thanks very much Bill !
great photo too by the way !
cheers
ben
"You can’t take anything too seriously. You have to have a huge sense of humor about yourself and others. You have to get comfortable trying to be precise in an industry that worships imprecision, newness, being different etc, even if it is stolen and not new, yet still requires great conformity to be cool and accepted. You better be wearing a Trucker Hat…! It is a wild ride, have fun and do the best you can and ignore the rest lest it drive you crazy ! "
… THAT … right there , to me … has to be some of the best , most sensible advice [ for life , as well as "surfboard stuff "] that I have ever read , in eleven years of being on this forum.
[ Common sense really , but , as the cliche says … the thing about 'common sense ’ , is that it is not actually all that 'common ’ ! ]
THANKS !
Ben
Hi Bill -
Some priceless stuff in this thread. I had typed a question but common sense got the better of me and I have edited it out. Thanks for sharing!
Aloha peterg1
I understand what board we are specifically talking about. But I never used the term… “inverted” V to describe the vee in the board. Nor would I. I honestly don’t know what an “Inverted Vee” is. I am UNaware of whether or not any concave is required to create an Inverted Vee as you have stated.
Shaun’s board doesn’t have what I would define as Spiral Vee. It is a Squash tail which eliminates the Spiral. Additionally, Shauns board is flat behind the fin so the rail line doesn’t have to spiral up to meet the stringer.
In my world, the “Spiral” part of the Spiral Vee describes how on a round pintail the rail line is moving away from the center line. As this difference grows toward the tail, the rail line has to evenutally rise back up to meet with the stringner at the tip of the tail. Looking at the profile of the board, the rail line (sort of) spirals up radically at the tail of the board. I am not asserting this to be true or agreed to by everyone in the industry. It is just what I have always understood it to be going back a few decades. I have included a graphic to show this, that I made a long time ago when this subject came up before.
Maximum Vee is front of the fins around 24" up from tail. For the record, I don’t use the term Apex when discussing board design as it has all kinds of inherent problems, not the least is that few understand it and where it actually lands on curves. (see previous Swaylocks discussions on Apex) By maximum Vee I mean the greatest distance between the stringer and rail rockers. It has nothing to do with what would or could be the Apex of either of those rockers.
I am still unclear of your question. Are you using spiral to describe the vee from rail to rail or am I misunderstanding you.
BB
https://swaylocks7stage.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/Spiral%20Vee…?%20.jpg
Maybe this? I am not an expert on the subject and would love to find an “older timer” then me who really new the description in its original form.
https://swaylocks7stage.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/Spiral%20Vee…?%20_1.jpg
Believe it or not I hadn’t seen the previous posts you made regarding NOT using the term APEX! I’m saving this one and hereby consider it to be the final word on the subject. I will never refer to ‘tail rocker apex’ again… HAHA
Thanks! (seriously)
Well thanks for clearing that up “old timer” peeterG. Makes perfect sense. "Cuse me while I check the mail box for my Social Security check. There’s nothing wrong with being unable to answer an honest question. But there is no need to circumvent, evade or otherwise BS ones way thru the question. Easier to say “flock I don’t know”.
D
Aloha peterg1
Did you notice the “Spiral Vee” thread Greg Griffen started in Discussions? Presuming the info is accurate, Spiral Vee is a rail to rail feature, as I think you were suggesting. I don’t know if your perception of Spiral Vee matches what was stated or is the same as the drawings posted but it if is, then your question about whether or not I was using Spiral Vee in Shaun’s board can now be answered in the negative. I didn’t use Spiral or Inverted Vee. My “Concave Vee” is and pretty much always has been, a consistent shallow concave arc from rail to stringer. I will try to remember the info in Greg’s thread so I can respond more authoritively next time and not sound like such an uninformed ignoramous, regarding something that all cool shaper dudes are supposed to know. :-)
Now in the “Poking Fun At The Surf Industry” Department. (not poking fun at you peterg1)
Sadly, I haven’t invented a cool name to describle the shallow arc I use so we are just stuck with “Concave Vee” for now. But just for fun, maybe I will think up a cool name for it and print up some logos, T-shirts and Trucker Hats…!! That way this Concave Vee thing, which is not my invention I am sure, can be attributed to me for ever and ever.
