What’s the reason you pulled out of Surftech.
Surftech surfboards are made in the giant Cobra International Co. LTD factory in Thailand, not Santa Cruz. If they were really proud of this, I would think we would see a giant advertising campaign proclaiming it. The surfboards come with a very small peel off label that says “Made in Thailand”. I believe that this label is supposed to have the words “Made in Thailand” equal in size with the words “Seal Beach” found in the Harbour label, which was not. Maybe some high priced lawyer could even argue that the “Made in Thailand” label should be 15”, the size of our triangle?
If one of our dealers decided to sell Harbour Surftechs, they would not build more racks to handle these molded boards. They would simply replace boards in the rack spaces that had been designated for Harbour hand made polyester boards with these off shore manufactured, molded boards. Now, everybody that works on Harbour custom surfboards is cut out of the wages that they would have made on the hand made boards that were replaced (with Surftechs). I was getting a royalty for every Surftech sold. That made me the only one benefiting from the deal and that is not the way I could run my business. The people that work on my surfboards are too important. I believe this arrangement is true with every shaper involved with Surftech, and each has his own conscience to deal with. I have heard the argument that these molded boards bring more people into the sport and I should be happy because they will eventually change over to a polyester board. I don’t buy it
Epoxy glass sandwiched PVC foam covering EPS foam surfboards are actually sailboard technology. Sailboards are much thicker than surfboards and are close to unbreakable using this construction. The thinner epoxy molded surfboards are more breakable than people expect.
This type of sandwich construction produces a board that can be several pounds lighter, and is much more rigid. The light weight is great when initiating a turn, which is quite agreeable to most entry level and novice surfers who have not yet developed proper turning mechanics. Most good surfers dislike the way the molded board’s rail fails to set with any authority on a turn, the lack it has of any sustained drive, and the overall instability - especially on the nose. I have talked to only a couple of advanced surfers who like the feel and I am sure that they are in no way on the Surftech payroll
Molded surfboards cannot provide new shaping innovations. The designs that I supplied in 2000 do not have the rocker and width changes that we implemented in 2001 and 2002. These all improved the wave catching, paddling, and stability on the hand made polyester boards, but the molded boards will remain 2000 creations forever.
I terminated my relation with Surftech in the summer of 2002. They make a fine product that I believe is more suitable for entry level and novice surfers. Choices of clear boards, cut volan overlaps, transparent laminations custom stringers and custom color designs are not available on molded surfboards. I wish them well.
KUDOS…whatever that means…ambrose…may the spirit live on through the hands of the craft…
rich …i agree with you there…the molded board has its limits …
my specialty is custom epoxy sandwich boards and without a doubt would say are best suited to the expert high performance surfer,not only coz of the materials being used ,but mainly the ability to customise,for each individuals needs …
that ability to customise will always keep board builders in touch with experienced surfers , regardless of the materials used…
i commend your ethics on why you dont surftech anymore…
im not sure if this has happened to you ,but ive seen this scenario many times here in oz ,
a company runs surftech,there out in the market place ,then when its damaged or broken ,the consumer comes to the guy with his label on the board ,because most guys who put there label on surftechs dont actually build epoxy boards ,they have limited ability to offer advice to there customers or deal with repairs coz they dont have that technology in house…
one of the biggest problems i had when selling boards overseas or interstate ,was being able to offer a level of after sales service,i think as time goes on and the technology becomes more familiar,that wont be as much of a problem ,
currently if you own a p/u you can go anywhere in the world and find a decent ding fix…at one stage whenever i got a phone call from a retailer who wanted to stock my boards ,my first prerequisite was they had to have someone who could handle epoxy repairs for them…sadly at the time 3 out of 4 couldnt locate anyone with the skills or the willingness to do it…
if you cant look after your customers then you dont deserve to have them…
its my personal opinion that epoxy boards are superior to conventional craft,but at the moment its more inconvenient to own an epoxy board ,mainly due to the existing industries unwillingness to service them…
im not trying to insinuate anything here rich…
these are just observations that accompany the recent rise of surftechs in the market place …just happened to get tacked onto your thread…
regards
BERT
Rich,
I always wanted to carry your boards in my shop, but you guys had all the work you could handle. Your daughter does a very good job for you and is very nice and easy to talk to. I respect your decision and from what I can tell you seem like a guy that gave it some serious thought.
I totally disagree with those that say this is superior tech. Those things ride like crap and very few people know how to repair them. They are different not superior.
