i use to waist so much time on numbers and pondering rockers,the guys who make the blanks wouldn’t put in a rocker that doesn’t work. i try not to worry about numbers too much and shape the blank till it looks good without disturbing the flow too much. as long as your eye can determine what is good, takes a long time for that eye to learn what it needs to see though. i’m still on “L” plates.
Hope I don’t come off as too harsh, Condor, but boy you got rocker all wrong!!!
First point, your eye can’t measure with any accuracy over a curve. You might see and feel a lump or flat-spot, but you won’t know your entry rocker measurement just by eye.
Second point, the guys who build the blanks have no idea your skill level, height, weight, style, ocean conditions, wave size, wave period, board outline, fin placement. How could they possibly know the right rocker for you?
A real shaper designs his own rocker by his concept, and selects an established blank, or orders their personal rocker. Otherwise you might as well buy a stock board and save yourself the trouble.
Sorry if I’m too blunt, but I couldn’t let that one go buy and have anyone read your comment, and think that was a good idea.
good point everysurfer,
so when you go and watch someone who shapes for a living, they never seem to measure rocker as they know their blanks and how they perform when they shape them.
in shaping 101when JC said " you have to develop an eye for it" what did he mean?
when i first started i tried to follow exact rocker measurements only to thin out noses and tails so much the blanks became unshapable, if i had developed “an eye for it” i would have picked the right blank.
what about that guy riding a chunk of foam with no apparent designed foil, rails, rocker or fins and he is ripping.
if i wasn’t told by a professional shaper to stop being so caught up in numbers and follow the blank until it feels and looks good i’d have no hair from pulling it out in frustration.
i don’t know the shaping ability of the guys on this post but i was just passing on some information that helped me.
as i’m no pro and only shape boards for myself i have found out what blank and what technique to turn it into a functional surfboard for my weight ability etc etc…
until i develop more shaping skill to actually follow the numbers then what looks good usually goes well.
shaping a surfboard is a journey as long as you get to the destination it doesn’t matter how you arrive.
- Good shapers do measure rocker, and they do have rocker sticks. They either measure the rocker when they custom order the blank, or when they shape the board, but good shapers do measure .
- When lacking shapers are doing production, and all they care about is the cash at the end of the blank, and how many they can do in a day, they don't worry about rocker.
It means you need to develope your skills, and the “muscle memory” of the task, so you think less about what your hand is doing, and instead the design. A skilled musician doesn’t look at the strings anymore.
Exactly, you would have picked the right blank. Either that, or you would have ordered custom rocker. Read a blank manufacturer’s catalog sometime. They have library’s of shapers custom rockers. The real pros don’t just grab a blank and go.
Condor, you’re making my point. It sounds like you think design means nothing, and good surfers are content to ride “a chunk of foam with no apparent designed foil, rails, rocker or fins”. They aren’t, but instead work with their shapers to design the optimum board for specific conditions.
Maybe the pro who was teaching you either, 1) got tired of teaching you and just wanted to get you out of the way, or 2) wasn’t very good himself, or 3) you were being a pain in his ass. =-)
I’ve had lots of boards in the past, bought off the rack that didn’t work. Flat spots in the between the midpoint and fins was usually the problem. Just because the guy does it for a living doesn’t mean much. Lots of guys making production surfboards today aren’t any more skilled than a drywall sander.
I’m not wanting to rain on your parade by disagreeing with you. But for you and anyone who believes what you wrote to be good advice, I wanted to save them some frustration.
"if i wasn't told by a professional shaper to stop being so caught up in numbers and follow the blank until it feels and looks good i'd have no hair from pulling it out in frustration."
There's some truth to that.
Virtually any blank has a workable stock rocker. The manufacturers work with shapers to find a happy medium before they invest in a mold. There are reasons why so many blanks have somewhere around 5" nose and 2"-2 1/2" tail rocker.
