ResinX

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Ahh the thread’s back up out of the mud! Assuming anyone still wants to talk about building boards---->

Def ready to talk about building boards – esp resin-X boards, since those are the next three boards I’ll be making.

Would love to learn about the adaptations you’ve made to improve your results. I’ll be bringing two resin-X boards with me to Kauai tomorrow, and will be spending some time on Oahu the following week.

Matt,

Please understand that stating there is no TDI or MDI as you stated on two other forums looked very much to me like an attempt to cover up or mislead. There was never a mention on those threads of a third DI content. In fact it hasn’t been until this thread that you have attempted to explain this. DI is a very toxic compound and denying the existence of this on the forums thus far IMHO has had the appearance of being underhanded. As a company new to the surfboard industry this is no way to start. The surfboard industry has a long past with those who would take advantage of our sometimes lack of acumen in the chemicals we use. I asked you to come clean and the letter above does address some of that. It is the right of all of us in the board industry to hold suppliers to their words. It is your responsibility that those words are not misleading.

Further, for anyone to state that DI can be safely used need look no further that Rick’s testamonial. The stuff isn’t even out of the gate yet and already we have a reaction. What happens when/if thousands are using this product. As with all diisocyanates this should be used only by professionals and only in adaquately ventillated work spaces. The consequences are too high for otherwise. You have stated otherwise on the forums in question. “This product has no emissions, no fumes” has been stated numerous times on other forums. This is untrue. All urethanes do and all are diisocyanate reations. Again this is misleading or worse. No way to introduce yourself to this industry.

Anyone who thinks my words are harsh need only review what has been written on Surfermag.com to see for themselves.

…that being said…

I’ll wait for all the information to be available before I try the stuff. Too risky for my blood.

And I’m glad this thread has gotten so much attention. I was going to give it a try in a classroom full of guys with no respirators and no ventilation.

Just goes to show… you need to know what you’re dealing with when you’re working with any kind of chemical. Then make the choice that’s good for you.

Hey,

So I’ve decided I really don’t want to be in the middle of this. But I’m glad Matt has come here and started a dialogue with us all. And I’d rather have him speak for himself. I’ve spoken with Matt numerous times and I really do feel he has only the best intentions.

I will say that all forms of resins have their health risks, and you should always be perfectly clear on those risk and how to take precautions before using it.

I think it’s pretty safe to say that you should ALWAYS use an organic vapor respirator and keep resin off of your body no matter what you’re working with. And Matt had told me that as part of his instructions before I used his Resin.

Rick.

I have a board glassed with Resin-X, it rips. It surfs solid, not “twitchy”. I have two more in production for my personal quiver.

Resin-X is tricky to work with, like epoxy and it’s a little spendy like epoxy. Personally, I like the way Resin-X surfs better than epoxy but that is just my opinion and every surfer has to figure out what works best for them, including all the different foams out there these days. I really like the Just Foam/Resin-X combo that Marlin Bacon has been doing. My Shawn Ambrose board with Resin-X is from a Bennett blank and he just shaped me a stringerless. DJ Kane is shaping me an EPS to be glassed with Resin-X. Not sure which EPS he is using.

Last month an Oceanside laminator’s arm swelled up like a ballon after a night shift of glassing boards with epoxy. I have seen photos on swayocks of people glassing boards with epoxy in their living rooms, that seems a little extreme.

There are some photos of Stretch’s new epoxy glass shop on santacruzlineup.com under the “shapes” section, notice all the workers are wearing protective gear: http://www.santacruzlineup.com/ I don’t know what brand of epoxy Stretch uses.

I work in a traditional poly glass shop and we wear the same gear too. It’s good professional work sense.

Remember Greg Loehr’s ad hominem attacks against Firewire until they started buying his resin? That’s cool.

I advise all swaylockian regulars NOT to use Resin-X, Greg Loehr has invested a lot of time in you all and you shouldn’t bite the hand that feeds. Matt is a sincere guy from the American heartland and Resin-X was supposed to be a fun project to do. But surfing is no longer fun, it is cut throat and ugly where you post one thing on a message board and then go hang out in the generica China booth at ASR San Diego.

In my opinion Resin-X is a performance surfing resin and is not for the spring suit booty man fun board crowd. If you hit the lip you might want to try Resin-X, but if not no worries, the world won’t stop spinning.

“Treat all resins like AIDS containmented blood.”

–Greg Loehr

yup

brought back memories of this famous argument:

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=259634;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;guest=16966238

except the shoe was on the other foot I guess

a medical professional I used to hang out with (CMP) got so fed up about the materials BS he just left…

toxic is toxic don’t matter what you call it

take precautions or pay the price

no good excuse not too

As a hobbyist, it’s fun for me to try and stay abreast with some of the new tech. Of course I am interested in Resin-X and spent quite a long time with Matt on the phone discussing the product before ordering a trial pack.

