Rich Harbour sees no benefit to using epoxy - do you agree?

General Discussion
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Rich replying to an inquiry on his site www.harboursurfboards.com …

One of the main reasons things are going one slow with the tests on epoxy is the lack of enthusiasm from the general public. For example, Tim put his used, absolutely cherry 9-0 epoxy H-3 for sale in the used board racks about 6 weeks ago. It is priced under $500.00, which is very reasonable for an epoxy. It is still sitting there. There are just a handful of customers that are interested in epoxy and the rest just want a board made like their last one.

We have built about a half dozen epoxy boards using both Clark and EPS foam using Resin Research epoxy resin. At this point we cannot see any distinct advantage that makes up for the extra cost. If you keep it lighter than a standard polyester board it is weaker. Make it the same weight and there seems to be nothing gained but price. We are not done with testing, and the next will be increasing the foam density to Classic and using a heavier deck lamination with a 4 oz. bottom. At this point, I can see no advantage in EPS foam.

In answering your question, yes, we have a glass shop that can do it. The finish work will not be quite up to Waterman’s standards but very acceptable. If you are serious about one in the immediate future, email the shop with the details of what shape, length, stringer, and color you want and we can work up a price.

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We have built about a half dozen epoxy boards using both Clark and EPS foam using Resin Research epoxy resin. At this point we cannot see any distinct advantage that makes up for the extra cost. If you keep it lighter than a standard polyester board it is weaker. Make it the same weight and there seems to be nothing gained but price. We are not done with testing, and the next will be increasing the foam density to Classic and using a heavier deck lamination with a 4 oz. bottom. At this point, I can see no advantage in EPS foam.

Isn’t this a bit contradictonary? He basically says that you can’t save weight with epoxy/PU, but does see no advantages with EPS?

regards,

Håvard

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Rich Harbour is a perfectionist. The learning phase of EPS/epoxy construction produces quite a few cosmetic flaws. I can imagine Rich unable to let a few boards bear his logo during this phase.

If he keeps experimenting he’ll produce a top quality, handmade in the USA, epoxy surfboard. Perhaps longboard customers are not into “light” these days.

Rich is doing the right thing by offering different matierials. Perhaps he should explore a different density EPS or stringer alternatives. Or focus epoxy construction on his shorter boards and “performance” longboards.

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I don’t think shapers like Harbour who get custom blanks from Clark are all that interested in starting all over with EPS blanks. And rightly so.

I’ve had several Harbours, as have friends, and in addition to suring great and looking great, they are very durable boards. I can’t imagine needing a board any stronger than their usual boards. In other words,while there may prove to be some advantage to using epoxy for guys busting airs or pulling into shorebreak closeouts all day long on their usual cheeply-made shortboards, there isn’t an advantage when comparing an epoxy longboard to one of Harbour’s regular longboards.

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I use epoxy (Resin Research) exclusively because I don’t have to use a respirator to apply it, I don’t have a bucket of resin on the floor when I’m through, and when used, correctly it costs less. Also, if you believe the aircraft industry and the materials engineers, epoxy and EPS is significanlty lighter and stronger. I don’t believe there can be any debate about this. Burt Rutan flew around the world with it (non-stop) and continues knock down the barriers with his new stuff. He didn’t us PU or PE.

Having said that, I do love Harbor Longboards. IMHO, LB’s ought to be heavier. Rich is a master among masters and I admire the heck out of his work. My first board was a Harbor Cheater about 35 years ago.

I want it both ways. Sort of.

And Rich, thanks so much for your posts here on Swaylocks. As you can tell by the “read” count, everyone reads what you post.

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I have nothing against RH, but this type of thinking is similar to the just released issue of Surfing Mag with Al Merrick getting the

“Shaper of the Year” award…AM is just now experimenting with some epoxy…blah blah. Geez man its taken you 35 years to work with some epoxy???

What a joke…lack-of-infommercial propaganda puff piece…

“Rob is like this, Kelly is like that…they’re both so cool…they like my boards so Im cool too…blah blah”

Bottom line…strength and/or weight…thats the advantage.

Here’s a real world example…

I shape mid-size shorties and these are the facts:

finished shape using Clark Blue: 3.7 to 4.0 lb

finished shape using EPS: 2.0 to 2.5 lb

Now I have the option of lamming to PU/PE weight and get a FAR stronger shell/board or go lighter with an equivalent or slightly stronger than PE shell.

Its simple really…Im taking mass out of the core and putting it on the shell where it counts…this is exactly what Bert does but much better.

