Rich.This question has to do with shaping 50/50 rails on a longboard.You explained in your last post the sequence you used to roll the bottom and crown the deck.This is about rail bands.Lets say we want to do a pretty thin knife rail.How many rail bands would you have on the deck and how many on the bottom?Lastly I would assume that at some point you would place the blank at an angle in the shaping rack to finish the bands(unless I am assuming too much) and was wondering how many passes you do at this point?I know that all boards are different but for practical purposes maybe you could just average it out.Thanks for you help.
It’s all a matter of feel. I don’t pencil on a bunch of guide lines although there is nothing wrong with that. I know what it is going to look like before I start. Each board is different. With my trusty 7.5 amp Skil 100, maybe 3 or 4 full passes tapering at the ends on the bottom at about 45 degrees, then a couple of tapering passes splitting the difference at the now created corner on the deck, and then a light pass on the lower side rail corner. The deck gets 3 full passes at 45 degrees and 2 tapered, with the same cleanup passes (as I did on the deck) on the created corners. I really just do it by the feel of what’s happening. I keep going until it looks like what I planned to look like. If I’m in there every day I can really attack it, and if it’s been a few, then I’m a little more cautious. In the latter case, the second rail goes much faster because I’m now up to speed.
Depending on the situation, I’ll either take it smoother with my 2800 rpm sander that is connected to a volt slider on the wall, then some surform and block sanding on the rails. Or sometimes I might use one of my block planes (mine always are extremely sharp) to put a couple of bands on. I like seeing curls of foam on the , floor. How many shaping rooms have those? I don’t turn the rail on edge until I round over the final 1" of outline. That needs to be saved until the very last, or you lose the outline.
Thanks Rich.I am right in tune with you…my methods are about the same.THe only time I have ever put a navigation mark down was for the initial full 45 degree rail band and that was only at the wide point.Like you when I feel “rusty” I tend to be more careful.Now about the sander thing…I have tried it with bad results.When using the sander on the deck I got out of whack when coming up the nose.The rocker was the problem.I saw a video of Rawson using one to perfection.He appeared to have his shaping stand set really high(tit level) and just floated it across the blank.I assume we all use Milwaukees with variable speed or remote speed control box.My big question is are you using soft or medium pad?Also are you using the full weight of the sander or holding it up and floating it?Sorry to be nitpicky but this is the stuff that seperates the men from the boys.As long as you generously answer I’ll keep asking.
To begin using any tool takes some learning. It’s all in the feel - not too hard, not too soft of pressure. I hold the sander at the same angle going both directions. I have a template that I cut the paper out with to 8 1/4" and I use a Purflex pad that is 7 3/4" in diameter. If you cut the disk too large or small or use other than D weight paper, you can have problems. This pad company was run by a guy named Hermstad on Kauai, but he got leveled when that huge hurricane went through 15 or twenty years ago, so no more pads. I still have the original pad (plus a couple of backups). I have never used a better pad for sanding both fiberglas and foam. I think the pad is a medium, but too many years have gone by on that one.
Veritas, Lie-Nielson, Millers Falls block planes, a Skil planer, a Milwaukee sander with a Purflex sanding pad,- all great tools. I have my original wood handled Surform and two sheets of 220 sand screen that are at least 30 years old - great for touching up. The list goes on.
I know what you mean.I have three surforms a little one with the same dull blade I got twenty years ago and a wood handled one of the same age.I have been stashing the old wood handled ones…let me know and I can send you what you need.I have to think about the next question.It sure is nice to hear from someone thats been around longer than me and Jim Phillips.Most of the shapers from your era with the exeption of maybe Yater and Terry Martin are just doing it part time these days.Thanks again Rich.
Thanks Rich for joining in, enjoyed reading your posts. You’ve been one of my heroes since I surfed my first wave in 65. Stay on it!