To his credit, he advised that as with any potentially hazardous raw material, mask and protective gear be used. This was before the latest round of online attacks against him and urethanes in general.

Urethanes are used in a number of surf and skate industry products - skate wheels and leashes for instance. As with many other raw materials, everyone should be aware of the risks and protective themselves accordingly. A mask is in order while just cutting glass cloth with scissors.

Blindly playing with any of this stuff without protection is like playing Russion Roulette. Let’s all be careful out there.

At least someone pointed out the slight conflict of interest. I always thought you could slather yourself in RR epoxy and just wash it off with Gojo and you were fine. Greg clearly stated that he NEVER heard of a sensitization issue from RR epoxy unless acetone was involved. I think I’ll go bathe in some tonight.

And for the record, I have used or currently use polyester, epoxy, and Resin X resins and I use the same overkill personal protection each and every time and have suffered no ill effects. I dont even uncap any of it without proper ventilation or my respirator on. My grandfather died young from working in the automotive refinish business in the 40s thru the 70’s when they didnt know or didnt give a shit about breathing chemicals, I’d rather not repeat that.

Totally agree…

I call it… “staying clean.” The two most preventative things you can do to keep healthy is protect your skin and protect your lungs. Keep those things in mind and by the time you be come sensitized, or whatever, you’ll be so old it won’t matter!

I don’t care what any manufacturer says… All resins, cloths, plastics and foams are potential killers. Respect them as such.

Somebody famous was saying how in order to beat the overseas market, the domestic board builder needs to think outside the box, trying new materials, making long lasting, quality surfboards. I’m no world changer, but for what it’s worth, I’m glassing my next board with ResinX.

With Matt’s help, I’m rapidly becoming comfortable with X. I’m making some sweeping changes in how I work, because there’s now 3 resin systems in my shop. Im starting to lay down some really clean work that I’m actually looking forward to sanding. All I can say is, contact Matt with your questions, because he really knows his stuff. I’m getting really jazzed on working with it and it’s only been a handful of boards. Very polished product. Can’t wait to see how the boards hold up and surf.

Greg,

I do understand. You sell a resin that goes on a board. I am making a different kind of resin that goes on a board that is not at all like other resins before it (including AST witch from what I have heard was very different than mine and had different limitations). No one has said I have tried to mislead them or do anything underhanded except you… Frankly I take it as a compliment that you feel it worth your time to comment on. Thus making your intentions transparent. In regards to posts on SurferMag that was not what the discussions where about at that time and there is not a mention of MDI or TDI by myself. As far as Board Makers (a private forum you must be invited on) I did answer, go and look it up. I do talk about Diisocyanates and say it is in the product, but that is not a TDI or MDI but an other DI type. That was posted there at 2:06 am on Dec. 18 2007.

Rick’s testimonial was something that was more like an allergy attack. Much like a peanut butter allergy. There are people that can not be in the same room as epoxy. There are thousands of people using such products like Resin-X in other industries that have been used for over a decade and they are far safer than the typical iisocyanate urethanes (60% solids) which you are trying to pigeon hole this product into.

The facts are the product has safely been used in other versions for many other uses that take place on a much larger surface areas in which exposure is far greater. The real risks in the surfboard industry is solvents that may be used in cleaning the product off tools that may break it down in to a more viscous state making it easier to enter through the skin. Similar to epoxy the safest and cleanest way is to use disposable tools that that can be pitched or resin can be broken off and plastic squeegee reused.

As far as Amine skin sensitivity is concearned: There is an Amine on the A side just like an epoxy. In theory the product goes off so much faster that it would be harder to penetrate the skin. In the case of the Amine, the ratio is smaller on the A side than an epoxy. That said, anyone who would spill just the A side of either epoxy or resin-X on their skin is more likely to get a skin issue in that area.

I find this hole thing ironic that long ago you where the one in my place and and the polyester crew was all over you. Don’t you think your time is better spent on those other makers of epoxy that already have market share. If any one should understand what I am trying to do it should be you. I am trying to give the glass shop an alternative that they can make a larger profit margin on… in a shorter production period and distinguish themselves at the cutting edge of performance so that the work dommesticly stays here. I could have taken this product to other composites industries first but I wanted to see if I could help the surf industry because of the current market and because I love surfing and making boards. Instead of looking at me as someone who is trying to facilitate a small high end market which is a good thing for you because it makes your product more price point, you see me as a threat and want to lash out. Remember this product is still in testing and it remains to be seen that the buying public is going to gravitate toward it at all.

The product is not available to the public at large, so MSDS are given out only to the approved users of the product. I could see what the problem would be if I was not willing to do so to the users. However that is not the case.

I have nothing against your product or your efforts, and look forward to the possibility of it adding to the choices we all can make. Hopefull, you’ll be very successful and we will all benefit.

