POST #39
Thanks anyway!
Shapahodad bomb.
2 BAD
So long, and thanks for all the fish…
Double dipping is ok!
The Shaun Tomson board is 7’7" x 19" and is pretty typical for 1987. Around 3" thick.
Fuller rails then todays boards. Fairly hard down rails. Very hard in tail. Small Squash tail
Medium Vee fading out slowly as it gets to nose and behind fins. Concave Vee Panels in back 1/3rd
Rocker 6 1/8" nose. 2 3/8" tail.
This was Pre the contemporary Hyper Rockerd Concave bottoms that began to emerge in The early 90s.
- Bill-- in a recent issue of Surfing, Rusty cited you as his biggest influence. Care to elaborate on your history with Rusty? Did you work together. In what ways do you think you may have been an influence on his shaping?? Are you coming over for the Del Mar show honoring Rusty in May?? Lowel
3:00 AM.
Shaun’s board is glossed on deck side and curing.
2 other boards are Hotcoated and curing.
I am heading home for some sleep!
Aloha Bill
I have long enjoyed your various posts on Swaylocks about your measurement driven design methodology.
I would like to hear your your thoughts in general about scaling boards boards upwards or downwards lengthwise.
For example, I plan to scale down my one of my favorite guns from 9’2" to 8’6".
Existing dimensions are: 9’2" long x 20 3/4" wide x 11 1/2" nose width x 11/2" tail width x 3.5" thick, quad fins
Proposed dimensions are: 8’6" long x 3 3/8" thick (hopefully), width undecided, multi system fins (quad/tri).
I would like to keep about 3 3/8" of thickness to conserve as much volume as possible.
My existing 9’2" is right on the bulls-eye, to use your sniper metaphor. It’s my go-to board for double overhead beach break and sand bottom points.
I also use it in head-high waves if it’s crowded, otherwise I’m on a shortboard.
Conditions are often raw, choppy, sideshore windy, hollow, with strong currents and lots of paddling. Occasionally lined-up and firing.
I am 5’10 tall x 150 pounds. Average ability. 64 years old. Surf an average 10 to 12 times per month. Size 8 1/2 feet.
My quiver consists of variations of round pins from 6"6" to 10’0"
My objective with the 8’6" is to use it for the same conditions as the 9’2" - going shorter to increase manueverability, plus fit the curve of the wave better.
Predictable feel and “no surprises” when I spin around and take off are key for me.
What dimensions would you recommend for overall width, nose width and tail width and thickness for the new 8’6"?
I assume my friend and local gunsmith, using his CAD/CAM setup, can manage the proportions of the complex curves (template, rocker, rails, foil, etc.) as length is reduced.
Some dimensions for overall width, nose width, tail width and thickness would be a big help in keeping the design process on track.
Any suggestions and/or dimensions you can offer would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Laky
Typo correction regarding tail width
Existing dimensions are: 9’2" long x 20 3/4" wide x 11 1/2" nose width x 11/2" tail width x 3.5" thick, quad fins
Should read
Existing dimensions are: 9’2" long x 20 3/4" wide x 11 1/2" nose width x 11 1/2" tail width x 3.5" thick, quad fins
Great thread…
One more hot seat rule: If you feel absolutely complelled to ask the guest about a specific shape you are working on, please keep it to ONE QUESTION.
Thank you!
Good rule.
Or maybe start a new thread. It would be best to focus your Hotseat questions on topics that many people prople can benefit from.
Hi Bill,
A question on bottom rocker. How do you set up the various curves? What I mean is the nose rocker usually curves the most. Then you have the middle and tail rockers. Which of the two has a greater curve? For both short boards and step ups. And then what percentage of the board has entry or nose rocker, what percentage has the body, and what percentage is the tail rocker. And if I’m not going on too much, could you give your thoughts on rail compared to stringer rockers.
Thanks in advance!
Sorry to everyone for being so out of touch the last few days. Shaun’s board is now done and will packed and taken to the airport in a few minutes. When I get back in a few hours, I will be free to spend more time here and will answer questions more promptly and with better focus and time.
Hi Bill,
First of all, thanks for doing this.
- You’ve listed developing, and then watching others use your Measurement Control System as one of your greatest board-building accomplishments. But after a bit of Googling I can’t turn up a full description of it. I’ve seen some descriptions (from others) of your rocker measurement at the stringer technique, but that’s about it.
I’d really appreciate it if you could give us the full run-down on MCS as I believe it’s still very relevant to backyarders these days; even though using software to get a pre-shape turned out on a machine has become fairly accessible nowadays for the DIY’er, if we come across a board we’d like to measure up, getting a board scanned or traced on a machine with a scribing tool is not as easy. Let alone trying to do it in the carpark after a surf and in the time it takes for the board’s owner to go grab a coffee, drink it and come back again.
