Shape and construction feedback (1st post)

General Discussion
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Hi guys, this is my first post here although I’ve been lurking around for a few months. As a newcomer I have to say that you’re all a great bunch of guys and it’s so generous of you to share your wisdom with newbies like me.

Especially the seasoned professionals, your input is hugely appreciated!

A few words about me, I’m 30 years old and live in a country that despite its long coastline is not famous for its waves. Windsurfing used to be my main passion, complemented later by snowboarding,

and for the last 4-5 years, surfing (or at least trying to).

From my early windsurfing days I became interested in shapes and what makes them work one way or another and was always keen to sail various designs to understand the effects of different design characteristics.  

Because of my work I’m also familiar with a number of CAD software packages, so naturally I made my first “shaping” efforts on a virtual environment. Recently I stumbled upon Akushaper and Boardcad and started playing around

trying to come up with a realistic design. I also happen to have access to a CNC machine, so not long ago emerged the idea to make my own surfboard. I’ve worked with epoxy & fiberglass on minor sailboard repairs, but I also have

the assistance of a friend with far greater experience with epoxy work and vacuum bagging.

So for my first board I plan to do minimal handwork, maybe some minor adjustments and of course sanding. I’d like to try a semi-sandwich construction, where the top and bottom consist of layers of glass and pvc foam,

while the rails are just layers of glass on the eps core.

I’ll try to attach a section of the construction I have in mind, as well as the actual shape. I’d really appreciate your feedback on both, especially the shape. I’m quite worried about the rockerline, as I understand it can easily make

the difference between a good board and a total dog. It’s meant to be used in small windswell (up to head high) and ridden by me (68kgs, 1.66m, intermediate ability). My current board is of similar planshape, 6'0" x 20 1/4" x 2 3/8", around 32lt.

Thanks in advance!

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Ok, it looks like I didn’t manage to attach the image of the construction, I’ll give it another shot.

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Two things;

 

1 - You can put the pvc skins on if you want but you don’t need to.    2lb EPS +  a standard epoxy lamination will hold up just fine on its own.     Most of the boards that use the pvc skins use a lighter density foam that wouldn’t otherwise hold up well unless glassed really heavily.   2lb EPS is a lot more solid and doesn’t need as much external shell.    

 

2 - For the conditions you’re describing and considering the width of the front half of the board you could widen the tail block a little in order to take a little curve out of the rear half of the board.  The straighter rail line will add a bit more drive and the extra surface area will come on plane more quickly than the narrower tail.  The template you have will surf just fine the way it is, but weak windswell waves call for a little more surface area.   Adding more width in the tail will add some more volume.  If you want you can thin the board out by 1/16 or 1/8 to retain the same volume.  It’s a win-win for you.  

 

The rocker and thicknesses look fine the way they are.  I think that board will definitely surf.  

 

Here’s a current California design for small wave boards from a reputable local shaper - check out the Larmo Squash.  

http://www.larrymabilesurfboards.com/larmo/larmo_series.html

 

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So when are you actually going to shape and construct something?  When you do I'd be happy to give you some feedback.

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Board by Robot. That may be cool for the first one or two but the real joy is drawing your own template, cutting out the planshape and then making the foam come a live with all the curves. THAT"S shaping. It has to come from your head (or heart) and be done by hand, the whole process though. I just hope you know the function and reasons your board comes out as it does. It takes a lot more than computers to turn out a successful ride. If you start there, you owe it to yourself to not STOP there. This isn’t meant to discourage but the opposite. 

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For your first board, I’d keep it simpler and skip the PVC skins.  A lot of time effort and cost involved in a board that you will immediately want to improve upon.  Work out you shape and the ride before you worry about a durable model.

As for the shape and the windswell like waves you plan on riding.  I would relax the center portion of the rocker.  1 1/8" at 12" down and 4" nose is for a slightly steeper or maybe slightly larger wave.  I like the 4" nose, but you’ll keep up speed on flatter waves if the 1 1/8" was a little lower, maybe 7/8"  Don’t let the rocker have any flat spots.

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Thanks for taking a look and sharing your thoughs. Regarding the shape, it is meant to complement my current board (a custom from portugal) which works great in the conditions we get here, but sometimes feels that I could go smaller. Current board has a 14 3/4" tail, so I have already increased the tail area by going 15" wide. Also, the bottom shape is a slight (5mm) single concave in the middle which washes to flat in the tail. I understand that super wide tails require some sort of vee to go easily rail to rail, so I settled for 15".

Initially I drew a lower nose rocker, but last night spend some time checking and comparing profiles and changed it to 4". Maybe I should stick to the earlier version.

