Shaping different Foams

We all know the demise of Clark Foam ushered in a new world for both experienced industry shapers and DIY’ers. Recently I’ve had the opportunity to shape some of the available foams and here is a some input on them.

First up was the MDI (Methyl Phenyl Di Isocynate) ‘bio-foam’ from Homeblown. This foam is originally from the UK since around the 80’s and their formula is now available in the U.S. and other locations. They use a plant base devoid of the chemical toulene otherwise known as TDI blanks (Clark Foam was a TDI - Toulene Di Isocynate). They have not made it generally known what the plant base is, perhaps soy. Another MDI foam has been made available to me to try shaping from the guys at Ice 9: their blanks are a sugar base MDI. Initially I will say I like that they have a good variety of weights available using the boxing categories (fly, feather, etc.) to describe their densities. These blanks are poured in aluminum molds vs. concrete. The ones I received have very smooth finishes on them out of the mold and even a raised logo as part of the blank. They showed me some cool options for stringers including colors. Pricepoint is very competitive. A quick note on a recent call from them: do not overheat the layups or while setting in FCS or other fin inserts, boxes, leashcups, etc. (makes sense, sugar melts). Be especially careful on inserts if you are using milled fibers for your reinforcement…MF will heat up the resin/catalyst mix even more so. Their current recommendation is to not exceed .7% catalyst to resin ratio. If you are using UV resin for layups and adding catalyst to UV in order to set your logo laminates while glassing, be careful not to exceed .5% catalyst for the UV resin. Also very dark color schemes could present a problem. They are aware of this and may make some adjustments. More on these when I shape my first one next week.

The Homeblown has overall consistent rigid foam. After shaping several I noticed some inconsitencies (mainly on the bottom, where I removed most of the foam…a typical practice for experienced shapers that restructure blanks and primarily used Clark’s Foam. Thicknessing from the bottom was prevalent due to the gradient of Clark’s foam (harder crust, softer core) in order to produce a stronger finished deck resisting pressure dents from heels, knees, and other blows.

Using sharp blades on a full size Clark Hitachi planer, I found my usual planing speed would result in considerable tearing of the foam. By slowing down approximately 40% to 50% on forward cuts, the foam planed very nice and with no cheddar; although on one blank, “cheddar” resulted in some spots regardless of what pace I was mowing at. I do not have an abrasive drum on one of my planers as they are not available for the larger Clark Hitachi model (I have 2 of them). I do not like the short planers as they do not have ‘blocking action’.

Good quality abrasives make the block sanding a much more enjoyable experience. I recently purchased some strips of abrasive at the local Ace hardware store and the stuff was purple colored flexible strips that the coarser grits (60 grit) was quoted as being a great paint stripper. I used Tacky disc adhesive and put the stuff on one of my sanding blocks and it has worked very well on Homeblown as well as other foams. Before that, I found myself muscling the HB foam with 50 grit open coat production paper…also some disc sanding…which it does quite well and experienced shapers that disc sand may prefer. The HB foam “saws” reminiscent of the old Dow extruded foam…which inexperienced shapers may like because there is more room for error before realizing the foam is gone and they (you?) have screwed up and your mistake is now on the floor!

There had been some previous comments from craftspeople about dents showing up on their HB or MDI blanks…I had yet to shape any, and attributed this to inexpeience in handling blanks. I was wrong. I found some dents on mine as well, and was very suprised as the foam is purported to have “superior compression” than that of a Clark (Clark is frequently used as the standard for comparison). Sorry, but I know how to handle blanks, and I am now concerned as to the why pressure dents showed up.

I was also told that the blanks may shape out a little heavier than some other blanks (like U.S. or Surfblanks) but that the result will be light due to less resin absorption after glassing. And also, the option of lightening the usual glass schedule due to it’s inherent superior compression qualities. I didn’t find this to be true. Suffice to say, that a heavier core makes for a heavier board…not a problem if that is what you want.