Mind you, if you’ve already described your system in full on Swaylocks and if anyone has a link to the thread it happened in, please post it so poor old Bill doesn’t have to retype everything again.
- You’ve managed to get out and play a lot over the course of your life (e.g. Surfing, MTB’ing, sailing, etc, etc), do you have any tips for others on how to accomplish this and still manage to keep the wife & kids happy(ish).
I asked Greg Loehr essentially the same thing while he was in the Hot Seat; his response was that getting out for a quick 30-minute surf most days (regardless of conditions) after work kept the surf-withdrawal symptoms in check.
But that just covers getting the minimum time in the water to deal with surf-withdrawal; most people want to get out and do as much as they possibly can (as it appears you’ve managed to do) and in as many different ways/sports/recreational past-times as they can. What tips have you got on how to accomplish that?
And y’know what, it’d be interesting to hear from Wendy on this topic too (a user-name like “Boss-o-Barnfield” might be the most accurate 
) in order to hear their perspective on the matter, what they’re willing to accept, or not, and most importantly, why. Sometimes the answers to that are surprising and allow you to figure out a way to accomplish what you were hoping to do and still manage to keep both parties happy (the key is you’ve got to ask in the first place).
On the other hand though, it might also be true that in some cases it would be better if the missus remained none-the-wiser as to some of the techniques you’ve figured out for playing with your various toys as much as possible; that info probably belongs in PM’s to those interested, or perhaps posted in a “Secret Men’s Business” forum (assuming Swaylocks has such a thing). I’ll leave it up to you.
Cheers!
I am pretty caught up now on deadline issues and will begin to work down the list of questions. It probably won’t be in chronological order as some will take pulling together info and images. Others I can answer right off the top of my head. So if it looks like I have overlooked a question or two. Hang in there, I will get to them.
[quote="$1"]
- Bill-- in a recent issue of Surfing, Rusty cited you as his biggest influence. Care to elaborate on your history with Rusty? Did you work together. In what ways do you think you may have been an influence on his shaping?? Are you coming over for the Del Mar show honoring Rusty in May?? Lowel
[/quote]
Aloha McDing
This would probably be much better answered by Rusty himself and maybe I will bug him to do so. Hopefully when he reads this our versions won’t very much.
I think it was around 1978 or 79 that I first met Rusty in San Diego. I had many team riders from the area and they were bugging me to come over and do some shaping and hang out. Among them were Debbie Beacham, Chris O’roarke, Sandy Ordille, Timmy Senneff, Doddie Hackamack, and others that I am probably forgetting. Debbie arranged with Rusty, who I had never met, for me to be able to use his shaping room. Debbie put the whole thing together and let me stay at her and Lewis’s house in La Jolla. Thank you Debbie!
Rusty was actively shaping then for Canyon I think so he graciously gave me a lot of time in his workspace. I had rented a sporty red Mustang and headed out to meet him at his shaping room to see how suitable it was and how this was all going to work out. Rusty’s room was actually one of many storage lockers in a large complex out in eastern San Diego. I think it was about 25 feet long and about 12 foot wide or more. Rusty is a huge guy compared to me, at only 5’6", so his room was all set up for his size which I think is over 6’.
His shaping racks were sooooo tall…! And the space was so huge. My rooms are usually 8’ wide by 15’ long. Very compact, tightly organized effecient and super clean.
WARNING!!! S ome of this is going to sound like I am putting Rusty down, but that isn’t it at all. There is a punch line to this story and if I don’t tell you the bad stuff, the good stuff at the end of the story won’t have much meaning.
So I meet up with Rusty and checked out his workspace…
And Oh My…!!! it is a mess! Stuff strewn everywhere and covered in foam dust to the point that the walls which were painted black, and only on the lower half, didn’t even look dark. Rusty had a lot of stuff in there. The first 10 feet or so was kind of a storage area that was littered with all kinds of objects. Old chairs, airconditioners, blanks strewn around, I think a small compressor and a ton of stuff that I don’t remember exaclty but it was all clogging up this storage/entrance area in one way or another.
The shaping space was more sad, it was full of old sandpaper. I mean tons of old sandpaper! (hopefully Rusty is laughing now) There was what seemed like every old sheet of sandpaper that Rusty had ever used in his life. Plus there were also all kinds of smaller pieces cut into various odd shapes. All this stuff was laying on top of the shelves over each of the side lights, along with foam dust and all kinds of other miscelanious hand tools. Plus there was stuff in all the corners and along the floor, including templates etc. My mental imprint of the space was like… Oh My, how do you get anything done in here and get it done precisely! The space was depressing and not conducive to precision work and it was reflective of a broken artist. One who had lost there fire and who’s creative compass couldnt find its focus.