There are also reasons why Us Blanks has 9 pages of rocker tweaks in their 'public' rocker catalog alone. http://www.usblanks.com/pdf/Public.Rocker.Catalog.January.2010.pdf
A methodical shaper will take accurate measurements, order custom rockers, and/or tweak existing rockers as needed for discerning riders looking to progress logically in their designs.
Rocker is but one of many variables but it is an important one. The closer you get to an ideal shape the more important it is to be able to hit your numbers (rocker and other) on subsequent designs.
There will always be those mysterious shapes that just work by accident but if you are working with a shaper to develop your ideal board, numbers will play a role.
Condor,
I'm a total newbie to the shaping thing so believe me I'm not standing on my box preaching to anyone. I've sat in different shapers shaping bays enough to see the different approaches to making a workable board. Either the grab the blank and tear into the thing approach and be completely finished in an hour and the meticulous adjustable rocker stick rail profile template perfectionist types.
One extreme is the mathametician approach and the other is the sculptor artist approach. I think you need to develop your own style and get out of it whats important to you.
I can tell you though for myself I try to put enough self expression and eye into what I'm making within the confines of the math. Outline, rocker numbers, thickness, foil, all have set numbers that set limits to the finished shape. Using the wrong blank just compounds the situation.
For me the "eye" is seeing if the rocker is wrong or right to begin with for what your trying to create and for seeing if what you've created is "right". Putting a rocker stick to the raw blank tells you where and how you should start. Putting the rocker stick to the shaped board tells you if you did what you thought you did along the way. Knowing your numbers for a given board, spot, person, etc. is your guide for getting started and for arriving at your destination.
So it really boils down to your own journey, like you said. GPS navigation or just blowing with the wind. I like a little of both.
I tell new shapers that nearly all blanks’ natural rockers are the culmination of thousands of hours of refinement by expert shapers who have been given expert feedback by highly skilled and experienced surfers. There’s not much you can do to improve on that… as a beginning shaper. If you buy the best blank you can to fit the board you’re after, some minor tweaking is all you need to do. Major adjustments in rocker should be reserved for more experienced shapers, because you’d better be making other design adjustments as well to work together with that “new and improved” rocker you’re creating.
The method I use is this… start at the apex and make a rocker measurement half way between there and the end of the board. So on a 6’0, assuming the apex is in the middle, you measure at 3’. My next measurement is half of that… at 18" from the end. Next is at 9". Next at 4.5 inches, and the last at 2 1/4". As the curve accelerates, and changes become more critical, the measurements get closer together.
Works for me…
when you don’t have a rocker stick
to measure your 11’-16’curve
you must resolve yourself to being
an artist /sculptor and keep your
production numbers really low.
the use of a sixteen foot rocker stick
is real impressive to the interns
in the overhead gallery at mount sinai
where the stone tablets are dropped off.
Some old kuk shaping a bitchin soul model to take
his aging wife for a six mile paddle on easter sunday
just so he can tell her she is an athlete before they take a nap
is exempt from measuring the rocker especially if the eps
was hand cut from a rocker profile eyeballed in masonite.
Real Shapers are not likely to pursue rocker as close
as the rocker stick unless they are making
a one off that is likely to become a blank plug.
measuring an plotting rocker is quite tedious.
What wins, goin’ surfin or shaping for long hours/
In the aging craft a holic character profile,
tedium is a desirable personality trait
Addiction to tedium and jigs can become a storage concern.
I.E.
I want a 16’ rocker stick but where in my crowded space will it hang?
the roof isn’t tall enough,the wall is cluttered with board templates
it takes a 1/2 day to get to the 16’ full templates
on the back wall.I had to build a back wall to accomodate
a hanger for the template (not a spin template)
and the back of that wall is for the profile library
currently over twenty. many of whichtemplates
may never be used again as they were
part of a design progression that could
be obsolete,but may now be
somebody’s secret rocker in the us catalogue.
the #1 consideration
for accurate measurement
that it can become a fixation
that is indeed exclusive
of establishing a rhythm
and flow to the shaping process.
iow when you can be assured that the rocker is
indeed a cool rocker you can
proceed to shape a clean
foiled flowed out board.
