Shaping Racks

General Discussion
1

Guys,

Call me a nice guy or call me naive, but I have let my friend (we’ll just call him J.I.) share my 400 sq. ft. shaping bay and workshop for going on 3 years now. We haven’t done much together as far as projects are concerned, but he built two boards in there start to finish for himself, repaired several boards, used my tools and stored all kinds of junk from his old shaping and glassing shacks on the side of my house. We had an agreement to split any costs down the middle, but I always re-imbursed him when he would spend any kind of money on the shop, and he has never once offered to pay me for rent on the shop. Keep in mind he has a gararge door opener and has been able to come and go as he pleases.

He was going to glass two of my Skip Frye’s (for free I thought since he was using my shop), but asked me for $200 for glassing materials. Then when he gave me the Frye’s he said I owed him $60 for pinlines and $440 for glass jobs on both boards. I was like, “Huh?” You’re kidding right? he said, no man, I couldn’t use the materials I originally bought for the Frye’s so we’ll have to work something out later for that. I said, "Dude, I know you’re hurting for money, and you did a killer job on the Frye’s but all I have is $258 to pay you right now. He took it and said he expected the difference. I told him we’d have to discuss that.

He came to the shop one day and I told him not to glass in there anymore and to get his glassing stuff out of there because I was starting to have complaints from my neighbor. Well, I went in there the next day and he had removed everything from the glassing area including several tools of mine, that he claims he never touched (this surprised me because he doesn’t seem like the kind of guy who would jack my things). I asked him again to look around and bring back the things I was missing and he insisted he only took what was his. I looked around the shop and notice he took templates that I took the time to trace out and cut out, and he said they were rightfully his. I dropped it let it go.

Then I started to notice all kinds of shaping stuff coming up missing including templates for boards. He claims he never touched any of it.

I even posted a Dewey Weber of his that was worth $30,000 on an ebay auction for him and I got stuck with the fee.

I recently just took the rest of his things, moved them to the side of the house threw tarps over them to make sure they were not going to get ruined and just rearranged the shop to use for my self. I pulled the plug on the garage door opener and locked the doors and he did not think that was very cool.

He came over today and insisted that I give him 10 templates that he had traced out, even though I made him copies on Lauan. I had cut the templates out and fine-tuned them myself. They took some time. He wouldn’t leave until I gave him the templates. Before he left, I basically told him he needed to make arrangements to come by and get the rest of his things, and he still insists that I own him money for lights in the shop, lighting shelves, and time he spent helping me with setting up the shop and building the walls. He’s even taking the shaping racks.

What do you guys think? Am I expecting too much by keeping the lights and lighting shelves, giving him the rest of his stuff, and calling it even? He wants me to pay him for all of that. Doesn’t he owe me some kind of compensation for rent over a 3 year period and storage?

Heck, I had 50 surfboards and had to sell them all for rent. He stored 6 boards in my place for over 2 years and just took them out today.

What the heck? Am I totally out of my mind for telling him that I think we’re even?

Plus… do any of you have some adjustable, welded steel shaping racks you want to sell or barter with? I need some… he’s taking the racks!

2

Kawika, I think that you’re a very patient person.

I’ll tell you, things would have been much more simpler (and quicker) if your “friend” had behaved with me like this…

3

Kawika, You are a pushover. I’m sure that you are a super nice guy but you should man up and tell JJ where to go. I once had a shed and had a friend make a board there. He acted like an asshole and I never let him back. He still owes me money for the materials that I picked up for him. Small price to pay for the privilege of his banishment.

I know there are two sides of the story but think about this. Your home, your rules. Call the cops if need be.

4

Hi K, you sound like a super good bloke…he sounds like a #unt/.he is taking advantage of you in the biggest way…tell him to get fucked. Then refuse to talk to him…shut him out of your life cause you dont need ‘friends’ like that…Failing that, hire some heavies with lead pipes to sort him out. (just kidding - though its tempting some times)

Ado

5

Hmmm, well, if you kill him, you could get caught and run the risk of significant jail time.

You did not start it all up with a strong, enforced agreement (50/50 quickly gets gray).

Probably gonna have to chock it up to experience. When he came over to get his shit,

you could have protected your stuff by locking it up, or stashing it in your trunk. Unless

you catch him in the act or in possession of your stuff, it’s only going to be an accusation.

Maybe try to go find it. Many a time I’ve seen bros go right into another guys house and

“repossess” their misplaced belongings. Strong arm. Again, don’t get caught.

Your buddy is a perfect shoe-in for the surf “industry”, he’s a total sponge. Give an inch

and he’ll take a foot… …mooching is almost a prerequisite for most shops. I hate that.