U.S. Blanks & Surfblanks America (Midget’s foam): I found both of these foams comfortable to shape at my regular pace. If one was easier than the other, I would say the U.S. blank was the closest to a Clark. There has been a lot said about quick shaping foam not being as good for the surfer. I don’t know if I really believe that. Also the new mantra blank suppliers are ‘selling’ to everyone is how much “livelier” their foam is compared to their competitors. There has also been a huge focus on flexural characteristics of the foam. I think if you are talking about stringerless boards, you could begin to quantify this. Then you have alternative methods (parabolics, etc.) of flex and stiffening a board in specific places or gradient flex patterns…but this presents a myriad of dynamics that largely is a matter of personal preference. Bottom line: too many variables to quantify on a whole for the average consumer. I suppose someone out there could compile results but even then they would merely be stated opinions: is flexible or stiff better for a beginner? What flex configuration is optimum for fast hollow waves? Slow mushy wave? Windswell wave? Groundswell wave? Waves are as individual as people.

Back to foam…I think you have to know yourself to decide which foam works for you. Some shapers will only want to use the new superfused C bead EPS foam and stick with epoxy glassing. Others will love the ‘harder’ MDI foam that is like sawing action when sanding down. Some will prefer the softer larger EPS that tears out beads easier. Some will want the extruded because they are masochists. Some will want the closest thing that ressembles Clark Foam.

My personal preference for an everyday PE board is the US or Surfblanks. Why? Because they allow me to work at the comfortable planing speed I am so accustomed to working at. This is critically important to me because I have a rhythm and having to slow down 40% or 50% (or even 30% for that matter) basically throws me off. I want fluidity, and I find that fluidity is somehow tied directly into my creative thinking process.

All I know is what is right for me, and “good things happen with speed” is my mantra.

Added on 8/17/07:

Furthermore, I learned in the era before close tolerance blanks…when reading foam was of critical importance; both in terms of maintaing structural integrity and making a living. I adhere to the ‘less is more’ school of shaping, where a minimum of bands cut is accompanied with a roughing out technique of using the planer as a more precise surform. This blending technique employs and is cognizant of the anatomy of the planer itself and the dynamics inherent to forward and backward cuts…both have their place and purpose, and I use both equally to my advantage. In other words, it is a good thing to know the difference between your planer’s toe and tail. In addition, sideways ‘roller cuts’ can be used in the ear and shoulder area of the blank allowing for rail taper and volume distribution; this takes steady hands and some confidence. I barely use a surform if at all…no need with the planer and sanding blocks. I am very big on blocking as a parabolic arc is comprised of straight lines.

The biggest problem in shaping is overshaping…that includes you computers out there. As far as CNC shaping…density gradients can present a real problem unless registration is right on…otherwise the system is dependant on uniform cell density to eliminate overshaping the deck (or bottom for that matter). The only foam I currently know of that is uniform throughout is the higher grade EPS. I don’t think any of the PE manufacturers can prove consistent cell density through their entire blank. If I am wrong, please step up and be counted…actually extruded is probably consistent throughout? However as I eluded to earlier, if you like shaping extruded you are either a masochist or nuts, or both…anybody that wants to change my mind on this will have to supply me with a new extruded blank that makes me feel warm 'n fuzzy.

I will update this later on as I shape some other foams. As I mentioned, Ice 9 supplied me with two blanks (a 10’3 and a 6’8") both in different weights. I will be compiling data for them in a shaper’s log for future reference which will include raw blank weigh in, finish shaped weight, 1st lam weigh in, 2nd layup weigh in (with glass schedule), hotcoats, etc The guys at Ice 9 are great folks and said they would also calculate the weight of the blanks minus their stringers. This is very significant on the 10’3 as it has a 3/8" wood stringer and that is a mondo amount of weight right there. How much lighter would the same blank weigh with a divinycell stringer or no stringer and warp glass?

