In general terms, if you added solvents to epoxy it would behave in a similar manner (off gassing). But thinning epoxy with solvents can cause many other undesirable effects too, like shrinkage, adverse effects on the mechanical properties, etc.
You can thin Resin X and epoxy using heat though. It would eliminate the issue of the off gassing.
Jon
semantics, but there’s no way that isocyanates found in a polyurethane resin are “catalysts”; they’re reactive components of the resin.
of course the isocyanates are pre-reacted with some of the polyols; this is similar to the method used for polyurethane formulation in blank manufacture. If properly controlled, then yes; it’s likely that the amount of unreacted diisocyanate left in the mixture is almost undetectably low…but they may still be there; it’s a manufacturing quality control issue at this point; best trust your manufacturer.
finally, any unreactive diluents take up volume. the volume they occupy on mixing disappears as they evaporate. you will experience shrinkage and print through using this method. There’s plenty of ways to deal with that though.
Dunno…I’m interested to see what comes out of this. Different materials designed for surfboard manufacture is a good thing if they yield a better product. Fact is, I’m guessing that the guy out there surfing some pop-out from wherever is probably still having about as much fun as I might be on a 1400$ state of the art board; if he’s an okay surfer he’s probably shredding harder than I am, and he’s probably got more money leftover for a carnitas burrito post session too.
Yes that was a poor comparison on my part. Did I mention I didn’t do too well in organic chemistry?
-Jon
…no way that isocyanates found in a polyurethane resin are “catalysts”; they’re reactive components of the resin.
I thought this stuff was supposed to be high solids so no VOC’s? That report is also dated 1995.
It is VOC free. It does contain isocynates. Its listed right on the side of the can. They are toxic and are known to cause asthma in humans, both through inhalation exposure and dermal contact.
Translation: Don’t breathe airborne Resin X and don’t let it get on your skin. Pretty simple stuff that you should be doing already with polyester or epoxy resins.
Did someone fart?
Rode the board today. Held up pretty damn well for 1.7pcf EPS with 4+6 on the deck. Better than epoxy would have with the same core and schedule. Feel was neutral, which, if you think about it, is good. The waves were 3 or 4 feet overhead, dredging, doubling reefbreak rights and quite good, actually. Nice pop off the top and drove across bumpy windy sections nicely. Nothing earth-shattering. I didn’t surf like Andy Irons, but then, I never did. I’ve sold a full-price glassjob today (not a hardsell at all, but disclaimer-ridden and pricey at that), and have tons of interested parties. I’m taking it slow till I’ve learned how to work with it and until I can report more long-term results. I’ll keep going a while and see where this road takes me. Enjoying myself for now.
I’m curious about that too… as well as flex and tensil data, hardness, shrinkage…
Until some numbers come out, everything’s subjective and relative.
Somebody should do some test panels!
At the price of this stuff, you buy some and do some freaking test panels!!!
To me, it’s all about the subjective and relative. Hard numbers don’t affect how the board surfs. How the board feels and how much fun I have riding it are completely subjective/relative and the only things that matter, or aren’t we still talking about surfing?
Oh, and Matt has all that data. Email him and he’ll email it back to you.
You’re absolutely right, brother… surfing is really all that matters.
And for me, in my head, the numbers translate into what I can expect to feel. By looking at the numbers, I can say, “OK… it’s stiffer than this, and flexier than that… heavier than this but lighter than that…” and I can adjut my glass schedule, thickness, etc. based on what the numbers mean to me. I guess I’m just trying to elimitate some of the guesswork.
As for the MSDS information… we should all know the risks of what we choose to work with.
It is VOC free. It does contain isocynates. Its listed right on the side of the can. They are toxic and are known to cause asthma in humans, both through inhalation exposure and dermal contact.Translation: Don’t breathe airborne Resin X and don’t let it get on your skin. Pretty simple stuff that you should be doing already with polyester or epoxy resins.
The resin is 100% solids, so there is no airborne Resin X.
The real additional risk, not to be understated, is what happens if there is a fire. Then you have pretty substantial toxic fumes. So make sure you don’t have a fire.
Quote:It is VOC free. It does contain isocynates. Its listed right on the side of the can. They are toxic and are known to cause asthma in humans, both through inhalation exposure and dermal contact.
Translation: Don’t breathe airborne Resin X and don’t let it get on your skin. Pretty simple stuff that you should be doing already with polyester or epoxy resins.
The resin is 100% solids, so there is no airborne Resin X.
The real additional risk, not to be understated, is what happens if there is a fire. Then you have pretty substantial toxic fumes. So make sure you don’t have a fire.
LOL Yeah, I don’t have anything else flammable in there, or anything else toxic for that matter. It’s all cake batter and spring water.
There are diisocyanates therefore there are emissions. Perhaps not VOC emissions but diisocyanates always have emissions. 5 parts per billion is virtually nothing and that is the TLV. Spraying it is obviously worse but the main problem here is that there is no adaquate protection to diisocyanates. No mask works. Most shops have inadaquate ventillation for using urethanes no matter how binign they may seem.