My fear is that in this type of environment, at this time, there is a great willingness among us in the board building community to share… ideas, techniques, and materials.

“I just got a big batch of ‘Wonder Resin’… wanna try some?”

“Sure!”

And without knowing what we’re getting into, someone gets hurt.

Thank you for making it clear here on Sways that the users of your product need to take precautions because the health risks are very real. And I say this knowing the true dangers of some of the other products readily available and in wide use.

With that in mind, I hope you consider putting up SOME kind of website stating the risks and precautions one needs to take when using your product. This information should go side-by-side with all the other pluses and minuses of Resin X. What is there to gain by not warning people of potential dangers? You don’t have to give away any trade secrets. Just let people know how to be safe, so their experiences are good and long with Resin X.

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With that in mind, I hope you consider putting up SOME kind of website stating the risks and precautions one needs to take when using your product. This information should go side-by-side with all the other pluses and minuses of Resin X. What is there to gain by not warning people of potential dangers? You don’t have to give away any trade secrets. Just let people know how to be safe, so their experiences are good and long with ResinX.


I’m not sure where you are getting this information that Matt doesn’t have plans to disclose this information BUT… From what Matt has personally told me, and publicly stated, he will be making all this information publicly available once his Resin X is publicly available. Until then, its in trials. Anyone who wants to try it must get it directly through him. I have the Resin X and the MSDS are available to me. Who is Greg Loehr or anyone else for that matter to say what Matt has or hasn’t disclosed to any of us using his product.

I know from my experience with Matt that he has been more than forthcoming in informing me what the safety concerns are as well as ways to limit my exposure. After getting the resin from Matt and talking with him for a good hour or so about the Resin X he gave me his personal cell # and told me too call if I had any questions. I mean, he was even taking my calls when waiting on line for a ride at Disney with his family!! How is that for being concerned about the people using your product.

The resin is probably not for everyone, but neither is polyester or epoxy. With proper environmental controls and personal protection its just as safe or safer than other resins on the market. He never once claimed “as safe as peanut butter” as someone has when talking about toxic chemicals, which ahem…is a little bit misleading to say the least.

-Jon

Hey NJ surfer, I understand your concerns when it goes public. As far as the website goes, I love it. It looks great, my friend who did it is a class act the does all the stuff for Ford Motocraft and so much more back here in the D. I really wanted a lot out of the site and we have been sitting on it for a while now. As far as that info goes a lot of it is right on the label and people who are already using it can just look it up. I am big into safety and people will see my labels have a lot more on them than most. In fact if they have a can they know what is in it. So I would say I am more conservative if anything by putting more on the label of the product it self like a bigger paint company would.

There is absolutely nothing to gain by hiding anything. There is first aid instructions on the can and there is storage and handling on the can as well, that goes into great detail of all warnings of incompatibility and health hazards, exposures,etc. I do not see any one else in this industry with labels as comprehensive as mine. In fact, much of the MSDS is right on the darn can. Which gets back to Greg and his attacks on me being unsafe. You guys have not even seen the can which is conservative by your existing markets standards. Some people in the industry barely have more than their name and the product name. The precautions and risks are right on the can. How could I make it any darn easier. People all ready want me to print out a successful guide to using it , which is a great Idea. I can honestly say though, I have never had to do that before for other industries. I am just starting to wonder if I am going to have to read it to them as well.

Sorry to vent NJ surfer it is not at you directly, I have not been the one starting these posts. I have never started a post on my own product yet for many reasons. However I can not control those who do and I really don’t care if they do. The main reason I do not want to post my self is time. I have so very little right now.

I think it is funny that I came out to SoCal in Oct. for Scared Craft to have fun and check things out. Talk to people about the resin a little and get to check out the boards my new friends had been making. Come November I all ready new who was wanting to reverse engineer the product or try to find something that they think they can pass of as similar but much cheaper and I hear of others wanting to as well. My patents cover more than people might think but I just want to be careful. I am a realist, there is not much money to be made in surf boards or surfboard resin. That said, it is a great test bed for other markets. I have been back there twice sense then. So It is not my desire to let something go out into many hands with out keeping tabs on issues that may become concerns. The people I started this off with suggested going slow. Things take forever in this industry anyway. Or at least a lot longer than most. Don’t get me wrong I am happy to see the interest. I just think people are jumping the gun a little is all. Once the product is out there a little longer we may be able to talk a little more about some of its qualities and limitations.

I have worked side by side with Matt in the coatings industry and board building. From day one Matt was about safety. He has seen and heard

many health hazzard stories in his line of work. Matt has been in the coatings

industry for close to twenty years. He knows his stuff. He offers free tech support to many coating companies across the U.S. All by referal. His knowledge is backed by his reputation.