My problem with the entire thing is it’s a money grubbing sales job that has been hyped on the public at the expense of American and Australian labor. The fact that they are made in a communist country has purposely been down played. The shapers who have signed on with P.T. Barnum Surftech and company have signed one of the biggest sucker contracts in the business. They get paid as the boards sell instead of on every label with their name on it when they are produced. They have to agree not to sign with a competitor of Surftech but there is no garantee or control given to the shapers of which shops their boards will be sold out of, or if they will one day end up in Walmart. I have to hand it to Randy for pulling that off. He would be laughed out of the boardroom of any other business man with a contract like that. Also How do these poor guys know they are getting all of the royalties and promptly?
These guys even admitted they could sell boards much cheaper than they do and you wait; thats coming as well. I don’t like Surftech because I don’t like what it’s doing to the industry by turning surfboards into a comodity instead of a hand crafted work of art. The fact that no two boards are the same is what I like about hand shaped boards. In the end Between surftech and Giant department store surf shops (if you want to call them surf shops) it’s going to bite the guys who have given us years of shapes. Who is going to train the next generation of shapers? The price will be driven so low very few will be able to pay the bills or buys blanks.
I realize the select few shapers will probably be unaffected, but they will not be around forever.
I am a capitalist, but not at the expense of American jobs and frankly I have never liked the greed factor or anything for a buck attitude that has taken over American business owners. I realize many glassers, shapers, sanders, etc. can be a pain to work with and don’t work regular hours etc. but they have created the sport that we love for better or worse, Not the retailers or guys producing popouts. I understand why many of the shapers decided to go with these companies, so they could retire and take a more relaxed approach one day, but I think they have sold out for something that can get cut off anytime surftech likes. I hope more of them get the balls to do what Rich has done. Wait until Quiksilver or one of the other hype clothing companies wants to buy Surftech, there will be surfboards in Indiana.
You stamp Made in Thailand under the glass of these boards and see how many superior popout products you sell.
I typed this really fast so excuse any typos or mispelled words.
solosurfer , i agree with your sentiments and thought your points were valid and realistic…
the only thing i would like to point out is ,
the superior tech as you call it , is indeed superior ,
my snap ratios are 1/10th of what they were when i was just building p/u boards…
and my second last shorty outlasted at least 20 conventional boards …i could keep rambling on with figures supporting epoxy eps sandwich contruction…
plus the performance doesnt compare to a polyester tank…
so maybe there doing something wrong , would a chinese cheap polyester board be as good as a local one???
many cheap imported copies of other products come into both our countries…
but all are recognised as cheap imports…a copy of the real thing…
it doesnt worry me what people think of surftech ,as long as they recognise that all epoxy boards arent the same…
i know alot of really poor quality poly p/u builders who slap em out for profit,using the cheapest materials available…that must mean all polyester boards are no good???ride bad and self destruct??? of coarse not…
so in summary , not all epoxy boards are the same, i would feel better if it wasnt branded as inferior just because some companies who use it ,seem to be treading on peoples toes…
regards
BERT
Rich you are the essence of what surfing ought to be…my hat is off to you.As far as Surftech goes it doesn’t bother me a bit because its a done deal and we can’t change it for better or worse,they do what they do period.About epoxy boards (and this is just my humble opinion)I don’t care how they are made, or how strong or weak they are…the bottom line is that they don’t ride very well,yep they are different but most experienced surfers do not like the feel and will not ride them.Myself and a few other backyard engineer-surfer-design theory geezers have determined the reason why they don’t make it.Here’s why…All (or the majority) of the weight is in the Skin…the cores are too light.Here is comparison.Take 16 ounce hammer that is steel throughout ,and clone it into a foam filled hammer with 16ounces of an alloy steel on just the outside and you will have piece of junk.You may be able to run a huge add blitz and sell a pile of em at Home Depot but the carpenters won’t look twice.This theory has been around for ages and widely discussed but the epoxy builders continue to use the same old super light house insulation type cores that have been around since guys like Greg pioneered the system.Forward thinking?I don’t think so.
Cleanlines, Well you’re entitled to your opinions, as we all are. I know several experienced surfers that ride epoxy surfboards. Would you like a list, or is it only QS or CT surfers that you’re implying?
Also, Harbour surfboards is testing epoxy glassed boards. Does that mean they won’t work as well as a “traditional” board?
I’m almost positive that surfers had the same arguement as you, when they went from solid wood to foam and glass.
AND, I’d like to see you surf a solid steel surfboard!