Just trying to give you guys the real story here. At $80 a board extra this isn’t a threat to anyone in the supply business and simply won’t be. But for many weeks this company was denying that this was urethane and as yet I have heard of no MSDS on this stuff. Also no website. I’m seeing some fishy goings on and I don’t want to see anyone hurt. You haven’t been given proper information and the company is denying that a compound containing isocyanates has any dangerous aspects. It has also even made the claim that there are no isocyanates. BS. Be very careful.
I agree,
I think someone posted this before
“As a result, there are no free isocyanates in the resin after it is applied that could volatilize during the curing process.”
I don’t know where that information came from, but it is difficult to believe. No reaction goes to completion. The company I work for is still trying to reduce the amount of free radicals in PE, one of the most basic polymers. I doubt that a relatively new product, even if it does have substantial research preceding it can claim no free isocyanates.
“Be very careful.”
I think there is a saying… There are no old organic chemists.
Hopefully this turns out to be a great safe material, but untill I see an MSD sheet I’m not going near the stuff.
Hey,
So I’ve decided I really don’t want to be in the middle of this. But I’m glad Matt has come here and started a dialogue with us all. And I’d rather have him speak for himself. I’ve spoken with Matt numerous times and I really do feel he has only the best intentions.
I will say that all forms of resins have their health risks, and you should always be perfectly clear on those risk and how to take precautions before using it.
I think it’s pretty safe to say that you should ALWAYS use an organic vapor respirator and keep resin off of your body no matter what you’re working with. And Matt had told me that as part of his instructions before I used his Resin.
Rick.
“As a result, there are no free isocyanates in the resin after it is applied that could volatilize during the curing process.”
Diisocyanate reacts with water. All who have used this stuff say that it reacts differently in humidity. That says there is active diisocyanate and frankly there HAS TO BE. More BS. The statement above is a lie. Be careful. This is in the same chemical class as AST, another company who operated the same way and is today gone. They also operated with no right to know information. They also denied diisocyanate. They also refused MSDS. This is immoral and illegal.
In the chemical business you have the responsibility to tell your customers the truth. Their lives depend on it.
These guys need to come clean.
Hey keen…there’s plenty of old organic chemists, and I’d say the median age is only getting older now that the first method of testing a new compound isn’t tasting it (Shulgin), people have stopped decanting ether in the lab while smoking a pipe (Woodward) and companies and academic institutes have begun frowning upon researchers using stills to purify solvents on the benchtop (not to mention purifying the hooch for Friday afternoon’s party). I personally hope to live to a ripe old age and I hope to enjoy my years to come happily stringing together molecules in ways god never intended.
there’s a very high likelihood that if the formulators are good, that there are essentially no low molecular weight diisocyanates left in the mix (the ones that have a measurable vapor pressure); quite likely below the 5ppb range you’re talking about greg…you and I both know there are issues with preformulating like that though, viscosity being one of them. There WILL, however, be HEAPS of higher molecular weight isocyanates…that’s how the resin works guys…isocyanate + polyol = long chain. Ideally, you have an isocyanate at one end, a diol, and then an isocyanate at the other end. Mix with a diol and voila; low viscosity, low VOC resin. The problem here is the polydispersity; in order to get a trimer, you’re going to have residual monomer, some dimers, some tetramers and some pentamers. Really simple statistics.
there’s hazards with all of the available laminating resins these days. Epoxy has amine sensitization and potential for residual phenol or epichlorohydrin; both documented carcinogens, both with measurable vapor pressures. Polyester has styrene and explosive catalysts. Urethanes have potential for residual diisocyanates and definitely contain isocyanates. None of this stuff is “safe” per se. Read the labels, do your research, control your exposure. Nuff said.
I hear you, I work in my basement. I worry about what I am subjecting myself/girlfriend/dog to.
I found this site which describes something very similar to what you experienced.
Here is the section I am referring to.
“Isocyanates are powerful irritants to the mucous membranes of the eyes and gastrointestinal and respiratory tracts. Direct skin contact can also cause marked inflammation. Isocyanates can also sensitize workers, making them subject to severe asthma attacks if they are exposed again. Death from severe asthma in some sensitized subjects has been reported. Workers potentially exposed to isocyanates who experience persistent or recurring eye irritation, nasal congestion, dry or sore throat, cold-like symptoms, cough, shortness of breath, wheezing, or chest tightness should see a physician knowledgeable in work-related health problems.”
P.S. what glass shop are you using? PM me if you don’t want to get this thread off track.
If anyone is very concerned about isocyanate exposure when using ResinX its very easy to determine if you are being exposed. Clip-on, direct-read dosimeters are available in the marketplace to monitor your exposure levels to isocynates. They cost about $10 a piece.
-Jon
Hi Guys, I am sorry for not posting sooner. Just got back to home base and have had several issues to attend too. Thanks Great White North for the great explanation on the resin theory. I have answered Many of these questions at an older post by Rick on Jan 15.