Two years ago Matt had a vision, to make the most user friendly

resin that carried with it all the performance features a tech head

could ask for. Resin x is not a modified floor epoxy. It is straight up

a high end resin with flex and strength properties to answer to the most

finickey pro. Glasser or surfer.

On a quick other note… Whats the story with the Grubby t shirts for sale?

who makes the profit on these? A company for years dodged and misled

The consumer of his product, a product that was poisoning his own employees. Nice, chalk me up for one.

When one door closes, another opens. You all know this to be true… Surfcraft design and theory has made huge leaps and bounds the last few years with close of Clark. The industry was caught with is pants down.

And I know darn well RR epoxy was flying off the shelves to cover the EPS

demand. An alternative that benefited from a closed door.

Kings only sit atop the throne so long before revolution starts to

rise. The evolution you can’t stop. It’s here. And I get the biggest kick

that it hails from the corn fed lakes. Who would of thought a mid west kid

with only drive of passion could raise such a ruckus.

It is one thing to challenge and question.

To flat out bash, that’s another.

Peace,

Scott

Great thread!!!

Let’s rewind to 2006. Suddenly EPS and Epoxy was in high demand and it took weeks and weeks for Greg Loehr to get his MSDS information out. Literally, hundreds of boards were glassed with RR resin before he supplied MSDS sheets. Ask any of the Oceanside, CA glass shops.

How come Javier from Epoxy Pro doesn’t come on Swaylocks and scream down Matt and Resin-X? Why don’t the Patagonia guys come on Swaylocks and scream down Matt and Resin-X?

Just what was Greg Loehr, “sofisicated” hero to the domestic surfboard shaper, doing hanging out in the China booth at the 2008 ASR tradeshow in San Diego???

I had a dream where i asked tom waits his opinion on resins and marketting and people who’s dad’s get them jobs, about surfing and surfboards and arizona and china and humans and he just said

Oh that the monkey can climb

The more he shows his tail

Call no man happy 'til he dies

There’s no milk at the bottom of the pail

God builds a church

The devil builds a chapel

Like the thistles that are growing

'round the thrunk of a tree

All the good in the world

You can put inside a thimble

And still have room for you and me

If there’s one thing you can say

About Mankind

There’s nothing kind about man

You can drive out nature with a pitch fork

But it always comes roaring back again

Misery’s the River of the World

Misery’s the River of the World

Misery’s the River of the World

For want of a bird

The sky was lost

For want of a nail

A shoe was lost

For want of a life

The knife was lost

For want of a toy

A child was lost

Misery’s the River of the World

Misery’s the River of the World

Everybody Row! Everybody Row!

Misery’s the River of the World

Misery’s the River of the World

Everybody Row! Everybody Row!

then i stabbed out the speakers on a 65 fender twin reverb while in a tom curren drop knee tube stance and went surfing high on opium and resin fumes there was lots of laughter followed by stoicism

Ok time to change the subject. If you have made a board out of Resin-X or ridden a board with it. What do you think of the ride?

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Let's rewind to 2006. Suddenly EPS and Epoxy was in high demand and it took weeks and weeks for Greg Loehr to get his MSDS information out. Literally, hundreds of boards were glassed with RR resin before he supplied MSDS sheets. Ask any of the Oceanside, CA glass shops....

I downloaded the PDFs from the web and read them before my board was glassed…they were freely available at the time.

This was in late 2004…

I also spoke at length to Greg on the phone and got tons of details about glassing and using the product (and composite construction advice). He’s a riot.

Obviously there is a lot of interest in ResinX and that is a good thing. I for one am quite interested in materials properties - simple things like what is the flex and compression modulus of the resin when impregnated with glass? How does it creep (this is a test that typical epoxies do well on, and typical polyurethanes are poor and may relate to airline travel for one example)? What is its yield strength in a typical layup? What glass schedules work out reasonably? How much does it weigh compared to a layup in polyester or epoxy? Any design engineering question is only answered, at the present, in very sweeping qualitative terms. And you cannot do engineering design in sweeping qualitative terms. But maybe that is intentional for now.

Greg is passionate about environmentalism and worker safety. If you look at the way he structured his own glassing or spoke to him for more than five minutes it would be quite obvious. He is also proud of his product. But I suspect it was his passion for worker safety, and not any competitive issue, that led to his previous posts…if you assume good faith the world has a lot less spite in it. Like, I don’t think that your prior near-psychotic rants against the epoxy resin surf industry in any way led you to any sort of conspiracy when you wrote the above post?

By the way, it is patently illegal, and easily actionable, if a vendor does not make the MSDS for his product available. The business in which the chemical is used if also responsible for providing the MSDS to their workers, and ensuring the work environment meets the necessary precautions for chemical safety. I am sure both Greg and Matt know this very well, you cannot survive very long in the resin industry if you do not.