Bill, would you please comment about the role of concaves? I do them when requested but always very slight. I favor “flat is fast” mostly, knowing that a flat bottom takes a specific rail shape to give the needed drive/projection.
Many thx
Thanks.
I appreciate the input, past and present.
7’0" would probably be around 6" nose, 2 3/4" Tail 8’6" would probably be around 6 3/4" Nose, Tail 3 1/4". The reason I say probably is because I make handmade custom boards. I don’t make “Models” via machines that have set measurements, repeated endlessly. I don’t have any problem with this. It just isn’t what I do. If I had a machine and needed to keep the monster fed, then I would likely have Models with catchy names that sound cool and make people feel like they are getting something more special and unique then they really are.
That said, most every board I make is part of an ongoing evolution of where I am at, at the time. Where the surf scene is at. Where the customer is at, etc. And of course, each rocker would vary depending on other components of the boards design. For example, a wider tail might require or could handle more tail rocker. And Concaves or Vee would also alter the rocker. The variables are endless. Yet most what there to be simple formulas and standardized meaurements that will make a “Magic” board.
I think there is a simple reason for this that goes along with your comments about “older” shapers. To use a popular example… Imagine one is taking up target shooting as a sport or pastime. If they were to talk to older expert shooters, they would find a high degree of calm confidence and asurity in their performance skills. This is because they know the variables and can adjust for them on the fly to hit their targets.
But a new shooter with no experience has to initially shoot blindly at the target to determine how well his rifle is sighted in. Lets say the round hits far off to the right. He then has to either adjust the sights, if he even knows how, or adjust his aim to hit farther to the left to compensate for the bad sights. When the next shot hits too far to the left he has over compensated. So he adjusts back to the right again but over shoots to the right also. So he swings back again to the left and overshoots to the left again, each with less error with each shot. As you can see, what he really begins to wish for is a perfectly sighted rifle from the start! If he were in a combat situation where his life or the life of others depended on it, there wouldn’t be time to be making these mistakes. And we haven’t even begun to adjust vertically or compensate for the wind that has begun to blow in the middle of all this adjusting.
This is exactly what happens in surfboard making. Being a Shaper, like being a Sniper, has been romanticized by the media. (I bet Sniper Rifle sales are off the charts lately.) Everyone wants to be one. But very few will ever have the time to properly sight in their rifle let alone the natural skills needed to use it accurately in the midst of all the variables. If they don’t, they will be shooting blind and simply guessing or copying others to hit the bullseye. It takes hundreds if not thousands of shapes and waves ridden on them get sighted in and to know how to hit the bullseye. It is an extremely illusive quest in which there are very few absolutes.
Hi Bill,
Deck concaves: Any thoughts on flat decks (which seem to be gaining popularity these days) vs. traditional and domed decks, regarding flex, responsiveness, release of water coming over the deck, etc.?
Thanks for spending time on here. We’re lucky to have you guys answering questions.
Bill - do you have any stories of favorite boards - maybe one that you had a memorable journey with or maybe one that was very special that you made for someone else?
Thanks for sharing!
Richard
Aloha Greg
Remember in Loehr’s Hot Seat Posts he laid out the history of contemporary concave boards? Well a small but very important extension of that history wound up here in my shop when Greg Weber came to the North Shore with a bunch of Hyper Rockered Austrailian Blanks to work through the emerging design with his team riders etc. A couple of the blanks are still sitting here in the racks.
Concaves are very useful tools in a designer tool box. Though of all the bottom types they are possibily the most unforgiving if executed poorly. Generally the more energy shedding a design, the less sensitive. The more energy absorbing, the more fussy and sensitive.
Mr Barnfield,
Thanks! I always like to know what experienced shapers like to ride, since you guys could make any board, so your choice in board has a lot of weight.
And once again, thank you much for your time.
Bill,
in your quest to make better boards what percent is the fin/fins equation and why ?some of your favorites fins for single 3,4, fin boards,3 known favorite shapers and why? 3 unknown shapers and why? Raining all day, always enjoyed your boards Aloha…
Aloha Swaylockers. Sorry I haven’t been fully active or indepth on this thread. I am working on a few speciality projects that have immovable deadlines that I have to meet. Things should loosen up in a couple of days. I will post some pictures of one of the projects that you guys might like to see.
This is a remake of Shaun Tomson’s 7’7" Gun from 1987. It will be auctioned off for the Boys and Girls Club of Santa Barbara in a few days.
Glassing Shaun’s board today
I don’t want to double dip, but please tell us more about the board:)
For this board what sort of interplay do you have between bottom, rails, and volume distribution, that helps guys get into such a quick steep wave?
What was going through your head when you originally designed it? and if you could go back in time and make the same board for Shaun Tomson, what would you change ?
Sorry for asking more questions, but always wanted to ask you questions about the other pipeline gun you have hanging in your shop.
Thanks,
Jason
Aloha Ghostshaper.
Concave Decks have been around for decades and have never really caught on. Hard to say why really. But surfboards are very FASHIONABLE things. Few like to admit it but that’s a well demonstrated fact.