Seriously though peterg1, thanks for the discussion and time.
BB
Glad you caught that too Ben.
Words to live by.
Thanks Bill for putting it all in perspective.
Respect.
…
What happened to your post? I was going to answer but now it is gone…
So… Spiral Vee. Lets talk about this and then lets move on.
Greg Griffen’s personal recolections are accurate as far as I know. Additionally, the quotes he posted are also accurate, as far as I know. And while I have said “I don’t know” alot about these things, I probably know alot more then I was letting on that I did.
Greg is a tad older then I am and is the Older Guy who I was referring to that might post something about this subject. He isn’t the only guy who knows but is the one I figured might speak up on the subject.
I should post this on the “Spiral Vee” thread but I am just going to give this subject one more shot and then move one because there are many who have asked questions that I haven’t gotten to on this Hot Seat thread and don’t want to delay them any longer.
It is very important for everyone to understand here, especially the younger guys (say… under 50 ha, ha) that unless you were there 48 years ago or so, you will never understand how amazing the shortboard revolution was. I won’t spend a bunch of time here trying to tell that story or make my point about how unique it was. But… IT WAS! Just believe it. One of the reasons for this was because something totally new was being created by a whole bunch of people all around the surfing world who had no idea where it was going to go in the end. Most didn’t even know each other. Most weren’t industry pros. It was a very organic, grass roots happeining, in which there were no rules and no one in control.
No one really had a full grasp of what was happening nor was anyone really leading the charge. Everything was happening super fast and change dominated, it was coming from all directions at once. There were many different people in regional leaderships at moments, with a few making it into International leadership for brief times here and there. Every design developemnt of the time, had some point of origin and an originator or two. Some got credit, some didn’t. Everthing was being coppied and shared at an amazing rate. A specific design development might get a name that stuck, others didn’t. Within weeks, as a design circulated around the world, that name was being attributed to other designs that had nothing to do with the specifics of the original design. In most cases, the specific design wasn’t even around anymore after a few months! But, the name often was and was kept circulating around and around by being attributed to all kinds of different versions of the original design and even sometimes, something completely different.
There is really no way to compare what happened back then to how such a revolution would happen now with the Internet and all the traveling surfers and contests all over the world. We all judge by our own standards and as such we all think we know, because we DO know within the scope of your true experience. But we are limited in what we can be sure of, because we usually weren’t there yet likely wish we would have been. So we believe what we think we know about what happened because it makes us feel better, almost like we were actually there. But in a time of tomultious change, like the late 60s, this is a horrible way to establish what the true facts or history were.
This is why I am often saying… I don’t know! It doesn’t mean I don’t know what I am doing. It likely just means I don’t know what your talking about, though you think you do.
I was there for a lot of the stuff discussed here but I also recognize how transient and perishible most of what happened was. So I don’t like to lay claims to absolutes and don’t feel I need to, to be a cool shaper dude. I know what I saw and what I experienced. And I am not worried about what I missed. I also recognize that the revolutioin was so huge, that my own experience can only reflect a small slice of the world wide revolution that took place.
So lets summerize. To the best of my knowledge, Original Spiral Vee has little to do with concaves. In fact, it seems to me that these bottoms, rail to rail, were not even very flat but rather slightly convex at their flattest points. Flats and convaves were added by others shortly after, including me but I never did or would call them Spiral or lay claim to any originality in this.
To the best of my knowledge, Spiral Vee with its original name and design was, as Greg has confirmed, a wide convex bottom in the forward center part of the board that slowly narrowed and tapered down to a narrow centered crown of Vee forward of the fin, lessening and flattening out toward the tail. And also, lessening and flattening toward the rails. Remember, this was an evolution away from longboads that had very roundy bottoms. This is hard to describe in words it is more so, a slice of a cone.