The real motivation is profit. You can get a stronger longer lasting board using S-glass yet hardly no pro builder uses it…the sad part is that S-glass is only $2-3 more per yard than E…the $ increase by using S is $10-20 per board…I’d pay $50 more if I knew the board was to last longer. Does RH offer S option?

Planned product useful life…the con continues…

PS - there is little or no evidence of epoxy lam on a used board on a rack…how does the customer know? Maybe the board has some funky artwork and wont sell? There’s 100 reasons why a board doesnt sell and RH blames epoxy???

Perhaps customers need to better educated?

hmmmmm…

PS2 - you can make epoxy flex too…hmmmmmmm

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Quote:

Here’s a real world example…

I shape mid-size shorties and these are the facts:

finished shape using Clark Blue: 3.7 to 4.0 lb

finished shape using EPS: 2.0 to 2.5 lb

What weight EPS?

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I have nothing against RH, but this type of thinking is similar to the just released issue of Surfing Mag with Al Merrick getting the

“Shaper of the Year” award…AM is just now experimenting with some epoxy…blah blah. Geez man its taken you 35 years to work with some epoxy???

Some people, like you apparently, see shaping as some sort of materials project. Guys like AM and RH see shaping as about the shape of the surfboard itself and the way it functions in the water.

There is your difference. While others are experimenting with different materials and construction techniques and hoping to make a name for themselves in that way, the best shapers out there are spending their time actually working on the shapes themselves and continually refining them as well as offering up new designs. And I thank them for it! I’ve had several boards from AM and several from RH and all gave me much pleasure and none of them needed to be lighter or last longer. Case closed, for me.

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Is weight savings really that much of a proponent in surfboard design? Does a pound really make any difference performance wise?

I can’t tell a diference. I suppose that those that fall into the folly of thinking that they can surf better with a slightly lighter wieght board feel they can…and if that be the case then so be it. let them buy whatever makes them more stoked to surf.

Epoxy on a longboard for weight savings is a rather weak argument. Even the most HP of longboards is not going to perform any better if it weighs a couple of pounds less. it is my preference that a super lightweight longboard is actually a liability in a lot of conditions.

Strength issue, yeah if it is out there then i could buy that…but a decent glass job of 6, 6+6 is as strong as i’ll ever need for a longboard usign poly. If you are worried then go a tad heavier, hey it’s a longboard, it’s not supposed to be light.

I feel that the greatest factor for epoxy is the environmental, and health issues associated with polyester, MEKP, and acetone.

Yes i would like to get into epoxy at some point in time however, with the UV cured resin there is less of an initiative for me now to make the jump. But I do commend those that are proponents of it and feel that it will eventually gain industry wide acceptance to at least some degree.

Drew

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Historically, changes in surfboard technology that could be either stronger boards, or less weight, always result in a surfboard similar in strength but lower in weight.

We maneuver our boards by applying torques to them through our legs. The response of the board depends on its inertia, which depends on its weight. Lighter boards definitely make a difference. If you’ve ever had a chance to spend a lot of time on a 5-6 pound shortboard or a 9-10 pound 9’6" longboard, and then went back to more conventional weights like 8 lbs and 15 pounds, you would feel like you were riding an uncontrollable clunker. Not quite uncontrollable, but just sorta clumsy.

Weight matters. RH and AM are the best in the world at SELLING surfboards. RH doesn’t think he will SELL more boards by using epoxy. He could be right…

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Yeah,

ridden a 9’4 epoxy and compared to my 9’4 stewart, both HP’s, I really couldn’t tell much difference.

Just don’t think a few punds matters enought to warrant a change in my methods. Other factors would have more impact on me.

Drew

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Just wanted to quantify one aspect of this discussion, that of the “big” guys like Al Merrick allegedly not using epoxy. They use it alright, just not yet for the vast number of general production boards you see in most shop racks. As a matter of fact I know that AM has tested epoxies by using them as his own personal riders. Given that CI makes and sells thousands of boards a year, I’m sure that any potential new material would get tested long and hard before being put into the permanent rotation. Lost has done this also. Several manu’s are also looking into HydroEpic’s hollow boards as well. Some have turned to Surftech. Does that mean that any of these will become the predominant type of board sold by these labels overnight? Probably not, but I still applaud all of the various players for at least having an open mind. As for Harbour’s aversion to epoxy, I don’t doubt it given that most of his boards are more suited to a heavier weight construction. I’ve heard many people say that Epoxy longboards are “corky”. RH is just selling to his core audience, and I can’t blame him for that. After all, he is running a business. And if someone wants an Epoxy board, it looks like they’ll just go elsewhere to get one. Maybe if enough orders go by the wayside that too will change…

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A lot of solid points have been made here. I’d like to make a few more.