It creates a lot of stress and an overall bad vibe in the shop.

I have an extra shaping rack at my shop, all steel and fully articulable, but I’m not giving

it away, most likely we’ll get over $500 for it. Where’s the Sponge’s new shop at? I’ve

got some biker friends who do very well at persuading people to relinquish goods on the

spot.

Good Luck.

6 
Howzit Kawika, The guy sounds like a total jerk and a rip off to boot. Hang a "Tresspassers will be shot" sign on the shop door. 

I have let a few people use my glassing room and would tell them to leave it as they found it. If they didn't I would tell them what they didn't do right and if they ever screwed up again they were no longer allowed in the shop. Remember, this is your shop and you are the king in it.Aloha,Kokua
7

Its a pretty messed up situation. Legally, unless he can prove the stuff is his, he probably can’t do much. If he has receipts and you hold the stuff he could take you to court to reclaim his supposed items. As far as getting money for time spent setting up the shop he can never get that unless it was discussed prior to setting it up and agreed upon by both parties. Even then, if its just a verbal contract its up to the judge to decide who they believe.

Honestly though, if this guy is a douchebag like you say and isnt going to leave you alone, is it worth the hassle just to keep a few hundred dollars worth of stuff? If he is fighting that hard to get it just give it to him. Karma will get him if he is wrong and he will never prosper. One winter on the westside of Oahu my friend and I stupidly (I know I should have known better, so I dont want to hear it) locked our stuff in the car while we surfed. We figured because we could still see the car so no one will mess with it, well we were wrong. The $100 bucks of stuff they got away with didnt effect my life for the worse, maybe it really helped him out or maybe he just scored some ice. Who knows and who cares. That guy is probably still stealing stuff, in jail, or dead. It wasnt worth getting all pissed about because I should have known better. Now hopefully you know better now then to mix friendship and business.

Jon

8

First off Kawika

hand him a bill for past due rent. tell him its due in 2 weeks or to court you both will go.

second, if you can identify your tools he stold call the cops and they will go to his place with you to identify them and get

them back maybe he will spend the night in jail

third, maybe “karma” comes at the end of a baseball bat to some people and maybe your the messanger to deliver the “karma”

I liked the biker idea , I let a guy use one of my spare motorcycle’s and the prick stoll it. When my drinking buddies found out they went on a search and destroy mission, anyone who knew him got their ass’s kicked hard. gotta love biker friends (real bikers)

9

Yeah guys, I pretty much feel like a putts. What sucks is that I know I am a nice guy, and I’d rather help someone out than have a weird friendship or loss of a friendship. Even though I probably won’t be hanging out with hi, surf, and or learning the trade from him, I guess I’m better off this way. I’ve definitely learned that doing it all by my self is the best policy.

I honestly think he believes in his own mind that he is right. He’s 55 years old and I’m 33. HE probably just thinks I’m just a young punk kid who doesn’t know any better.

I talked to him today and just laid it all out there for him to hear and I thought my neighbors were going to call the five-o, as it was going so well (haha). Basically it was a waste of my breath. It was either deal with it or start swinging and we were both about to that point.

We both just agreed that neither of us thought we were getting a fair shake, and before it turned into a fight, we went about our day.

I’m chalking it up to a loss. And I’m working alone and having someone else do my glass work.

I’m over it.

10

Without getting into the whole issue as it’s been well covered I’d just like to add this…

You seem to have an odd definition of the word “friend”. :wink:

Friendships are not “you give, I take”, they are not a relationship where you let just about anything slide because they are “a friend”, and they are certainly not the kind of relationship where they get to take your stuff, then some more of your stuff, and then a bit more with you bending over further and further backwards to try and keep the peace.

Basically if they are trying to screw you over, they are not your friend, no matter how much you might like or respect them.

Sorry you got stuffed by this guy, and glad it didn’t come to violence, but I’ve had people string me along before and as soon as I reassessed what friendship actually was to me things like that stopped happening.

I’m the nice guy/soft touch type too, so I know what it’s like to be treated like a soft touch - you don’t have to start being a jerk to stop it happening, just keep people a little bit more at arm’s length. Then you can still be nice, help out and all the other things you do, while at the same time protecting yourself a bit from freeloaders.

I found it really very hard to get used to the idea that the people who screwed me over (some for money, some for love/friendship and some for time) were not even close to friends (even though I’d known some of them for getting on a decade) - but once I did, everything made more sense and became much easier to understand and deal with.