As for the construction, I realise that I could be giving myself a handfull, but what made me think about starting a board was seeing my favourite custom get battered in two days of beach break close outs. It kinda broke my heart to see something I paid for and waited a month + to arrive to get dinged so easily. And it wasn’t a light glassjob either, 6/4oz top and 6 bottom pu/pe. The materials and techniques for more robust surfboards are out there, so why not use them? Do you think 2lbs EPS plus PVC skins will make it too heavy?

To McDing: I should have the eps on my hands in a week or so. Glass, pvc sheets and resin are readily availiable. But as I’m using friends’ and colleagues’ resources it depends on how much free time they have. Until then, I’m trying my best to think of a shape that will at least be functional. Unless you mean when I’m actually going to shape something by hand, in which case I have no idea. But I really can’t wait to start this one and see what happens.

To Tblank: I can appreciate what you’re talking about. I spent a couple of years designing and making handmade jewellery. Melting the metal, cutting, filing, sanding, polishing. Learning different techniques. Every step of the process by hand. It’s very rewarding, and I’ m sure making surfboards is even better as you get to ride them as well, not just look or wear the finished product. However, as I have access to computers and cnc I don’t see why I shouldn’t start from there. They’re just tools too, just more expensive and sophisticated, but they can only make something as good (or as bad) as what you have in your mind.

 

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Howdy JWR

Welcome to sways, hope you are gonna love it!

From what you wrote above, it is my take that if you glass with pvc, your board is going to be too stiff and corky.

PLUS… it is a whole lot more work, and more difficult to build, why do it? For durability, look at below comments. Get acquainted with simple foam and epoxy first. Enough learning curve there. And… you can always add the pvc layers later. 2# eps is stiff enough, and you are sort of lightweight, so really no need, is what i say.

And dents can also be a good thing, for you can put your foot down easily in them. If you glass the board with triple 4 deck, and double 4 bottom, you get a very durable board. Enough weight and a strong deck for weak waves. 

As far as shape goes… i surf in the netherlands, weak waves only. What sb said above is good advice: straighten the tail line [wider tailblock at 0"] that gives more forward speed through turns. If you do so, create a small break in the outline somewhere around the leading edge of the front fin. That way you can also have a straight middle section, for making speed, SPEED is what you need!!

I see too much curve in the outline: Board will want to turn quickly, but not go forward enough. Again, personal taste. You never wrote if those waves you surf have occasional tube sections, or are texas waves?? dont know, but if they are weak, go for straighter outline.

As far as tail rocker goes… Add a bit more, to my taste it is too low. If you like to turn and progress your surfing more rocker is good. The optimal tail width of 15 inches can easily use more rocker to turn. 2inch or 2,25 should do. That is my experience after 5+ boards for my waves here.

i am 34 btw, and 75 kg, but surf same length and widths, going as low as 19,5 for such small boards.

Cheers

and post pictures, words get boring quickly…

 

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**Board by Robot. That may be cool for the first one or two but the real
joy is drawing your own template, cutting out the planshape and then
making the foam come a live with all the curves. THAT"S shaping.
It has to come from your head (or heart) and be done by hand, the whole
process though. I just hope you know the function and reasons your
board comes out as it does. It takes a lot more than computers to turn
out a successful ride. If you start there, you owe it to yourself to not
STOP there. This isn’t meant to discourage but the opposite. **

I couldn’t agree more!**
**

To design successfully the CAD programs are only tools. I use CAD daily
and build more boards in one day than most people do in a year. CAD will
not make you a instant designer or craftsman. If you want to have a
deeper understanding you will do yourself a disservice. Not to discourage
you as tblank commented in his post however this is the course of action
I would recommend:

  1. Make your first boards by hand and do the most manual labor possible (No Short Cuts) No CAD Programs or CNC Machine!

  2. Design your board on some 1/4" Graph paper and plot out all your values (Hard Numbers: Rocker, Profile Thickness, Bottom Contours, Rail Profiles at 12" nose center and 12" tail) Envision your design and plot it out in real numbers.

  3. Scale your design on to a Template. (Masonite or something flexible). Cut out and true up your Template.

  4. Make your Rocker Profile Guides for Hot wiring your blank unless you buy your blank pre-molded?

  5. Start your board buy laying out the template and pencil in the outline.

  6. Cut out your board using a hand saw ( you can use a pencil four fluted down-spiral bit on a router with a bushing guide optional)

  7. Get shaping 101 Video by JC for the rest.

I shaped a lot of boards by hand before going getting my machine. The Machine does not and can not make you a good shaper let alone a designer. Just a tool. WYSIWYG. You may as well just buy a board off the rack or have someone on Swaylocks build you one unless you want to truly learn Shaping Technology by building at least one in a fundamental manner. Once you go through this exercise then explore CAD.

Going straight to CAD is shortcut that is like using a calculator without knowing how to add or subtract using a pencil and piece of paper.

What do I know I own a CNC Machine and love CAD.

Know the basics first!