First, weight matters… a lot. Strength to weight is what composites are all about. No matter what the weight, you want the best strength AT THAT WEIGHT. Epoxy resins are simply better at this.

Second, A half dozen boards is not really enough to make serious judgments. I congratulate Rich for experimenting, more in this industry should. But Rich has stuck a toe in the water while some of us have jumped in. I’ve had long discussions with Rich and he shows the necessary enthusiasm but I feel he still isn’t seeing the whole picture, which is a multitude of new combinations and how to engineer composite structures for each individual purpose. Also as stated above, Rich may not have the right market for the product. Bert and I have both made tens of thousands of epoxy boards but we have gone in different directions responding to consumer demand in our respective local markets. Finding that market is a very different thing than R&D. And just changing resin from poly to epoxy is NOT going to give miraculous results. It takes a bit more effort than that.

Third, if/when the laws that have been on the books for over a decade are enforced the whole debate will be moot. Surfboard polyesters are today illegal to use in open laminating NATIONWIDE. Epoxies used in surfboards are 100% solids and have 1/50th the vapor of polyester surfboard resins. The day will come when ONLY epoxies will be used. That day is not far off.

Forth, Rich stated that epoxies were more expensive to build. Any laminator worth his salt can laminate an epoxy board with half the resin as a polyester. We actually use 1/3rd. The reasons are many but the main one is lack of solvents. Epoxies go further because they stay in the laminate, where they belong, and don’t go into the air or deep into the blank adding weight and polluting the environment. Polyester resins are now knocking at $1000 per drum. RR epoxy is $1735 per drum of mixed material. If I’m getting twice the number of boards then I stand to SAVE money. And by the way, polyesters aren’t done. There is a worldwide shortage of benzene (styrene is vinyl benzene) that will continue to drive prices higher. Ethylene, the other main component in styrene is also going up. Inventories of styrene, in Asia in particular, are very low. The history of epoxy over the last 20 years is that prices are generally pretty stable. Our prices over that time have risen about 65% while polyesters have risen over 500%. Any surfboard builder who wants to SAVE money in the future better start thinking differently. As for difficulty in using epoxies, most of you here know that’s a thing of the past.

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Lighter boards definitely make a difference. If you’ve ever had a chance to spend a lot of time on a 5-6 pound shortboard or a 9-10 pound 9’6" longboard, and then went back to more conventional weights like 8 lbs and 15 pounds, you would feel like you were riding an uncontrollable clunker. Not quite uncontrollable, but just sorta clumsy.

Weight matters. RH and AM are the best in the world at SELLING surfboards. RH doesn’t think he will SELL more boards by using epoxy. He could be right…

Yeah Blakestah’s the man…

You could easily lump groups…those that shred and those that don’t. Lighter is BY FAR more shredable. I’m 41 y/o and I’ll bet a weeks pay that the typical 20 something shortboarder on his pu/pe can’t compete with me…I prove it almost every session. If you think you can hang with me bring your weeks pay and lets get it on. Lightweight epoxy’s are far superior.

Forgot to add the best part of this debate…I bought a Greg Loehr epoxy in 1991…went right to his house to pick it up, payed $350 cash. Rode the 6’6 thruster for 6 years…cleaned the wax off, sanded it lightly and put it on consignment at the local surfshop competing with about 25 other used boards and about 100 new brand name boards…the Loehr sold in less than a day for $200.

How’s that for resale value.

Hey Mar…I’ve shaped both PU and EPS and ride both…but I’ll take the EPS anytime…if youre a non-progressive surfer it doesnt make much difference. Ride what you like…shoots man…the more the masses stay on the current course the better it is for me on my ESoxy.

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On the environmental level, I’m all for epoxy. Heck, I’m all for wood even. But lots of surfers out there happen to like the way that current boards feel and unless that can be duplicated in epoxy or wood, then it’s going to be hard to get “the market” to change what they are surfing.

Despite the hype of the shapers/manufacturers, it’s pretty clear that surfers in general aren’t all that interested in lighter or stronger boards.It’s clear most surfers don’t feel their surfboards die too early of a death. It’s pretty clear that what they are really interested in is the shape/design and the feel. If someone out there can make great designs on the level of AM or RH and provide the feel of traditional clark foam boards, then we’ll be talking. Such creations may exist. Maybe Greg Loehr is creating them. (If so, it’s a shame it’s remained such a secret around here.)

