Resin Infusion - lots of Innegra links

General Discussion
61

The reason the football/baseball/soccer ball hasn’t evolved is because it isn’t allowed to, it’s “regulated” there are many balls that fly faster kick further, hit further etc…
It’s the same reason Nascar use carburated push rod V8’s
These sports are about the human performance, Not the technological, which is fine.

For surfboards you run what you brung,
May as well bring something good.

As a builder and local board repair guy,
Most surfboards are shit…fragile ass pieces of crap…
Sorry but I refuse to pay 500-800 dollars for something that’ll be in the rubbish pile after my first ride…

62

I build boards that are not commercially viable, and I don’t mind that “negative” one little bit. I have way more time and curiosity than common sense. Which is not a problem for an amateur hack such as myself, so I don’t mind trying new things so long as I think there will be some benefit to the extra work.

With that said I completely understand why most of the professionals are spending way more effort and resources on design and production and less (if any) on actual build-related R&D. Moreover, they’re not stupid for making that choice, particularly when considering how undervalued their existing products already are in relation to the time and effort necessary to produce them.

The main reason that the baseline for the surfboard business is PU/PE and not (for example) epoxy/PU or Veneered EPS is because although just about any board building can do either of the other two, most of their customers aren’t willing to pay the freight.

You can’t push on a string. We can’t MAKE the consumers willing to pay another $100 for the upgrade even when we realize that upgrade will double the usable lifespan of the board.

.

63

While you’re at the Infusion method, make your own coil.
http://diygearsupply.com/product/pocket-mesh/

64

[Quote]I build boards that are not commercially viable, and I don’t mind that “negative” one little bit. I have way more time and curiosity than common sense. Which is not a problem for an amateur hack such as myself, so I don’t mind trying new things so long as I think there will be some benefit to the extra work.
[/quote]

I consider it a benefit and a blessing to be able to build boards I don’t have to sell. To have the freedom to pursue my own design agenda without worrying about curb appeal.

65

Everysurfer, yes, the same principle as for Lantor Soric, internal infusion mesh… I’ve never seen a coil in real, but from photos on the internet, their level of craftsmanship is unreal if as I understand, there is no finishing after lamination!

66

“I was wondering how practical would it be to power a version of that pump with some sort of renewable energy source (I was thinking wind)”
Dave,
It might be possible. Depends on how you want to use wind and what is causing the low oxygen (DO) levels.
Better to discuss this via PM.
Bill

67

The principals of surfboard design have developed incrementally over many years , and have nothing to prove to anyone…anything “new” is more likely to be in the realm of materials used…and most of the fancy new lab tech stuff cannot measure up to some materials that have been around forever . Resin infusion is somewhat of a holy grail for those who like composites , kinda like a Rubics cube for composite junkys…but it’s purpose is more for mass producers with $$$'s in their eyes , rather than an improvement of “the surfboard” itself . A major ingredient of modern marketing is to "blind 'em with science " , and invent new words that no one has ever heard before…(lol)

68

The “laughable” remark is what I refer to. Obviously condescending and smart ass. Sorry Eversurfer, but that’s just not true. Your problem with Sways and some of the regulars around that just won’t go away is that you just don’t get the respect you think you deserve. So build a board. Start a thread and quit whining. Lowel

69

NO

70

Well Said.

71

You should teach Philosophy. I have nightmares about people like you. Missed a class. Failed a quiz. “I’m never goin’ back to my old school.”

72

Roger That!

73

I had forgotten about this thread, then came back… 8 pages later.

McDing, my “laughable” comment was in no way meant to be snide or condescending. It just happened to be what I typed in the context of my thought process at the time.

I watched some really interesting interviews with Elon Musk last night. He put it much more eloquently than I can:
“I do think there’s a good framework for thinking. It is physics. You know, the sort of first principles reasoning. …boil things down to their fundamental truths and reason up from there, as opposed to reasoning by analogy. Through most of our life, we get through life by reasoning by analogy, which essentially means copying what other people do with slight variations. And you have to do that… But when you want to do something new, you have to apply the physics approach. Physics is really figuring out how to discover new things that are counterintuitive”.

I enjoy riding my boards that were built with a similar mindset, throw out convention, try things and material people say aren’t viable or processes they say are only for “mass production”. Guys have figured it out, and are making a decent living for themselves in an industry where that’s not always a given. They don’t want to share, moreso to protect their livelihood and protect any competitive advantage they have. I respect that.

74

Lots of good points. You’ve kind of described the path I went down. Stringerless eps, then bamboo veneer, then cork veneer.
As for the juice being worth the squeeze, for me it is. I just want to see how far I can go down the x+n path, but still have it be production viable.
I think from a KISS standpoint, with the current methods and globally available materials, a 2lb. EPS with a 4/4/4 deck and 4/4 bottom is a seriously cost effective, durable, excellent performing combination. Bagging it has benefits, but depending on resources and skills can either lengthen or shorten the build time vs. a poly board.