There is a lot of different foam out there available to us shapers, and the directions you pick are entirely up to you. However, it is nice to read and compare other’s experiences in deciding which direction you might take.

I don’t know what’s best but for the Big Sur campout in October, we will have an Ice-Nine raffle blank, a BioFoam raffle blank, assorted blocks of Urethane, EPS, XPS, Ice-Nine, Biofoam, Walker and Bennett foams to touch and feel. I’ll try and have some hand planes and sanding blocks available so everybody can check it all out.

If any other distributors have blanks or foam samples they’d like to have included, please contact me.

Thanks!


EDIT… Scott at Foam, Fins and Fiberglass in Ventura has informed me that he is contributing an entire board making kit including Walker blank, resin, glass and fin(!)

Thanks Scott!!!

That’s really great. As far as the EPS, you might try to get the new U.S. Blanks in their EPS to compare with the Marko EPS…see if there is any difference. Or perhaps ask for one with a divinycell stringer vs. wood so people can check other stringer material.

I applaud your effort…and a beautiful spot t hold it.

…back to spraying (paint’s drying fast today).

Thanks for your thorough writeup on the biofoams, as well as insight on polyurethane blanks. I got to spend some quality time with one of your boards doing a whole bunch of ding repair (many collisions), a gunish board ~9 foot. It was a really nice shape, and great artwork, too. Thus, I can totally respect your desire to keep your rythm, as it obviously works well for you! That’s great that you’re trying out the alternatives, too, and letting us know about your experiences.

–Ben

I have had the same thing with ripping (cheese) on the HomeBlown biofoam (yellow blank) if I cut too fast but not on the HomeBlown MDI white blank. The white cut just like a US Blanks. The white blank produced a board with similar weight to the US Blank too. Time will tell if it dents or not. Hopefully it will be better than the last US Blanks which heel dented pretty bad…

The tearing I was speaking of was on the white blanks. They do cut beautifully if you slow down to what I consider a crawl. Different strokes for different folks? Seriously, Ned and his crew at HB in San Diego are good people and have plenty of knowledge. The blanks are reasonably priced (a bit above some others) and readily available in Southern California. I would like to see a minimum of 4 densities to work with.

As far as foams go, anybody that is seriously looking for strong lightweight equipment has to realisticaly look at EPS foam and epoxy. You cannot even get close with PE blanks. In the 80’s I shaped an 8’10"x21"x6" light wind slalom board for myself that weighed 10 lbs. This isn’t even remotely possible with another foam. I also shaped two (as close to) identical 9’0"x21"x5" sailboards for a finished blank weight comparison. One was a dual stringer Clark blank and the other a stringerless 1.0 lb. EPS. When I weighed them as finished shapes the Clark weighed 7.4 lbs. and the EPS was 1.3 lbs.

I had over 6 lbs. to place strength where I wanted it if I even wanted to come in at the same weight as the Clark…which I didn’t, because my focus was to have a short windsurfing board that could quickly plane up. We built larger sailboards all the way up to 10’ using EPS with the intent of planing in the lightest winds possible. Other than a few exceptions, the ocean begins to whitecap at 12 knots. Current, land topography, salinity, and some other factors can affect this, but our goal was to be fully planed up and burning at 10 knots. We actually had our star team racer go out and take on a Nacra Cat and give them quite a run for their money.

Everytime I hear someone pontificating about hollow boards I have to laugh. The .5 lb. EPS boards I made were probably 98% hollow anyway with a lot less structural reinforcement headaches.

Keep it simple can be a very smart approach sometimes. Team “low tech”?

what is the attraction to clark style foam?? all i hear about US blanks is that it is so soft why keep using a crappy soft blank?? why keep providing the customer with a board that is going to crush on the first surf? then delam in a short amount of time? then biofoam its is heavy and i hear from several shapers that it has a problem being lammed? there are so many better quality blanks out there to be had. just wondering

have you heard anything regarding Richard Landingham’s(sp?) polypropelene blanks.