The Shaping Racks were tall and had huge truck axle hubs or something for the bases and were not adjustable. They easily snagged the planers power cord. They were way to tall for me, so I think we laid down some 8" hollow tile blocks and covered them with plywood so that I coud walk around the racks as though I was as tall as Rusty! I did some minor organizing and clean up so that I could get to work and Rusty tollarated my OCD and leaning on him to throw away some of the stuff and get better organized. He said that he always saved his old sandpaper and it was a habit from days not that long past were one couldn’t afford to waste it or something like that. The odd shaped smaller pieces were for shaping swallow tails and such. I could see this was going to be a challenge and while I wasn’t there to teach anyone to shape or how to set up a good workspace, I didn’t mind doing so in payback for the loan of the space. Still I have found that to be risky, as most people don’t like to be told that they need to improve, and I often piss people off cause I can be too outspoken and direct. I don’t tollerate BS very well, as I am geared to produce and hit high standards in all that I do and simply don’t have time for things or people that impede that.
But surprisingly, in this case, Rusty was a very receptive sponge and didn’t seem to balk at my requests or intentions to help. Over the next few days of hanging out together and shaping I encouraged him in all kinds of motivational ways and he was a great listener. We covered all kinds of techniques, design functions, workspace conditions and general attitudes and actions that lead to success. It was all good.
Like many in the industry Rusty had hit a level point were his best efforts weren’t delivering him the kind or rewards his hard work and devotion deserved. I have seen this a zillion time in the surf industry and elsewhere. It is more set up to break ones heart then provide real success, and often does. We talked tons about the surf scene and how it worked and how to beat it and keep it from defeating you. And rather empowering you to excell beyond your contemporaries and even your own expectations. Of course, at this early point not much was going to be coming of it other then a lot of conversations.
We traded off shaping days so we both could get stuff done and then one day he told me he had a big order to get done and needed the room for a few days in a row. That was no problem for me as I was just cruising and having fun hanging out with Debbie and company!
A few day’s later Rusty called me up ALL EXCITED and ANIMATED! He said “you gotta get out here right now, I have to show you something!” He was really emotional, but wouldn’t tell me why, he just kept saying “get out here now”! So I drove out and met him there at the roll up door to his storage locker/shaping room. As he got ready to roll up the door, he said “step back”. I thought maybe he had caught a mountain lion or Puma in there or something!!! So he grabs the handle of the door and rolls it up quickly to expose the cluttered storage area and sea of crap that was all strewn around… EXCEPT… that was not what I was seeing! The whole space was immaculately clean! The entrance/storage space now had wall racks on both sides where all the blanks were carefully arranged and the whole floor was covered with dark blue indoor outdoor carpet. The walls were all painted a beautiful dark blue color and all the scraps of sandpaper and sheets were gone. Nothing was in the room that didn’t have a space set up for it and there was nothing there that wasn’t necessary. It was simply beautiful…!!! I stood there with my mouth wide open.
In one blazing blue instant… I knew Rusty had been listening and that he “GOT IT”. He was like a new man! Of course the workspace improvements were a reflection of a deep personal change inside. I had shown him my MCS (Measurement Controlled Shaping) system and taught him that using it and tracking the measurements and the riders feedback, including his own, (he surfs well) would be able to in 18 months or so provide a deep enough data base that would begin to talk back to him and instruct him in exactly what to do to get any kind of performance he needed from any board.
Rusty was a very capable craftsman and dilligent worker with good artistic sense. But he was discouraged as he didnt have a system or even know such a thing existed, that would allow him to know exactly what he was making and exactly why he was making it that way.
I can’t understate this. It is increadibly powerfull. When you know what to do, have the hand and eye skills to achieve it precisely, shaping gets super exciting! The alternative is just guessing and copying. That is boring and hugely depressing to know that you really don’t know what you need to and have to just guess. And it is deeply humiliating that you have to copy others to make things that will only marginally work. And even more so, that you don’t know why it works or doesn’t work, and others seemingly do. (but propably don’t but play a good game of pretending they do)
Rusty embraced all this and he took off like a rocket! That next season he came and worked for me as my ghost shaper in Hawaii making Twin Fins. He did fine but his boards which were supposed to be copies of mine didn’t look exactly the same. My Japanese agent and dealers noticed right away. I DIDN’T sign the boards as though mine as I am not a fan of that kind of deception. And neither did Rusty sign them. This was that 18 month training period I mentioned where the hand and eye begins to get comfortable replicating things precisely because you are now shaping to precise numbers with every board, and you must hit them to achieve success. Therefore, your hands and eyes must be trained to rise to the challenge. Any extraneous techniques, tools, pieces of sandpaper or useless habits have to be done away with so that the mind and body can focus clearly on a very a narrow goal for each board, without any distractions.