FUNCTION is hugely important but depending on an areas waves and riders the actual neccessity of FUNCTION increases or decreases in direct proportion to the quality of the waves and the abilities of the riders surfing them. FASHION, is not directly relative to the quality of the waves or riders. It can exist without them or if necessary draw power from them.
We would all hope that what is fashionable in surfboards is a direct result of what is clearly determined to be most FUNCTIONABLE in real use, but that is too often not the case. Pure FUNCTION struggles to influence FASHION. FASHION by its very nature is transient and its trends or fads come and go for all kinds of reasons that are not FUNCTION based.
FASHION is geatly influenecd by the SURF SCENE and the SURF SCENE is influenced by the varried and often odd mix of the players in each regional SURF SCENE. And maybe more importantly, FASHION is the real reason the players are even in the scene.
The SURF SCENE includes all the best surfers in the world but it also includes all the rest of the surfers in the scene, including the very worst. Since there are very few great surfres compared to the masses of average mediocre surfers, it is easy to see that the neccessity of FUNCTION can safely be placed low on the “importance” scale for the vast majority of surfers. But FASHION cannot be. If one doens’t make sure their engagement with their particular surfing tribe isn’t FASHIONABLY appropriate, they won’t be allowed to be one of the cool guys in the tribe. And that will be much more unacceptable then having a board that is lacking some FUCTIONAL characteristics.
The same applies to SHAPERS and surfboard builders in general. Therefore, what is made or considered desireable or cool, often has little to do with FUNCTION but has everthing to do with FASHION.
That said, do concave decks FUNCTION? Simply put… yes. Is their FUNCTION better then other kinds of decks? Apparenlty not or not enough so to overcome the current influence of FASHION. Therein lies the big problem. I have seen well known surfers and shapers argue for hours about the benefits of certain tail designs. While none of them even know how much rocker is in the board or even how to measure it, if they wanted to find it out.
If they did, they would quickly realize the futility of their discussion because one of the boards has vastly different rocker then the other! And any presumptions of performance based on the shape of the tail is easly overshadowed by the huge difference in rockers.
So what’s really going on here. It is simply fellowship in the tribe and finding common ground and communication on a shared interest. This is hugely important to human beings and relationaly speaking, profound. But what they are really discussing is the FASHION of tail designs and all their supposed speculations regarding FUNCTION are really just a sort of “Voguing” to use a popular early 90’s term. Let be clear here, this is TOTALLY OK. But lets also not mistake this for any kind of serious design experimentation or functionally creative revolution.
So… back to your question… “flex, responsiveness, release of water coming over the deck, etc.” can we really do anything more then just speculate or argue about these factors unless we make some exact boards, one with a concave deck and one without? Lets do this and then lets talk. I haven’t done this. Maybe someone has but I doubt it. It is always more fun to talk about it and pretend to know, then to actually do it and know for sure.
FASHION by it very nature has to be FASHIONABLE and anything that has been around too long begins to be seen as unFASHIONALBE and needing a change. So, dome decks drift to flatter decks and flatter decks drift to concave decks all in the quest to be new, different and FASHIONALBE. How much of this is driven by FUNCTION is near impossible to tell. But once the media picks up on the trend and blows it up, we all better be ready to make concave decks, regardless whether or not we have a clue about them! Think of the hundreds of pages of magazine articles and ads on past designs that never worked out and no longer exist. Great fun reading, lots of money for the magazines, writers, photographers and printers. Lots of fellowship and bonding in the tribe. In the end this is probably more important then design advancement anyway.
So Sorry. I missed your question
Aloha Privateer. So sorry but I seemed to have missed your question and passed you right by. Your question is great and I want to answer properly as you have brought up a subject that is going to require posting some photos etc. Hang in there in a few days I will be caught up on my projects and will be able to devote the proper time to your question.
Let me add to Greg Tate’s introductory comments. It is OK with me if you guys want to comment on my comments or ask more questions. Just try to avoid everyone throwing in their 2 cents when it comes to answering the questions. I don’t mind a bit of discussion.
Aloha Bill,
I’m glad to see you back on the pages of Swaylock’s. I hope you are doing well after your health scare, of a few years ago. Those kind of thing are a real wake up call, eh?
Aloha Nui,
Bill
here’s one
Aloha Bill!
Thank you for taking the time to carefully answer each of our queries.
I can relate to the marksman statement of “boring”, once you are dialed in.
Always kept it fun by messin’ with the rounds.
And in a lot of ways this is relative in shaping (to me).
I would like to humbly ask your take on rail shapes.
In particular at the business end in high energy waves.
Bill, I will understand if you don’t care to comment, as this is a touchy subject.
I’ve been going softer in more energy.
Don’t feel that I’m wasting my time, just running out of it.
Thanks in advance for any explanation and results shared.
Sanding & Glossing Shaun’s board today. I will be back! In the mean time check this out.
Thank You Bill. All is good here. Hoping the same for you.
Hi Bill-
Thanks again for being in the hot seat. Looking forward to the discussion of fins based on Privateer’s questions.
-J
Me too!