Over at the surfermag design forum the machine guys said they had some problems with it but I haven’t heard any results from anyone who’s hand shaped one yet other than Richard. Also I haven’t heard of anyone thats actually seen and reported back on the results of a board made with that blank.

Do the sugar based Ice-nine blanks melt worse than eps due to epoxy resin exotherm from pooling?

Is that why they gave you the warning?

Have you cut up a Marko EPS yet versus the US Blanks EPS?

Just about everyone I’ve heard from said it has one of the best fused EPS beads out there to make a styroboard from. Almost all the hardcore PU industry guys here in Hawaii are choosing it as they move into EPS shaping.

Must say something since there are alot of other cheaper EPS alternatives out there you can hot wire to your custom rocker. Shows the importance of getting a styro that’ll machine cut well for production work. The quality of EPS has really come along way from just a year or so ago. It’s amazing what the market dynamics can do to create a new industry…

Quote:

Have you cut up a Marko EPS yet versus the US Blanks EPS?

Just about everyone I’ve heard from said it has one of the best fused EPS beads out there to make a styroboard from. Almost all the hardcore PU industry guys here in Hawaii are choosing it as they move into EPS shaping.

Must say something since there are alot of other cheaper EPS alternatives out there you can hot wire to your custom rocker. Shows the importance of getting a styro that’ll machine cut well for production work. The quality of EPS has really come along way from just a year or so ago. It’s amazing what the market dynamics can do to create a new industry…

Um, seems I have some un-clarity about the above. Which EPS is being suggested to be superior?

What “plenty of better blanks” are you referring to?

As far as U.S. blanks and Clark’s original approach I will explain the logic.

Before Clark came up with “close tolerance” (blanks closer to finish shape), many of us became quite adept at restructuring blanks. The older shapers of the era had to be able to “read foam”. Reading foam means you can envision the finished board within a certain blank per se.

Shaping is a ‘reduction process’…meaning you are always taking away from the medium. The process holds its interest for many of us because you are working with ‘compound curves’, or curves that exists simultaneously. They can exist harmoniously or in juxtaposition.

Some people are good shapers. They can get a nice finish, a pretty looking product, but that doesn’t mean the board will surf well or as intended. Then you have the designers…the truly successful designers understand the big picture.

The big picture includes understanding hydro and aerodynamics, the ability to manipulate water through the proper combination of compound curves to achieve desired effects, and even the process that will be used to reinforce the blank after the board has been shaped.

In terms of the latter mentioned, suffice to say that many a potential magic board has been ruined by an inexperienced sander, glasser, or fin person further down the production line. I would have to say that many of the new boards are built upon sound formulas that become models…that doesn’t mean they are “magic”, regardless of who rode them.

A short story: in Tom Curren’s hey day, Al would shape a bunch of different boards for Tommy to try. He would take them to Rincon or The Ranch or wherever and give them a go. Sometimes he’d paddle on out, get one or two waves on it and cast it off immediately “nope, not this one”…then on to the next. Out of half a dozen or so boards there might be one he’d keep. The rest would go into the shop as “Tommy’s old board”…people would snag them up never knowing the real story. This isn’t to say the board didn’t work for them, it just provides insight as to a process that was used for one of the most prolific surfers in the world. Now everything gets logged into computers.

“Magic” is an ever elusive quest for the perfect board: there is no such one board as my magic could be your poison. Get it?

Back to foam. The different types of foam inherently have their own dynamics. Clark Foam used different densities to allow shapers a greater range material to achieve desired effects and to better satisfy individual customer needs. Some clients wanted durability while others demanded ultralight equipment. Clark Foam was a rigid foam. All rigid foams are prone to crushing. The lighter the foam formulation the more air is within the blank…this means there is less material within the blank: the cell structure becomes thinner making the board more susceptible to crushing. The point is: for what you get,you always give up something.