You can also do this
by self hypnosis planting the suggestion
that the guys that made this blank
must know something I don’t and just rip out
a perfect board for the millenium …
even when you do measure yourself dizzy
with concern there comes a point
where you not only have to believe
you have it right and clean up the curve
to be contiguous onto itself.
the final step in the process:
when you are done con yourself
and anyone who may be riding it
into staying within the performance parameters
of a given rocker
i.e. guns dont noseride
and short boards spin out
real good.
this is often achieved by an academy award performance
of the shaper faining omnisciece on the hand off.
the proof is in the putting the board in the water
and adapting your style of riding to the conspicious
limits of a finished board.
…ambrose…
in the genetic code of the west;
survive and reproduce,
there is no mention of measuring
the size and depth of reproductive
equipment. Unless you are paying a specialist.
Then you can look forward to lots and lots of measuring.
birds do it without a tape measure or a rocker stick.
http://www2.swaylocks.com/forums/stringerless-build-thread
Take a look at this. First couple of pages were on designing rocker
Ward Coffey is arguably as good as any shaper around. He won the Sacred Craft shape-off in Santa Cruz after doing a nice copy of a technically difficult shape. He apparently is one of the guys that uses numbers.
Thanks John -
IMHO, it’s essential for each surfer to know what rocker measurements work best for them with any given shape/length/bottom…far too many flounder when it comes to dialing in their quiver, jumping from shape to shape, shaper to shaper, never understanding what made a magic board…magic. A custom order boardaholic who keeps rocker measurements of all my rides (tip, 1’ back, 1’ from tail, tail), providing proven rocker numbers to a “new” shaper has almost always provided me with a decent to excellent new ride, and established the baseline for future orders based on feedback from that first shape…
and being a front foot surfer, also like the fin cluster opened up a bit, the single to double with a bit more forward V, and… LOL
Front footed surfer? does that mean you never turn? just lean forwards and go straight down the line all the time?
Front footed is where you lean into your turns more. Closer to snowboarding. You rely on your entry rocker to guide the board when on a rail. It is more of a carving rail turn, than a back footed surfer who lifts the nose to turn. Backfooted is more like a skateboarder doing an ollie.
well stated…front footers invariably like high line speed carves from deep outside… which requires a specific rocker, bottom and fin set-up…especially the rocker… 
Yea!!!
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front footers invariably like high line speed carves from deep outside...
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Yea!!!
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I'll Yea, Yea that with a Yehaa! thrown in!
Sorry I know this has gone a bit off topic, but I've found for my frontfootedness my entry numbers need to be spot on. 1 5/8" on my every day shortboard and not a 1/16" more. Less will work but only in slower flatter waves.
[quote="$1"]
[quote="$1"]
Front footed is where you lean into your turns more. Closer to snowboarding. You rely on your entry rocker to guide the board when on a rail. It is more of a carving rail turn, than a back footed surfer who lifts the nose to turn. Backfooted is more like a skateboarder doing an ollie.
[/quote]
well stated...front footers invariably like high line speed carves from deep outside... which requires a specific rocker, bottom and fin set-up....especially the rocker... :)
I have been following this thread and have learned , or discovered that I am a frontfooted surfer. ? is what entry rocker is best for me? My go to board is a Hobie M80 with speed dialers, it jams in most conditions. I have looked at the rocker on this board and it seems to have a very small flat spot in the mid section . then it accerates front and back. the board was shaped by Midget Smith (RIP). Is this the type of rocker for a front footed surfer?
My last two performance shortboards were 6’-7" and 7’-0". (I’m pretty big), both had 1 7/8" to 1 15/16" entry rocker, with 5 1/2" to 5 3/4" nose. They work really good on punchier waves. With those numbers, you get a gradual front rocker, no nose flip.
Thanks Bro , that's very close to my Hobie's rocker tangent . I have only shaped two boards and now i think I can better custom my next board to my style, I'm ready to start sanding!