Spot on about cost, and consumer willingness to pay. I don’t pretend to understand the artificially low costs surfboards have been able to stay at for so long. I tend to look at my boards in a cost-per-use model. A more expensive, but longer lasting board, has a lower cost per use, so in the long run it’s actually cheaper to spend a bit more and get a board with better durability characteristics.

Interestingly, I just saw an ad for a local shop that was doing a “club” membership where you bought into use of their surfboards. Come grab any board from the shop, any time you want. That changes the dynamic a bit. There’s more of an incentive to have more durable boards that still perform well.

75

Hey guys, 

Putting a new spark to this thread as i’m researching resin infusion as i want to build a board the Coil-style. I’d love to hear your thoughts on how to build a board as strong as a Coil. Personally i dont care if the board design is new, surf different or whatever. I want to build a board that is very tough [and as a byproduct of its design looks good]

What do you guys have to share on BWD his ultra short remarks? 

Polyester = high elongation. So it’s pretty tough, need a resin with the same high elongation [before break]

Nylon = tough and stiff, never worked with it.

Epoxy… nothing to add, or can we? Flexibilizers, Foaming agent, Diluents… have done a couple of test panels manually, but have not been able to reproduce the coil tough foam, theirs is  toughened the last 10mm. 

what the hell is Propylene glycol and what can it be used for?

Vac bagging. I was thinking to do a hand lay up with some diolen and ultra tough epoxy, then bag it, but… with an open [holed] bag on the fibre side. Pull in the flexible tough foam, hoping to toughen up the eps. Will do this shortly as well as this, but with foaming epoxy, though i suspect the latter will go wrong horribly.

Infusion = Coils inners are dry as hell, so you must infuse the outside, and why not infuse it with fibre on BOTH sides of the flow medium and just let the flow medium stay incoporated? This way, you have a smoother outside to spray glossy, and the ribby effect of the flow medium thickens up the laminate, dissipates forces and yields a stronger product [the do so in thicker jute/flax based products too, very thick X patterns on the outside of laminates]

Fiber orientation = on the blank do your 0+90 and then on the outside [compressed] do the -45+45 this way you dont fuck up the 90 on compression. If the outside is a tough one, this is a very fine way if accepting a blow, either by heels or by a waves, this goes for both sides. I do suspect Coil has their inner lighter fibres custom woven [and custom treated for accepting epoxy] in a flat manner as to reduce resin uptake and provide better strength because the fibres are stretched already.

Skin thickness = obivously a thicker laminate is stronger, so how do you keep the weight down? 

Surface energy = i guess this is about the bond, epoxy has a very high surface energy i believe, it pools up in puddles if the substrate is of a very different energy. What do you guys know about this?

Elastic modulus = the fibres used must match the epoxy in the modulus, right? But is there another use for it in the surfboard?

Isotropy and anisotropy? If you want a surfboard strong, not breaking, how do you deal with a side that easily compresses [deck] and one that does NOT ie bottom? I have no clue what this is aiming at.

Pushing envelope versus fooling around = i want to backyard a custom surfboard that outlasts any other surfboard around. Especially the -new- firewires that have gone elsewhere than what Bert intended, though Bert’s boards dont resist a big local impact.

Figure it out, creativity, pragmatism, fun, sounds a lot like Swaylocks to me…

Mahalo for any positively building remarks, as I am just curious and do not have the intention to hurt Coil, but can’t help myself but study their work, it is INSANE stuff, have seen their progression sinds 2012 in custom order… just better and better, they could have retired selling their tech but did not. kudos

Wouter

76

Hey guys, 

Putting a new spark to this thread as i’m researching resin infusion as i want to build a board the Coil-style. I’d love to hear your thoughts on how to build a board as strong as a Coil. Personally i dont care if the board design is new, surf different or whatever. I want to build a board that is very tough [and as a byproduct of its design looks good]

What do you guys have to share on BWD his ultra short remarks? 

Polyester = high elongation. So it’s pretty tough, need a resin with the same high elongation [before break]

Nylon = tough and stiff, never worked with it.

Epoxy… nothing to add, or can we? Flexibilizers, Foaming agent, Diluents… have done a couple of test panels manually, but have not been able to reproduce the coil tough foam, theirs is  toughened the last 10mm. 

What the hell is Propylene glycol and what can it be used for?

Vac bagging. I was thinking to do a hand lay up with some diolen and ultra tough epoxy, then bag it, but… with an open [holed] bag on the fibre side. Pull in the flexible tough epoxy, hoping to toughen up the eps. Will do this shortly as well as this, but with foaming epoxy, though i suspect the latter will go wrong horribly.

Infusion = Coils inners are dry as hell, so you must infuse the outside, and why not infuse it with fibre on BOTH sides of the flow medium and just let the flow medium stay incoporated? This way, you have a smoother outside to spray glossy, and the ribby effect of the flow medium thickens up the laminate, dissipates forces and yields a stronger product [the do so in thicker jute/flax based products too, very thick X patterns on the outside of laminates]

Fiber orientation = on the blank do your 0+90 and then on the outside [compressed] do the -45+45 this way you dont fuck up the 90 on compression. If the outside is a tough one, this is a very fine way if accepting a blow, either by heels or by a waves, this goes for both sides. I do suspect Coil has their inner lighter fibres custom woven [and custom treated for accepting epoxy] in a flat manner as to reduce resin uptake and provide better strength because the fibres are stretched already.