Rich I had to go back and read your answer again before it dawned on me.You have the paper cut at a slightly larger radius than the pad.I went and played around with your sytem and BINGO…it worked.THe slight overhang lets the pad handle the rocker better without the edge of the pad digging in.Like I said…these little tricks guys like you take for granted are worth their weight in gold.About block planes…are you putting a slight radius on them?Also how about the corners of the Skil blades…are they square or do you round them a bit?Last question for today…did you teach Terry Martin or work with him at some point?Many thanks for helping us out.
Anyone who has sanded [glassed] surfboards with a 5,000 RPM sander should have no problem sanding foam with a 2,800 RPM sander that has some sort of speed controller. I’m glad I could help.
Most of my block planes – I have 9 - are very old and I use each on every board. The Veritas and Lie-Nielson are 1 1/2 and 5 years old respectively. I can’t remember softening the corners, but it’s simple, if it catches, soften it. The bottom should always be dead flat.
The Skil blades are carbon.
I think I met Terry Martin many years ago, and it was not much more than a hand shake and a few pleasantries. There are just a few that are at his level. He is one of the best.
Howzit Rich, I met Bill Hermstad when he moved here back in the 70’s He was good friends with Jack Ewing. I owned a couple of his pads and they were really good to work with. He actually made the pads at a boat construction shop in Kilauea. Unfortunately he got some skin cancer and never went to the doctor til it had spread to the point that nothing could be done to help him and he passed away about a month after. Aloha, Kokua
Me again Rich.This question is about TBands and other Custom Stringer Applications.I was recently at a large Longboard Retail Shop in Florida and while checking out the boards I noticed that a lot (the majority) of them had high stringers…(bumps) where the shaper did not get them flush after screening the blank.THe bumps were on the deck side,most of the bottoms were OK.I know that this is an ongoing problem but it seems as if it is becoming the norm nowadays.When I was taught to shape a bumpy deck stringer was a big no no.The thing is that 90percent of the people buying boards don’t even notice this flaw.Or is it a flaw?Is it acceptable nowadays?Do you have any tricks to share with us on this?Seems as if you never saw this in the 196o’s but could it have been because of the heavy double ten ounce glass job giving the sander more leeway to level things out?Thanks for you help. R.B.
If I might jump in… I notice a lot of shapers in my neck of the woods have sub-par woodworking tools, and not much background in using them. A few, of the likes of Rich, handle wood situations w/ ease, and have an array of traditional tools. It’s a beautiful thing when done correctly.
When you suggest 90% of the people that look at surfboards don’t notice this flaw I think you are being very generous. I would go as far to say that 95% of today’s SHAPERS can’t even FEEL the flaw or could care less. My fear it’s the latter more than the former.
My blades are extremely sharp. The back of the blade has been lapped and honed at the edge until it has a mirror finish. The factory ground flat is unacceptable. The front bevel also has a polished finish.
Clark foam has recently begun a helpful program of exchanging sharp blades for dull ones. These are much better than most found in shaping rooms, but no match for mine and Tim’s. Most of today’s shapers have no clue on how to sharpen a blade and should take advantage of this service.
I have 3 planes for each side, each adjusted to a different depth. There are three stages of sanding; 50 grit paper, medium screen, and fine screen. The deck planes have a different setting from the bottom planes as one side of the board has a convex rocker curve and the other side a concave curve. The variety of settings alleviates the hassle of constantly adjusting (possibly wrongly) the blades. Each cut is done with the tool held on a skew. Skewing lowers the effective cutting angle of the iron, provides additional slicing force, and reduces the resistance to the cut. The first cut is deep enough to take the stringer below the foam then sanded with the paper. This is where most of the lump removal takes place. The second cut has a finer adjustment then sanded with the medium screen. You remove most of the rest of the lumps here. The last cut is very fine, almost no cut at all and lightly sanded with fine screen. This is where the final smoothing and scratch removal occurs.
I have trained my left hand over the last 45 years to feel lumps that my right cannot feel. I have found the smoother the foam is sanded, the more you can feel.
BTW: Our boards in the 1960’s were the standard of the industry when it came to lack of lumps.