 

Kind regards,

Michael

 

 

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Amen S’Ding. Good analogy with the calculator. I see CAD programs and CNC machines as a means to execute production only.

 

ps. What happens when the power goes out…Pinochle?

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Justwannaride, I’m coming from the handmade side because for me, there is a REAL JOY in seeing this block of foam transform into a speed machine. Turning the rails and screening them is a metamorphosis of sorts (not to get too corny). This inert form suddenly becomes a dynamic shape. Watching a CNC cutter leaves me flat.

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DRAWKNIFE because a SKIL 100 is just as usless as a CNC Machine!

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  Alright man that's cool.  I'll be watching for your progress.  You are obviously more computer savy than I am;  So can we expect to see a few pictures as you go?  One thing about it;  You're not afraid to try difficult things out of the gate.  I like wide tails, especially on Quads.

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Excellent advice!

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Many thanks for the replies. I’ll stick with my plan for now, but don’t think that I haven’t taken every piece of advice into consideration. I have made some minor adjustments to the rocker and planshape and I’m having second thoughts about the pvc skins if you insist they’re not really needed. PVC is expensive and I could do without the extra cost right now.

Although it is shown in the section image, I forgot to mention that the eps will be stringerless, do you still think that it will still hold up with 3 layers of 4oz top & bottom? The lack of stringer is another reason I added the skins.

Of course I promise to update with pictures as I go…

 

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JWR,

You can do without the PVC

How thick is the board going to be? The thicker the more resistant to breakage. Shorter boards are much less prone to breakage anyways…

Did you check out Coilsurf.com? no stringers. 

Use 3*4oz on the deck [and maybe on bottom] and you are settled for you board. 

It will be lightweight, quickly done [with computer even faster] and will surf great.

Using Fusion by FCS with their installkit, will also help make things easier.

Or do you have other plans about fin systems?

I feel like saying that it does not matter how you make a surfboard. God could not care less!

The surfing is what it is all about for me personally. Not how i get there, by hand or computer.

ENjoy the ride!

Wouter

 

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Not insults , just feedback

30 years old ,68kg.  Surfboard 5' 7 5/8" x 19 3/4" x 2 3/8".

Great board for a teenager. 2 3/8" thick?

You must be in super great condition or you surf a spot with no other surfers around. You're not getting any younger.......

........sooner or later you're going to have to get your hands dirty....make it a little bit thicker and little bit longer....

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Thanks Wouter! Of course I checked the Coils, their high fiber to resin ratio is a very interesting idea, it’s one of the reasons I’m thinking to use the vacuum bag.

I plan to use fcs fusions indeed as I can buy them locally (well, almost) and I already have some fins. The fore-aft adjustability is also welcome. It’s probably too soon to be asking this, but I see they offer two cant angles for the sidefin boxes, 5 and 9 degrees. Given that the bottom will have a very slight single concave around the front fins, which cant angle will be more appropriate?

I admit I haven’t done my fin position/cant/toe-in homework yet as it’s the last part of the process. Was thinking to measure my current board’s positions and adjust for the 1/4" wider tail.

 

Hi Stingray, thanks for your input. I’ve ridden my friend’s 5’8" x 19 1/4" x 2 3/8" 28lt board with no problems, so I should be ok unless the build comes out too heavy. Also this will be my smaller board, the one I have now is 6’0" x 20 1/4" x 2 3/8" and I feel I could easily go smaller. 68kg is 150lbs, so kind of lightweight I believe, and crowds are not yet a problem where I live. Fitness is ok too.

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JWR

you do your homework real well ! 

If you fill out where you live? you live somewhere around Europe? usa should all be asleep now… right? or is it later where you are

mike daniel would say [as he told me for such a board] to put the fins at 3.5" + 11" off tail

Al Merrick style fins, G-AM, but the K2.1 should do well too, i will try those next.

set them at 1-1/8" off rail apex

Cant : the more the easier to turn the board but loose some drive. depending on how deep the concave is, you can go with either one i think. 

if you want this board to perform, use 9 degrees with more convcave, if you want to speed down the line more, use 5 with less concave.

very curious how this will turn out, as you seem well prepared!

take care

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Ok, this took longer than expected (mainly because I’m broke) but I finally have a few pieces of eps in my hands. The good news is that I found a company that produces eps locally (sort of) and you can send them *.dxf (autocad) files and have them wire cut. Even better it cost me next to nothing because I know a guy who knows a guy etc…

The board I’m going to make will actually be cut from a solid block of foam, with only the deck rocker already there. But I sent them some rocker profiles and outlines so they hotwired me some “blanks” as well. These are for a friend who is gonna have a go at handshaping, he’s also been spending a lot of time here gathering precious information.

So it’s time to order the rest of the materials and get started as soon as possible (probably after the holidays though).

And… since I have more than one blank I’m gonna try to make something by hand as well! I can’t wait!

 

Merry Christmas!

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