Shortly after this, when I knew Rusty was solidly on track to achieve success, I sent Shaun Tomson to him to begin getting boards. I told Shaun that Rusty knew the system and would have him dialed in within a few boards and to give him a chance.
And the rest is…as they says, HISTORY…!
Aloha everysurfer
Good question… hard to answer. The reason is, is that over the years, I have come to learn that I often see things quite differently then other people and I form ways of doing things differenlty because of it. That said, I often get questions that are totally logical to ask but are phrased in ways that are hard for me to answer. Usually it is because the questions contain deep attachments to certain ways of thinking and perceiving things that are very familiar to the asker.
I try to always see things different and to frame them up in my mind in ways that are designed to break up habits, beliefs and presumptions. Since I am always beating myself up in these ways, it is often hard for me to reach in and express myself on a subject in a way that will be comfortable for the asker to hear.
I don’t know how others view rockers. But I can tell by the way you have phrased your question, that you have a way of viewing rockers and you feel like maybe a majority of others do likewise.
I understand this view and don’t disagree with it. But personally, I don’t really break down rockers in that way. I don’t design them so distinctively in 3 parts. I look at the whole curve and the total rocker amounts. All waves and riders require or desire certain kinds of rockers. Matching them up correctly is the challenge.
If we have to think in 3 parts… Of the overall curve, the most important part is the middle as it governs the boards ability to plane well and move through the water comfortably. Without this the board will be an instant dog. The nose and tail are adjusted as needed to match waves and riders.
I don’t think in terms of percentages or formulas that can be described easily. I view the flow, it is a more artistic approach. It can be described in numbers and needs to be for replecation, but it is the visualization that is the core creative process.
There is so much more to say about this and I have some great examples to clarify the importance of each. Maybe I can get back to each of these questions and further my comments to forthcoming questions or comments.
For now I have to run into Honolulu for errands and will post more tonight.
.
Not sure how this ended up in the Hot Seat folder, but until it’s over, it belongs in General Discussion, and Bill specifically requested such. I want to honor that request, and hence I’m going to move this back to General Discussion. Once Bill has taken off from the Hot Seat, the thread will be put in the Hot Seat folder, for future reference.
No worries Bill - you’ve got a business to run & we appreciate what time you’re able to spend here.
Incidentally, after thinking about it for a couple of minutes I realised that trying to accomplish a full MCS measurement in a carpark over the space of 20 minutes is probably not too realistic - I recall reading somewhere (probably something you posted or an interview you gave) that just the rail-to-rail measurements alone occur every half-inch of the board.
That being said I’d still love to hear about the full MCS system anyway - even more so about the reasons behind the system. How you designed it. How (and why) you decided to measure one thing, but not another. In your post above about the effect you had on Rusty, you mentioned the potential of what MCS can do; the measurements taken in MCS are just the beginning; being able to reproduce a board exactly is great (for a whole bunch of reasons), but what you do with those measurements is even more valuable; having a system you can apply to them that will teach you, that will help you learn what works, what doesn’t, and why, so that you can quickly figure out how to get a board to work for any rider and/or any conditions, or figure out and understand a new board or concept from someone else, or perhaps something you’ve discovered or stumbled across yourself… now that is sexy.
Incidentally, I’ve been fooling around recently developing my own little measurement system; guess you could call it “CMS” (Carpark Measurement System) for rapidly measuring up a board in a carpark over the space of 20 minutes or so. Essentially, you place the board deck down on a flat surface/plank, trace a half-template for the rail outline, flip it onto it’s rail with the stringer parallel to the surface/plank it’s resting on, trace a deck and bottom rocker outline, then take measurements of the deck and bottom contours at several points along the length of the board (Wide Point plus several others according to what features are present on the deck and bottom), followed by fin position measurements.
What can I/should I be adding to this? -> I daresay though, the answer to my question about how you designed MCS as a system would tell me that 
I’m afraid I’m off myself for a surf trip for the next couple of days so won’t be able to see or respond to anything until then; 'looking forward to seeing what’s happened here when I get back! This is turning into a really FUN and interesting thread
Cheers all!
That’s some great background right there Bill. I do appreciate knowing the history and background. I rode his Thrusters in the '80’s under the Canyon label. They were sent North to Central Coast Surf Shop in SLO. Mostly 6"8, 6’3and a 6’10" gun that I took to Oahu one March. So you think you might make it over to Del Mar in may?? Lowel
Bill, I Know that you sent some time working with Rusty You also worked with a few other San Diego area shapers Like Bill Castor and Ed Wright. Have any interesting stories about other San Diego area shapers you would like to share?
Huck, did we lose Bill’s response to this question in the transfer? It was classic.