Some good points made by others - especially the “only a few hundred dollars” part. I lost about $300 (rough conversion) to a couple of people I thought were pretty close friends and, in short, it was a $300 lesson in friendship learned. It stung like hell at the time since I was already really hard up, but now there is about 5 years of water under the bridge and I barely even remember the exact amount.

Aloha.

11

I’m still sitting on some debt and supplies from a roughly similar experience. When it comes to dealing with unspoken and unwritten agreements between ‘friends’, recourse, when things go bad, is limited – but that’s true, for all involved. I held on to what I thought was fair (no negotiations), and let the rest go, which included the friendship.

The experience changes you.

kc

12

Kawika,

Dude. This guy is being a total A-hole. Not doubt about it. Probably because the glassing materials came right out of his pocket right now and that’s the way he thinks, short term. All he was thinking was he laid out cash and wanted it back. When he couldn’t get it he became the victim which justified his taking your stuff. Guys like this see everything in a way that works to their advantage.

I know you were being a nice guy but it sounds like there was a lot of “letting it slide” going on for a long time which makes things really vague. If you were putting up with it because you were getting knowledge from him, well, knowlege ain’t cheap. All that psycho-babble aside, you don’t just take a guys stuff over a disconnected dispute. The glassing is the glassing and that’s the arguement. To start taking stuff for compensation is just plain lame and illegal.

Find and expample of space and tool rental and balance that against whatever he’s claiming you owe him.

I know it’s uptight but you should probably take pics of your tools and templates. Works for insurance and the cops should you decide to go collect legally instead of using the bikers.

Glad to hear you guys have called it even and are going your separate ways. I think most openers are reprogrammable. Change the locks and reprogram or whatever.

13

Plus one on it being a lesson. I recently lost some money on a boat that wouldn’t float. Long story short, I’m feeling like I lost hundreds if not thousands on a stupid boat that I only had in the water twice. I tell this to my Pops, and rather than him feeling sorry for me, and wondering how I could be so stupid, he says to me that I should view it as education, and education ain’t cheap. What does a private college cost now? $40k a year? City colleges in CA? >$800 for residents, >$6000 for non-residents per semester. Losing a few hundred bucks sucks in a bad way. But as long as you learn from the lesson, then it is money well spent on continuing education.

Working with people can be a great experience (Bert and Josh come to mind). Sounds like you guys had some good times, before you started having some bad times. A good partnership can be a synergistic experience, but it takes clear communication. Good luck to you in future collaborations.

–BCo

EDIT: When I say Bert and Josh come to mind, I mean that those two seem to be having a great experience working with one another…in case that wasn’t clear.

14 
Howzit Kawika, Let me get it straight, did you or he buy the materials that couldn't be used on the boards. If it was him he must not know that much about glassing and the right materials he bought. If this is the case then I would subtract that amount from what he says you owe him due to his stupidity. Aloha,Kokua
15

Artisan

Quote:

Plus… do any of you have some adjustable, welded steel shaping racks you want to sell or barter with? I need some… he’s taking the racks!

Occupation: Teacher / Shaper / Wood Crafter /

After a quick scan of your websites … I have to wonder why you don’t build your own racks or hit up one of your industry connections?

16

Well Bud, the reason I want some adjustable welded racks is because I’m sick of using the standard buckets w/ racks; or wood shaping stands; or wood stands mounted to the floor that can’t be adjusted… etc. The racks he is taking worked okay for the time being, but I want something I can mount to my floor, adjust up or down, and be able to shape a little mini 3’ wall clock board or a huge 13’5" board like Paul Krotzebue. the Welded Steel racks that I’ve seen can adjust with a pin or peg or screw and are relatively quick to adjust. I could easily make some of my own, or have someone weld some up for me, but I need something ASAP so I don’t have to take the time to make them. I need to be able to get in there and shape without losing time shopping for racks. My wife hasn’t worked in 16 months because we just had a little baby girl, and my $40,000 teacher’s salary only goes so far… my shaping gig is all I have to pay the bills… know what I mean?

17

This is what I wrote up before we got into it out front of my house… I presented this to him verbally and he basically wouldn’t let me get a word in edgewise. He had an excuse and something to say to everything I mentioned… He turned it all around and made me feel like I was the one in the wrong here… what a manipulative bastard. I’m sure glad I’ve mellowed out since my younger days. He would have been on the ground in a submission hold for doing something like this to me… trust me… the thought was going through my mind as he stood right there in front of my house… but I can’t take a risk like that now that I am married with two kids. Here’s the note…

Next time you come to get the rest of your things, bring back my:

  • Mini Phil Birch fins that I made so I can finish them. I love how you told the Futures rep that they were your design so you could get the kick downs when they make a line of the fins I built (modeled after Phil’s Reverse template that I got from Bill Thrailkill) what gives you the right to do that? You said you wanted to beat Donald Takayama to the punch, and I thought it was so Phil could get the credit for HIS design, not you. WTF?