Nice to see you here Rich,
You have a wealth of information in you bag of tricks and the skill of a true master.
…let me say welcome and hope is all good for you and yours.
…Ray said the swap meet went well for you guys,and enjoyed talking w/ you.
…Tell Tim and Bert hello for me.Herb
Rich, I think your are a bit too generous in using the term shapers, on the HILL, I am the only one who has a chalk line in their tool box. A test cut came off the machine, it was for a new program, the stringer was very bowed and the
“shaper” was baffled on why the board was 3/8" wider on one side. I tried my best to explain the the board was mirror identical side to side, but he could not comprehend that the center line, no matter how crooked, was only the imaginary center. (he surforms the rails on every shape, no planer). Then to the other side is shaper to the stars, clueless that blanks off the machine have to be actually looked at before taking the sander to them and rather than create a clean outline at the start, he waits until it is fine sanded, then hunt for bumps? I have a bench grinder with an ultra fine wheel and a diamond hone in my room, if the blades aren’t singing while slicing through the stringer, then it’s not sharp enough. If you don’t have a full compliment of sharp tools, then you aren’t really a shaper, just another guy with a sander and a surform
The program that Rich is referring to is a fee free progam that Clark Foam is providing. We (FOAM E-Z) have a box of already correctly sharpened blades that we will gladly exchange with anyone who desires, at no charge. All you have to do is mail (with $5.00 return postage) or bring by the blade(s) and we will send you home with a new sharp one(s). The blades that are currently in the program are: Hitachi Planer blades, 3 1/2" Trim Plane, and the 6" low angle Block Plane. Power planer blades must be returned with the base plates attached, the replacements come indexed to the 2003 Model’s base plates with the sharp blade already attached to the back plate. Call or email us if you have any questions.
Good luck-
Harbs-
Should I lap the other side now?
Nigel
Great Thread…we have Rich Harbour and Jim Phillips giving up probably 90 years of combined experience.The bumpy deck thing really bugged me for some reason.The big surf shop I was in has a system of displaying the boards horizontally and you can see every hump and bump when the lights reflect on the deck.I was just browsing and had a “sales rep” on my ass.When I asked him about these flaws he just gave me dirty look and said It was on the deck so it doesn’t matter.He then told me that I ought to try shaping a board sometime.( actually one of my older boards was in the inventory but I just went and bought a Surfers Journal and Split)Anyway…the only boards in there that were right were the Yaters and Nolls…I am pretty sure the Nolls were shaped by Jim Phillips.I didn’t see any of Rich’s boards in there.As for the planes I too am amazed at the lack of knowledge most shapers have in regards to sharp tools.I have 5 block planes and at least 13 sanding blocks.Rich you mentioned having planes with concave and convex soles??I have seen the Clark Japanese Plane that is convex with a wood base.Are your planes wood?or have you discovered a way to alter a steel bodied plane?It’s funny how you mentioned that you had trained your left hand to feel for bumps.Jim Phillps tought me that years ago.When I was a production shaper I went to get a new drivers license.When it came time to get my fingerprints they flipped out because they were gone.Yep…I had worn my fingerprints off of one hand by running it up and down a zillion foam blanks.Hey Rich I remember Surfers Journal doing a big article on you.Do you remember the issue number?and…why in the heck has Jim Phillips been ignored by the media for all these years??
Over the last decade I have watched and photographed R. Yater shape numerous foam and wood boards, and he too uses his left hand to feel the rails even though he is right handed. For some reason he can feel the bumps and irregularities better.
Roger- thanks for asking the informative questions.
Cleanlines,
Well, we can all see that my education went no farther than high school. I should have explained that the bottoms of all of my planes are flat; the surfboards have a concave curve [deck] side and a convex curve [bottom] side. The blades are adjusted to compensate for these subtle differences in curvature. I will attempt to edit the former post.
I think most beginning shapers are so excited to put their ideas on how a surfboard should ride into a blank, they fail to learn the basics and Jim exemplifies this in his comments.
I don’t recall Surfer’s Journal ever doing an article on me.