. I dunno man, Im just not buying into the trip. One of my favorite boards of all time was one that was so smooth and dampened, I felt like I was surfing on air. Mat riders will tell you similar things. So what's better, smooth floating on air sensation, or vibratory resonant ringing? Heck if I know. Regardless, sounds like a interesting senior project. I just wouldn't mortgage the house trying to find out. Surfer's are too weird (and cheap) a bunch to gamble serious ca-ching on. Whatever.
It is just a university project…
If a saleable product eventuates, then cool! It would be a bonus but is secondary to the engineering challenge.
I’m intrigued by the potential that hollows offer for building to computer generated templates - Being able to produce a board exactly as designed is pretty cool.
There is a market for boards like this, and there’s nothing that actually fills that niche at the moment. Super-light hollows haven’t been done comercially, so there’s a gap there if someone gets their act together and designs a winner. I don’t have the resources to follow this through to comercialisation. Spare a couple of mil anyone?
I’m just gunna be happy if I get a good mark for the project :)
There’s no money in surfboards, and I dunno if i’d want my hobby to become my job. Much smarter to earn good coin as an engineer and keep surfboards as my fun projects.
I’ve spent the last 3 or 4 years obsessing over compsands since I made the switch from PU, so whats another few years refining hollows?
Good fun, thats what it sounds like to me! It’s all about the process…
[quote="$1"]
It is just a university project.....
I'm just gunna be happy if I get a good mark for the project :)
Good fun, thats what it sounds like to me! [/quote]
Yeah sounds good to me too Dude. Your choice of project is a real good one. And who knows you might get really close to your ultimate goal.
Some thoughts...
I too am intrigued by hollows (not necessarily made of wood tho) for a few years. Ive had a concept in my head for a real trippy construction but I just dont think I could hit my weight target (less than 7lb) so I prefer not to pursue it. Like many others, I was intrigued by lpdfg's (whatever his username is) project here a couple years ago, using a lot of expensive carbon and a bunch of neato composite tricks, only to finish at 8-10 pounds. When it comes to low weight targets, all those necessary reinforcements will kill ya.
Aviso does make light hollows and they are a just an email away, but they are not made of wood. I explored the possibility of buying one, looked at their vast model catalog, started a thread here about how they ride. I found a Cole model that seemed like a design I would appreciate surfing. I sent them an email thinking hey maybe I can buy that thing for $800 or so, yeah I know, EXPENSIVE. When they responded, the quote was $1,200!!! Considering I can make a really hot compsand for about $150 I did some 'harsh reality' math and nixed the idea of buying one in an instant.
Hess is pretty much there, but his are expensive too. And you likely have to wait a while to get one.
Sunova is close, without the hollow part, and you can get one at a 'reasonable' price and some wait time.
Like oneula says it comes down to marketing.
On the engineering side of things...
I'm sure theyve taught you this by now, or have at least mentioned it, but engineers in the field spend lots of time avoiding stress concentrations, which is precisely what a simple cored foam board does without much effort or thought. Wood hollows are pretty much the opposite of this and thats why they need to be heavy (thicker wood or more reinforcements) in order to survive these concentrations. Its almost like trying to make an I beam work without the shear web. Shear is the big challenge and killer. You can avoid its affects by making them either heavy or very stiff.
I'd be interested in seeing FEA graphical results of a hollow vs cored. Im pretty sure Kendall has seen it. Too bad he's not chiming in here. He's approachable by pm though you might want to hit him up for advice. When it comes to advanced hollows, he's been to hell and back. He's posted a lot of very interesting threads about it on Sways. Man, what a cool job....test pilot for HE...I think the dude rips too.