You missed my point.Epoxy is fine.I didn’t say that no one liked them.I said "most"surfers don’t like them.Actually epoxy boards using a Clark Foam core seem to be pretty well liked…My issue is more with weight distribution and the fact that momentum affects a lot of things.But like you said it’s just my opinion and we wen’t through this same discussion a year or so ago on Swaylocks.It was good thread…same arguments.I don’t recall mentioning a Steel Surfboard but what the hell…it might make for a nice straight to the bottom ride(cranking turns) but the eardrum issue could be quite “explosive”.Leash not recommended.
My wife and some friends were surfing down at Punta Mita and visiting with Rich’s #1 guy. He had a quiver of Harbour surftechs. They surfed his boards most of the trip. There are always two sides to every story… and this is nothing to downsize anyone’s opinion.
Rich------- It is interesting to hear your take on Surftech, as a company and technology. The boards I build (short or long) are poly, poly/epoxy or Eps/epoxy. I ride poly and always will. Never the less I Have made good money patching and repainting those indestructable epoxies here on Maui. Two of the people involved in Surftech were painting houses just a few short years ago. So more power to 'em. I guess my take is similar to yours. There appears to be a place in the grand scheme of things for these boards. I admire your loyalty to your employees. McDing
Bert,
It’s not epoxy I am against, it’s the way Surftech does business I don’t like and the fact they are selling out American jobs (Aussie too) and trying to say they are superiour to poly boards. The hand shaped stuff does not bother me, nor does someone who makes the sandwich stuff on their own. I personally don’t like the way many Epoxy boards ride hand shaped or otherwise, but Steve Forstall did make me a 10’ Epoxy that road like it was 8’6’'.
My second gripe is the people running it are all about the money. It’s a money grubbing project from day one and same goes for the chinese poly boards like Blues and Seven. In the car business they call it flooding the market. Thats when too much hype has been put on one product and it’s everywhere. Pretty soon it’s worth nothing on the second hand market. That will happen to surftech. I still say I can’t see a surfer in 2050 picking up a surftech from a garage sale and exclaiming, “What a Gem!”
Again: I am a capitalist, but at least be honest about the project instead of trying ot pass it off as some hardcore soulful new tech. that will replace the worn out old hand shaped surfboard. Just because a bunch of old shapers from the past have put their names on them does not make them the same as what many of those great shapers have produced or are still producing. They should be sold for what they are. Beginner boards or boards for the surfer who can’t get in the water that often. Also have you noticed a peculiar smell coming from the popouts when they paddle into the lineup. Kind of reminds me of that outkast song Roses. (ha ha)
Solosurfer, since when is Thailand a communist country? http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/th.html
regards,
Håvard
OK it’s not what we call communist. It’s a constitutional Monarchy. Saudi Arabia and other middle eastern countries are also what you would call constitutional monarchy. Also I think it’s a real stretch for some of these people that want to support companies like Surftech and then support liberal so called humanistic organizations like Surfrider or Greenpeace. Surftech can make the boards they make at the profit they make them at the expense of it’s own countries labor and on the backs of workers who only make $250.00 a month. I will bet the ones that make that are the managers. I bet the common worker makes that. I don’t care how prized a job is at surftech, if you lived in Somalia carrying dung might be considered a prize job.
You would not want to have the govt. of Thailand in America.
No jabs at you Haavard, thanks for allowing me on my soapbox again. Heh Heh.
yea , i could see the anti surftech sentiment in your words …i put that epoxy comment in ,mainly to defend the materials ,not the companies using it…
i also agree with you in principle about the threat to the surfboard industry…
but i think its to late to wind back the clock now…
the biggest problem is its a fragmented industry ,with all the players just taking it as it comes ,dog eat dog…
some industries a very controled , and the players in those industries all do well …
as most guys in the industry know ,there are many reasons why the board industry has gone down hill…
social change…
pressure from retailers for greater profits and reliability of delivery time…
cheap foreign imports …
raw material wholesalers selling to back yarders at the same price…
back yarders working for nothing just to gain experience…
enviromental officers and local councils pressuring business to be clean and green…
other industries having high standards , leaving all the brain dead morons available to the surfboard industry…
price wars in an over saturated market…
less larger manufacturers and more smaller ones …
sony playstation ,computer games and other distractions for grommets…
its in this climate that we find ourselves all trying to make a living the best we can…
there’s many different business stratagies that work and some are doing better than others…
one thing is for sure ,its alot harder to make money out of surfboards now than it was 20 years ago…
unless theres a unified approach by all the players ,then nothing will change ,if only for the worse…
in my opinion swaylocks is probably one of the best vehicles to initiate some sort of change for the better…
thats how i see it from my angle ,id be interested in how others see it and if they/you can elaborate on why the surfboard industry has gone downhill and some possible fix ups???
maybe a new thread could be started on the subject …
regards
BERT