  • The other wood fins I gave you to glass that I never got back... so I can finish them up myself.
  • Skil Drill @ Warrens?
  • Extention Cords @ Warrens and anything else out there that is mine?
  • Futures K2 fins that you hooked Raymond up with on his nice new Maus 9'4" Quad?
  • Wave Logo that you "borrowed" that is now on your "NEW LOGOS and t-shirts? Nice one!
  • Garage door opener?

I can’t and won’t work for free, so my account of what I have already given you for compensation should be fair for the stuff I asked you to leave behind in the shop and whatever else you decide to leave behind. Whether you accept it or not is your call:

  • I didn’t charge you squat for shop and anyone else would have charged you rent and hazardous materials storage inside my garage and outside next to my neighbors dwellings for over a year now at a minimum of $400 per month for at least 12 months. Whether you used it every day or not, that would have run you a minimum of $4,800 anywhere else in San Diego or Orange County. I’ve done the research. I told you point blank I didn’t want any glassing going on in there back in the beginning of this partnership, but you just threw your weight around and manipulated a glass shop where my woodshop was supposed to be.
  • $200 for glassing materials that never got used – which you say really wasn’t your fault, but the neighbors and Javier’s for not allowing you to use it… They aren’t your scapegoat, bro.

  • $188.97 e-bay fee from your auction on the Weber that you told me to set @ $30,000 and then had me pull it off early. I never charged you for it... I'm a pretty damn nice guy huh?
  • 16 hours I spent building your website / blog site www.inghamsurfdesigns.blogspot.com , which @ the cheapest $25/hour rate out in the real world of things, would have cost you at least $400 from anyone else. Jeff Warner charged Joel Tudor $3000 for his and Donald Takayama $5000 for his. He was going to give me a bro-deal at $1000, so go figure out what kind of deal I gave you for free. I was just trying to help you out as a friend.
  • 5 hours I spent cutting out, planing, surforming, sanding, and fine tuning your 10 templates which @ a standard flat rate wood working fee out there in the real world, would have cost you $25/per hour anywhere else totaling $125. What? Do you think I'm your wood shop bitch or something?
  • 1 hour I spent tracing out the other fin templates and two brewer tail templates that you took when you moved a bunch of things out that one day, once again anywhere else would have cost $25. Once again, I'm not your bitch.
  • I have already reimbursed you for materials for the shop way back when we started building this thing (which I know I’ve given you at least $50). You needed the money back so ray could go out with her friends on the weekend, remember? I have kids too, dude.
  • I paid you $60 for the pin lines and $258 for the Frye’s. Sugar Mill is cheaper than you, and they would have glassed the right fins on the right board, just like I wrote on the masking tape to the keels that went on the 5'10".
  • I spent a full work week of 40 hours + taking dimensions on your 8’10”, doing the ribs and rocker, making paper rocker rib templates, building a making a rail contour tool that took me two days to design and build, building a rocker jig… but I won’t even go there. Paul Jensen wanted 10% for his idea, and you want to take all the credit for yourself... so go build your own hollow boards. I'm not your framer. I build my own boards. I love how Tommy Maus and Bobby Sakoda give you their shapes and then you put them in the computer and fine-tune the computer shapes so you can throw your own logo on them. You call yourself a shaper? Go shape your own shit!
  • If you tallied up what I stated above, that would be well over $6,607.97 in the real world where people actually charge you money for their services.

As for the Frye’s, I’m chalking all this up to a loss:

Here’s another $182.

You sit there and tell me about how all these different people have burned you in the past, and that I’m no different? What the heck do you think you are doing right now? You just burned a bridge, bro… how’s it feel?

  • Dave
18

Take the personal aspect out of it and it’s perfect…

Then sue the a$$ off him, he’s no friend…

19

People who have burned a lot of people tend to have been burned a lot themselves. It’s a cycle of self perceived and “real” victims.

20

Come to think of it. Did you learn something from him? While you were templating for him were you shown how to do that? Was he guiding you through a process that you might not have been able to figure out on your own? If so then I’d count out the wood working fees and such. If templates are an issue then make copys and be over it. No need for yet another unneeded lawsuit in the fabulous state of California as is. If you learned something from him than a dollar amount can’t really be figured in now can it. In my opinion if you were learning something then rent should be slashed. Tools templates and others should be split up. Keep one rack. Cut the templates in half. Nose or tail? Easy if you know how to make another template.