First off. The MSDS has always been available to the small selected group using the product. I am in negotiations with various groups so MSDS are only available to end users at this time, due to pending patents and fear of reverse engineering.
Second. The website is not up because the product is not available to the public and is still in its infancy where it is now being evaluated at the shop level. Every shop has a different way of doing things and right now the select people involved are trying to work together to see the issues that come up. This will ensure isolation of production and standardize application so end users will be successful.
Third. I have never said the product did not contain Diisocyantes, the product does contain it’s own variation. However I did say that it was not a TDI or MDI but a different DI. For Greg or anyone else to say I or someone from my company was lying just simply is not true. I think by saying the statement of no TDI or MDI he jumped to his own conclusions. I have not been doing anything misleading. You all can draw your own conclusions on why personal attacks have been made against this product or myself. I will not engage in slanderous discussions. This not what this industry needs right now nor is it proper business etiquette.
Fourth. In the Jan 15 post I state that everyone using the product should wear a respirator and cover skin.
Fifth. In Ricks case he has immediate respiratory issuses that is an indicator that he is allergic to the material. He contacted me right away. This was an isolated issue and the only one so far reported. There is an amine in this product for all of you that are worried about amine sensitivity. If the part A is on the skin by it self the risk increases. I have spoken to many Dr.s about this product as to avoid any backlash. The conclusion is always the same. Different peoples bodies process different chemicals different ways and it is normally based on metabolism.
Sixth. Sanding dust in shops creates significant enough hazards to warrant a respirator regardless of what fumes or vapors exist as a result of the resins or solvents used. Wood dust is even considered a class 3 carcinogen, so sanding a stringer without a mask is even bad.
Seven. The tests in the weathering cabinet were not even done on foam, but on aluminum cards. This shows clarity and stability of the resin alone. In regards to yellowing and epoxies, they all yellow at some point, its only a matter of time. Uv absorbers/stabilizers only delay this from happening.
Eight. On another forum “snapping” or boards breaking was brought up. Several companies now have Resin-X boards going to the north shore for advanced durability testing…So far no Resin-X board has broken in half. Even those made with 1.25 lb EPS are still alive and well according to all reports.
To the swaylocks community that is opposed to what I am doing with resin-X. I can make any epoxy you want me to. The name C3D was created specifically for the composites industry and is a new label. Our company makes over 300 types of epoxies, urethanes, waterbornes and acrylics, not to mention other coatings. People with in the industry asked me for this and I am simply trying to produce what they want. I started making boards for fun. I am a backyard guy just like everyone else. I tried one leading epoxy and stopped. I have grown up in the coatings business and have a mechanical engineering background. I did extensive R & D for several snowboard manufacturers throughout the nineties. As a result, I knew I could produce various epoxy systems that focused on dynamic flex because I heard that flex was the big buzz. When I talked with people in the industry they told me all there problems with epoxy and said “been there, done that, what else do you got”. Thats when I started working on resin-X. I have read things on this forum asking why there aren’t more alternative materials. I came up with an alternative and now I am getting slammed for it before it is even off the ground. You can’t have your cake and eat it to. The negative attacks and naysayers are what prevents fresh thinking from entering this market.
I have been knee deep in the effects of foreign manufacturing far longer than surfboard industry. It has almost ruined american manufacturing where I am from (Detroit). You will never beat them at there own game. The only option is to go the other way and cater to the high end market. Walmart may sell $20 snowboards, but the growth of the market in high end has pushed good board prices over $1000. It is a shame that a passionate sport such as surfing has grown into an industry that has been selling its soul (ie: intellectual property) to be produced by people(ie: CHINA) who do not even participate. Surfing is and always will be the one of the original “extreme” sports. Its heart and soul is in custom design and craftsmanship. Who can forget the elation one feels the first time they ride a board deemed “magic”
This product will speed up production times and offer dynamic performance gains. My hope is that it will allow designers to think outside the box, continue to innovate with new shapes because different flex properties are now available. It also will allow designers to more quickly get a board in the water or on the rack at the local shop. It also eliminates the worry of long term yellowing.
Right now, I am too busy to monitor and post daily. I will however look forward to the day I can post pics of my own projects and be part of other discussions, but right now, there is not enough hours in the day.
For those of you who have supported me. Thank you
Matt
Is there really any point of worrying about patent issues when users already have the resin (could it not end up in anyones hands from there) and patents are public information anyway?
Ahh the thread’s back up out of the mud! Assuming anyone still wants to talk about building boards---->
Getting some more boards in the water. Have only promo-discounted one glass job so far, getting paid for the rest. Adapting myself to the resin. Laminating getting easier and they’re coming out cleaner. Doing boards for guys that surf Pipe, and little onshore mush. All guys I know so I can track the wear ‘n’ tear and get performance evaluations that I can interpret. Making sure to get a variety of cores: EPS in a few densities, PU, too. No pros, but some damn good surfers in the mix. The rubber’s meeting the road and answers are forthcoming. Won’t have time or $$ to make one for myself just yet. Ironic.