But the way to promote new materials is not to ignore or dismiss or belittle the claims of surfers who say they just don’t like the way those new materials make their surfboards feel! Saying things along the lines of, “well, if you surfed hard enough you would care about durability more,” is also not going to win you many fans. Perhaps eps/epoxy isn’t the end of the line. Perhaps it was a good idea but just doesn’t provide the most important part of the equation in many surfer’s minds (need i say it again? feel.) So maybe we need to keep the wheels turning and developing until we can find a product that is perfect.

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Some people, like you apparently, see shaping as some sort of materials project. Guys like AM and RH see shaping as about the shape of the surfboard itself and the way it functions in the water.

There is your difference. While others are experimenting with different materials and construction techniques and hoping to make a name for themselves in that way, the best shapers out there are spending their time actually working on the shapes themselves and continually refining them as well as offering up new designs. And I thank them for it! I’ve had several boards from AM and several from RH and all gave me much pleasure and none of them needed to be lighter or last longer. Case closed, for me.

Hey Mar,

ok the beer buzz has worn off. Y’know, a friend calls me and tells me about the Surfing mag article and excitedly mentions some tech stuff…so I go to the store and buy it…I read the article and was disappointed…almost no mention of SHAPING/DESIGNING and what makes his boards tick…Proly the mags fault but still, how’bout a little insight into design Al? Btw, Al’s boards have been my go to reference during my learning…this may come as a shocker but I can closely duplicate any of his shapes on PU or EPS. I’m not a materials guy…I’ve just accomplished a good amount on the design side and now Im in board improvement phase of my passion…call me passionate more than anything else. It’s truly a great feeling knowing I can make a better board than the “Shaper of the Year”…I can closely match the design but using better/lighter materials and BINGO…Joe Nobody like me can have a better board…riding a lightweight is like being 25 y/o again. Someone mentioned recently that pu/pe is the tried and true, general purpose medium…if you want to move up to a higher performance standard you gotta go in a different direction

Blakestah, I’ve used #2 and #1.5 EPS so the range is 2 - 2.5lb.

I plan to use #1 in a few days/weeks too…the short term goal is getting below 6lb with good durability…after that is on to the next challenge…gotta keep progressing…the more I progress equipment wise the better I surf and the more fun I have…yeah fun…I like that

Greg once mentioned that the theoretical ideal weight is “zero”…think about how that would feel like…like your floating on air…

…thats progress gentlemen

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I would expect people heavily weighted into future money to be made in the production of Epoxy/EPS surf and sailboards to be the strongest proponents of that technology. I would also expect those who have spent hard earned years gaining experience, knowledge and $$$ shaping , Polyurethane/Polyester to not quickly jump on the Epoxy bandwagon. To the average surfer(other than the die-hard enthusiast like some of us), there IS no noticeable differance between the two. He can also not understand why he should pay the additional 200 ----300 dollars for epoxy. What I sense in threads like this(Epoxy/Polyester debates) is an attempt usually by the Epoxy folks to paint highly experienced, innovative world class shapers as dinosaurs. Promotion of their own $$$$-making agenda, while putting down the industry standard. McDing

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Cost is not $200-300 more.

Cost is more like $30-50 more, comparing apples to apples (epoxy over PU compared to polyester over PU).

$200-300 more would be a custom epoxy sandwich construction compared to a custom polyester over polyurethane - something like a Bob Miller or Greg Loehr compared to a local shaper using the cheapest glassing schedule.

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We must also recognize that most surfers aren’t aware of the improvements and progression that has been made in materials. Most surfer change the static shape of their boards before trying new materials, this is because poly, fiberglass boards do work, they are the status quo. I think Epoxy boards are the future because lighter weigth and stronger or just as strong boards can help a surfers performance, as well as the right shape. AM is selling a good amount of boards using older methods and most buyers are more then happy with his product. BTW he is using surftech now as well as many other big shapers so they are starting to use the technology more, however they charge more. I’ve also heard that people who leave their surftech’s in their car in the sun have messed them up pretty bad, does anyone know if they are using extruded polysterene in their sandwiche construction?

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I will give you this; $50 differance in a clear epoxy lay-up over polyurethane foam. Epoxy over EPS more $ yet. Surftec vs. say a Pearson off the rack: now we’re getting into the $200 differance(apples to oranges of course). I admitt that a Surftec paint job is really cool and the epoxy sandwichs are strong. But a clear epoxy/eps never looks as cosmetically perfect as a polyester does. When the Average-Joe walks into a shop and starts looking at boards that have visible foam and stringer he usually won’t pay the extra for Epoxy unless you can sell him on its advantages. Hd McDing