The molding process for blanks is fairly straight forward. Clark used hand pour labor that got very good at what they did over and over again. Today some manufacturers use computer dispensing mechanisms for less waste and what they believe to result in a better product. The close tolerance approach of designing blanks took advantage of the fact that the outer part of the blank had a higher density (harder) skin than down toward the center of the core. So crunchy on the outside and soft on the inside. This was true regardless of the densities you used. This is not to say that this is the only way Clark could produce his polyurethane foam. Quite to the contrary, as they also had high density sheet foam that many shapers never used, or were even aware of. The sheet foam went to other markets as diverse as aviation, nautical, and recreational vehicles, to name just a few. An ultralight single seater planer flew around the world that was primarily constructed of Clark Foam.

As far as your comment about denting and why anyone would even bother using it…the medium Clark created was extremely user friendly. As time went by, Clark Foam became more and more accommodating to the needs of the shaper designers. Many people have painted Grubby as this evil person running a monopoly, but I never found this to be true. I think some of the rumblings were voiced by envious ‘industry leaders’ to be honest. Of the two dozen or more foam companies that have launched since Clark’s demise, I have not seen a better servicing company than Clark Foam. Let me restate that: I have not seen a company equal to the servicing Clark Foam provided. Claims were made that Clark didn’t care about the little guy, and that’s simply not true as I was one of the little guys.

There are now many enterprising people that have gone into the blank and boardbuilding business that are there for the chief purpose of making money. Most people go into business to make money. For some it may have started as passion and their direction becomes more pragmatic as their life evolves to include a spouse, children, and other demands and needs as life unfolds.

Someone’s mantra may change from “I’m doing it for the love of it” to “where can I make a buck”?

It’s not as simple for the shaper as it once was. I would grab a blank, stick on my headphones and start my little dance on a journey toward a finished product. There was something to be said for having a medium that you could rely on as a standard. There were enough variables to ponder over once you went to glassing and provided what the customer wanted or needed.

Now you have a bunch of people out there that are hell bent on reinventing the wheel. Well I have to say guys, the wheel is pretty damn good. A lot of sweat went into the creating of the wheel, even if us new arrivals weren’t around to see it. An eighty pound redwood board won’t dent easily but just try hauling it down to the water. Balsa is much lighter and has fabulous compression qualities but soaks up water like a sponge.

Remember: for what you get, you give up something.

I don’t know if the Ice Nine blanks melt worse than EPS due to the exotherm buildup…I do know that they told me Ice 9 will melt from acetone…like EPS.

I was always amazed at how our mastracks and fin boxes held in for so long in our sailboards when set in with epoxy. Sometimes we’d do a repair on a blown out fin box and find that once we removed the broken fin box there was a cavity around it due to exotherm buildup and it looked like a network of strands ressembling that yummy coconut candy we used to eat.

Everything has its inherent challenges. I would say as far as FCS or fin box inserts or leashcups that you have to be very careful on catalyzing your resin. I’ve always noticed more heat when you add milled fibers (of course, it’s glass…and glass is an insulator or, in this case conducts or transmits, increases the heat buildup. With the epoxy I’d say to add a fair share of Q cell and don’t let the mix sit in the pot for very long…just mix it and get it in there. Also you may want to do FCS cavities in 2 stages (initial fill for the skin to skin connect, than actual setting of the inserts…that will allow some of the heat to escape). The Q cell will reduce drainage.

If you want to go more labor intensive yu can elect to install high density PE foam cassettes into your EPS blanks. The one advantage of this is that you can then shape and glass the board with epoxy and when it comes time to rout and set the fin box or inserts you can just nstall them with polyester resin. I did this for awhile on sailboard production to speed thngs up and to provide a more secure foundation for the fin boxes. It added a bit of weight though. However, be aware that hot epoxy will melt PE foam right along with anything else. The stuff can start ressembling molten lava!

so why shape with soft foam?