Nothing in this design really “spirals”, it “Tapers”. But that is what it got called and is one of the main reasons everyone gets so confused. Spirals, are by definition, completely different things. But it was a cool sounding name and it stuck big time! This is a perfect example of the name absorbing all the memories and emotions of the era while not describing the design very well at all.
Because of this, people wanting to be players in the tribe, attach deeply to these “named” things even though they only actually existed for a few months before morphing into all kinds of variations to the point where decades later everyone is arguing over the precise design and use of the term. As noted, not long after, some were calling Convave Vees, Spiral Vees. The little graphic I posted was another version of what some called a Spiral Vee and why.
There is nothing magic contained in the name, such that you can shape what you think is a “Spiral Vee” into your board and it will then inherit some deep and powerful magic from the late 60’s which will hurtle your design into the stratosphere and bring you immense fame. The design had some relevence back then no doubt, but like most things of the time… little of it, if anything, still exists in a form that can rightfully own the original title, let alone, bring special magic to your designs like Frodo’s magic ring! The only magic left… is solely in the minds of those who toss around the name and those who are impressed with them doing it.
As I have said many times… That is a lot of what surfing and making boards is actually about, so if it rings your bells, enjoy your use of the term and impressing other with it. It is all good!
This great and reverent synthesis could be the soulmate of Huck’s advice about the shaping process:
Just build what you like and have fun. Surfing is about having fun.
Theories and concepts are great tools, but hard to understand for shaping noobs.
Experience rules, but we don’t have the will to wait and learn anymore…
Let’s get back to the foam and try to get something enjoyable from it !
Aloha grasshopper. I wish I could tell you that there was some favorite boards that really stand out but I waited a few days hoping one or more would come to mind… Sadly, I am drawing a blank. While I have never made the 10s of thousands of boards that many production shapers have, I have still made thousands of boards and after awhile, they all sort of blend together over time. Plus, my style is more one of refinement in progressive steps, rather then huge revolutionary leaps so each board is a small successful step and while important, is less memorable then a major leap in design.
I do have many memories, and certain boards are part of them. Like Tom Carroll’s lime green and white single fin, I think it was around 7’ and narrow. He tore it up on that board! Bobby Owen’s Waimea gun that was narrower and thinner then everyone was doing at the time that allowed him to surf Waimea like he did Sunset. Shaun Tomson’s, all black 7’ single fin that was so elegant and beautiful all polished and in his hands all the more so. My personal board that Ricky Irons got on the cover of Surfing Magazine while riding at Rocky Point. And of course Margo Oberg who surfed her boards as good a most men and all my female team riders who had quivers full of refined boards in amazing colors. The list is long and I am sure I am leaving out all kinds of people that deserve better. Among my personal rides are unique reminders of days and waves that will never be erased. People, Places and Moments in time frozen in colors, shapes and smells, they all carry stories far too long and many to tell.
The adventure isn’t over yet and while I have slowed it down a bit to keep my sanity. Each board I make is still a memorable slice of artistry that moves and challenges me in unexpected ways. It is a weird seduction.
“unless you were there 48 years ago or so, you will never understand how amazing the shortboard revolution was”
so, so true. One month enjoying my 9’8 Trestle Special in well overhead SF OB surf, the next month stripping the glass and hand shaping it with a surform and block plane into a 7’0. 3 months later stripping down an old Hansen and shaping it into a 6’0. A wild charge into the future,in our area led by Dick Keating, out in front as always.
And thanks for shovelling some dirt on the spiral V, Bill, it had been debated to death.