Skin thickness = obivously a thicker laminate is stronger, so how do you keep the weight down? 

Surface energy = i guess this is about the bond, epoxy has a very high surface energy i believe, it pools up in puddles if the substrate is of a very different energy. What do you guys know about this?

Elastic modulus = the fibres used must match the epoxy in the modulus, right? But is there another use for it in the surfboard?

Isotropy and anisotropy? If you want a surfboard strong, not breaking, how do you deal with a side that easily compresses [deck] and one that does NOT ie bottom? I have no clue what this is aiming at.

Pushing envelope versus fooling around = i want to backyard a custom surfboard that outlasts any other surfboard around. Especially the -new- firewires that have gone elsewhere than what Bert intended, though Bert’s boards dont resist a big local impact.

Figure it out, creativity, pragmatism, fun, sounds a lot like Swaylocks to me…

Mahalo for any positively building remarks, as I am just curious and do not have the intention to hurt Coil, but can’t help myself but study their work, it is INSANE stuff, have seen their progression sinds 2012 in custom order… just better and better, they could have retired selling their tech but did not. kudos

Wouter

 

bwd wrote: 

Polyester - it isn’t just a resin

Nylon

Epoxy

Propylene glycol - among other things

Vac bagging

Infusion

Fiber orientation

Skin thickness

Surface energy

Elastic modulus

Isotropy versus anisotropy

Pushing envelopes versus fun fooling around

Figure it out

Creativity

Pragmatism

Fun

like

0

77

Wouter, where ya been? Seems like you haven’t been on in a while? As to your question, my vote is for aluminum/aluminum carbon fiber vacuum bagged.

78

cool !!! i go in same way… I never see a coil here but look at them for long time on net. Seems strong against dings but not indestructible and can buckle, seems more the last tech which is lightest too. I see and repair all kind of exotics build from firewire, surftech and others and windsurfs too. two différents strength to look at : strength against break, ie buckling strength, strength against dings. to reduce break you can increase overall stiffness with stringers, and you must increase buckling strengh of skins by stiffening them, that’s sandwich skins  purpose like in windsurf. to fight against ding you must increase skin toughness by using tougher materials that in general have a lower stiffness by weight ratio, so no good for weight… i can write an demonstrate a lot about this, it’s my day job, i do it here and there in some posts.

you can make a really tough board with light eps foam and « thick » fiberglass epoxy skins. Not dead light but like shop pu pe standard. to improve it you can localy stiffened skin, at top of crown deck for breacking strengh, along bottom rails for breacking strength, under feet for dents strength around rails for ding strength. after lot of test panels i think that old school fiberglass/epoxy have his place here thanks too is good toughness/stiffness/weight ratio. Some wood too for same reasons. At the end boards i  made with wood on deck, if not rot are durables, boards i made with more glass around rails have no dings leak on rails like all those  shit boa… So for my ultimate durable boards i came back to wood deck skins and decent fiberglass rails wrapped. 

Soric is an infused media made to be part of final composit, ie libtech. for infusion you need a good seal foam…

if you want good resin intake in foam, use an « open cells » foam and not a « super fused one » and seal it with flexible low exotherm resin like those crystal clear for glass potted, take days to cured but do job. you can make one with long time set laminate epoxy flexibilised with polypropylene glycol or benzyl alcool or better reactive flexibilizer. for first face you can improve intake deepness by suck under boards. But are you sure you want resin in foam…

79

@ Wouter

Not sure what exactly you are looking for about “surface energy.” All compounds with surfaces have their own unique surface energy.  The surface energy affects how well compounds bond with each other.  For fluids, it indicates how well a fluid will spread/wet-out on solid surfaces.  Surface energy of epoxy is 44-45 dynes.  I discussed it “briefly” in this post:

https://www.swaylocks.com/comment/497460#comment-497460

“When working with any polymer, if the material surface energy is relatively low, then any coating will not flow well and fisheyes, pinholes, gaps, or air bubbles will form. If the material surface energy is too high, then the paint, ink, or coating may bleed or be difficult to control. Therefore, the surface tension of the liquid and the surface energy of the material must be matched for the application.”

https://www.tstar.com/blog/bid/33845/surface-energy-of-plastics

Surface Energy Values:

http://www.technibond.co.uk/Portals/0/blog-img/surface-energy-chart.pdf

http://www.accudynetest.com/polytable_03.html

http://www.accudynetest.com/polytable_02.html

80

You don’t need to use infusion. A wetout table and vacuum bagged lams seem to be enough. The wetout table allows you to get the material you use saturated using a predetermined resin to cloth ratio. It’s been a while, but that’s what the windsurfers were doing when I last talked to them about it. 3 layers of glass and vacuum bagged lamination.

Everysurfer was using innegra, cordura, cerex and other materials with vacuum bagged lams. I haven’t seen much from him lately.