Why shape with soft foam?

  1. It is easy and fast. Easy to repair, shapes fast.

  2. You can glass it strong

  3. EPS is softer and soaks up water…but you can glass it strong

  4. Soft is a relative term.what is soft?

  5. Airbrushes nice.

  6. Is inexpensive, readily available, and you can make a board in 1 day.

  7. The feel of a new board is what keeps you surfing. The same board for 30 years would bore the hell out of me. Yeah I know, resale.

  1. Soft is a relative term.what is soft?

a shaped blank that dents when picked up off the rack?

  1. I like a new board every few months but I don’t like my new board to dent to hell in the the first surf or be dead in a month. thats why a quiver of well built boards is a must.

I am not aurguing with you I just want to know why the sort of back stepping to a soft foam when easier shaping consistant density foam is available?

seems like if you want an alternative core from any “name brand” here it’s either going to be made of Marko EPS or XTR.

The whole Insulfoam block stuff project unless its for SUPs is pretty much dead and I haven’t heard of any of these other brands mentioned here available from any of the labels. I guess it helps to get your foot in the door first.

I’ve only seen ads from Bushman who has recently been marketing his new “green” solution with the Homeblown MDI biofoam.

This whole new “Green” marketing focus is just another sales gimic joke from the labels who are just looking out for their dollar. It’s funny that it’s suddenly become so important to all these guys after all these decades of polluting the environment. Just another Marketing bubble in my opinion.

I’m still waiting for the first nano-saturated foaming Aluminum blank to show up somewhere.

Totally recyclable, just turn it in with your aluminum cans and plastic water bottles for cash where you’re done with it…

In reply to Pierpont and Oneula:

Pier…any blank will dent if manhandled. You are talking about 2 and 3 lb. densities here. The weight to strength ratio achievable frm these “soft” foams are actually quite remarkable. Esp. when hand finished in a pretty down and dirty inexpensive manner.

As far as the EPS comments…Western Insulfoam or whoever you may have used was the available source we had back in 1980 - '89. Some of this foam (actually a good amount of it) wasn’t virign, was prone to post production expansion, and was not any where near the quality that Marko is distributing. If you asked Marko…they would agree.

As far as the green comment…none of these blanks are totally beneficial for the environment. EPS uses benzene or similar chemicals in its process, extruded uses something detriental but I’m not up on which chemical…and even Ned McMahon at Homeblown concedes that their biofoam isn’t fully green…he recently did a write up on this. So as far as his take on the green issue, Ned is quite realistic about it. Homeblown is also closely associated with a major environmental concern out of Great Britain.

As far as Bushman’s approach, you may want to note that he is also exploring using bamboo (a very sustainable resource) for reinforcing his decks. I have known Jeff going back to the days that he brought his early work to my factory in SB for glassing and asked for any tips on improving his early shapes. He had an excellent attitude toward the guidance I provided him and that attitude has served him well to this day. Remaining open to new ideas is a hallmark to progression.

There are always hidden agendas in our marketplace…maybe this is what keeps things interesting. I know that you are not arguing with me…not in the least…subjects should be and do benefit from debate. One of the points I was attempting to make in earlier comments is that a lot of history, hardwork, inspiration, investment of time and energy (and money) went into where we currently are. So in effect, I do not take the latter day Clark Foam approach for granted. Grubby layed a huge solid foundation for us to work from. I respect Midget Farrelly and his track record at Surfblanks as well as others that have come and gone (Foss, Rogers, Walker) along the way. There is always room for improvement.

Yater and I were talking one day back when, and I said that his inclusion into the Surf Tech line and what other people were doing changed the age old pricing dilemma for surfboards. It is no longer a “how cheap can I get it for scenario”, it is now a “what approach to construction/benefit do I want to pay for”.