My question has to do with fin placement. Assume a 7’8 x 21 fun gun, where would you place a thruster set, and conversely a quad set, and how would you set them up. Also be interested in any thoughts on fins, i.e., system vs. glass-ons, current favorites, see any changes coming in fin design…
cheers
Man do I miss those 80s airbrush jobs. That is one thing that is really missing with today’s boards. Loved it back when guys like Pottz had entire quivers of airbrushed boards. Today’s magic marker scribble is no replacement. Who was the artist who sprayed these? Big thumbs up!!!
C
Aloha Mako
My airbrusher at this time was Suzi Gillette. Mother of Gavin Gillette…!
Current photo and one from about 30 years ago
I totally agree with you about colors. Color is inspirational and lifts the spirit. It differentiates things and give them personality. Good design also includes how customers are effected by appearence. Good design stimulates desire and drives sales.
Just reading.
Can’t help by self.
Fellow, once a Harbor rider.
Winter of 67/68 while surfing El Cap bumped into Mctavish.
Next day I ditched my 9-10 Sol for a William Dennis 7-10 stringless V.
Took me a week to stand up!
“Thanks for the memories”!
I can’t think of anything that “Needs to be revisited” really. The current group of top shapers are amazingly talented guys with amazing tools and talents at their disposal. Shaping machines in the right hands, can allow them to quickly shape every variation of a design feature while keeping all the other features unchanged. This allows them to easily sift through all the variables one can think of to arrive at the best overall design and be fairly confident that they have got it right or are on the right track to get there. In the hands of the right guy this is unstopable!
Sadly many using machines, are busy copying other peoples successful designs rather then being used as, scientific tools for controlled experimentation.
Surfboard design is at a highly matured state, such that there is only a very, very small likelyhood that anyone is going to create any kind of revolutionary designs that will overturn the status quo. I am not saying it couldnt happen, it is just not very likely. This is typical of many products in their life cycle. Can anyone improve significantly on the iPod? Car Tires? The Trumpet? Eventually all products hit a certain level of maturity in their life cycle where they go a bit flat. Not because they are bad, but because they are so darn good and well refined that there just isn’t anything left to improve on. Still you never know when someone might just stumble upon a unique combination of features that will launch a mini revolution. Usually this is due to some external change that makes the “new thing” possible. Wave pools might be just such a change. Or if for some strange reason ocean water got thicker. Or gravity changed. Like finding oceans on Mars…
There are several reasons for what you are observing, not the least of which is crowds and multi fins.
In the early 70’s the average length of a Pipe gun was 7’6" to 8’6". And thickness was between 2 3/4" to 3 1/4". Sunset boards were even bigger and thicker. Crowds are a powerful driving force in directing changes. In 71 I was riding a 7’6" x 18 1/2 and thinner. By 74 it was 8’2" x 19 and thicker. Shaun’s famous pink gun was 8’ if I remember right. You have to be competively equipped to match the crowd your in and if they go longer you have to also or you can’t get enough waves.
Once multi fins got sorted out, everything changed radically. The fin on the inside rail meant it was near impossible to spin out or lose one’s grip on the face of the wave. Additionally, it meant we could ride wider & thicker tails, allowing narrower boards that were thinner forward and yet were much faster then single fins. One could now outrun most any tube if it was clean enough. And since most were following this trend down in board size, it meant that everyone could follow along as well without the normal punishment of not getting enough waves.
Backside surfing at Pipe has continued to evolve to the point that those guys can often take of as deep or deeper then the frontside guys. Granted the grabbing rail, butt drag take off, to achieve this, is nearly a bodyboarder technique but it has been widely embrased and accepted so it is part of the whole process now.
While the crowds have gotten even worse, the improvements in board designs have allowed surfers to use ever smaller equipment that would not normally be crowd friendly at all. On top of that, at places like Pipeline, the caliber of the surfers has risen so high that everyone out, is a world class surfer. There is no room in the peak for anyone of lesser stature. This is hugely important when trying to paddle through a blinding, offshore spray and into the latest take off of your life on one of the most dangerous waves in the world, while confidently knowing that your peers in the water aren’t likely to do anything stupid that is going to kill you…!