Shortened rail-length longboard (DESIGN THREAD)

General Discussion
1

I recently sold my flat bottom 9’0" because I didn’t like the way it tracked when I planed. It had a bit of vee in the back but the front rail would often hang up a bit when I stepped forward at lower speeds. I think its because the botttom was dead flat. I think some chine would have helped. So for my next version I’d like to put a bit of roll up front that goes to vee in front of the fin.

Since the 9’0 has been gone, I’ve been riding an 8’2" high-rocker swallow tail on bigger days. It has a pulled profile, hard rails running forward, domed deck foiled alot, pinched down rails, and concave > double concave > deep vee  out the back. It’s working well as a quad on curling shoulder to overhead sets. My bottom turn is feeling better, I can pigdog it a bit, and I even managed a few cutbacks this week. For me. it’s a great board for when the waves are 4-6’ strong and curling, but it’s a far cry from being a daily driver longboard. For example, on days when its multiple-swell/inconsistent and I need to chase a wave down thats hitting 30 feet away, I cant get there fast enough because this is a slow paddler. Also, on days when it’s on-shore wind and real mushy, the rails get knocked around causing it to teeter a bit. I do have a 6’9" low-rocker single fin egg that works here but sometimes I just feel too tired to paddle it around on waves like these. I suppose part of it is that we’re going into wintertime here, so all the neoprene is slowing things down, so my summer boards are less appealing. One thing I know fo sure is more length and planing surface would serve me better for these conditions. GDaddy also inspired me with Joel Tudor and his footwork, although glide is more important to me than turning ability for this longboard. These specs has been on my mind:

- Low rocker

  • Shortened rail line/straighter profile with wide point dead center

  • Flat/slight rolled bottom contour > vee starting 2/3 back, peaking just in front of single fin, then flat out the back

  • Toilet bowl nose, rounded pin tail, setup with a Greenough 9.75"  4A

  • Flat deck with minimal foiling so the rails are more full

  • Me: 5’9" @ 155#, lower intermediate skills, surfing north jersey. 

A shape like the Andreini McVee might work here but Im not sure I need a 9’0". My previous was 9’0" x 22" x 2.8" but it felt way too long for my height and weight. Maybe I should go instead with a full profile, less foiled, 8’2", using the 84SP blank? But if a 9’0" is in order. Im thinking thinner 2.7" using the relaxed rocker in the 94B blank. Would appreciate any advice…

 

2

9’0" is not too long if you want to learn the classic longboard style that JT revived. Check out Harbour website and look at the sizing/dimension charts for different models.

3

Thanks, I have been looking at them actually. I guess lately I’ve been so focused on my ideal volume/float on my mid-lengths, that I’m having trouble switching gears here. So, putting volume aside, how shall I determine the ideal dimensions for this build? For someone of my size, would you just take the thickness down as far as you can go without making the rails too thin?

4

Hey Jackaroe I see you’re not getting a lot of responses, so I’ll add my 2 cents and maybe some others more knowledgeable will jump in.  They usually do after I post, haha.

First of all, I will preface by saying I’m no expert, surfing or board building.  I’m just a backyard hack builder / designer, and an old guy surfer.

But I don’t get the fascination with exact volume numbers, and trying to find the exact right or ideal design, etc.  I see a lot of posts from guys who haven’t even built a board yet, and they’re already asking questions about volume, channels, rocker, foil, etc etc.  I feel like the modern computer design programs and the modern corporate marketing brainwashing has taken the fun and spontenaity out of building your own boards and surfing them.  People act like this is rocket science, and if one metric is off the “ideal”, your board is toast.

My philosophy, over the course of 10 years and 2 dozen homemade boards, has been to simplify volume to “a lot” or “not so much”, and just go with my gut feeling and what looks right to my eye.

Back in the days when longboards weren’t called longboards, they were just called surfboards, everyone, including women and children, rode big heavy long surfboards, rode them well, and had a blast.  Would a lighter, smaller board have been more fun?  Perhaps.  But the point is, without any preconceived ideas about ideal volume, they just rode what was available, and found a lot of joy in doing it.

Now, once you’ve built and ridden a few boards designed by eye and gut feeling, you can pick your favorite and start narrowing down the details to optimize the design for your surfing.  Fine tuning by making nuanced changes as you shape more iterations of your favorite.  Heck, at that point it would even make sense to me to scan it and start modifying it with a computer program to really hone in on the details, if that was your inclination.

Like I say, this is just my opinion as an old school old guy, let the others chime in with more technical savvy.  But I say just go with your gut, don’t overthink it, and have fun.

5

Thanks and nice of you to chime in. I only use volume numbers to get an idea of how a board will float me, but rocker and width numbers have prove to be far more useful. Althought its more fun to just wing it, I learned on my first few builds that it’s a mistake. There are people here who have been very helpful in the way they analyze those numbers, guiding me towards a better solution that feels much better in the water. For that Im very grateful. When Im shaping, the board seems to take on a life of its own. For example, after cutting rocker, thickness and rails for a new shape, the actual foiling, nose and tail start to become apparent. So far, the only thing that’s stayed absolutely fixed throughout the whole process is the length, outline/profle and fin placement. This is only the 8th or 9th board I’ve worked on and two were re-shaping older projects that I didnt like so much, taking them down to thinner versions, or re-working the rails, etc. I learned a lot by doing that because I could surf it beforehand, make one change, and then surf it again to feel exactly what it resulted in. I enjoy that iterative process.

I like to ask questions here before I purchase a blank because I’ve learned just how important it is with rocker and thickness. The times that I didnt I sometimes ended up in a pickle because a change in one feature prevented me from doing what I wanted at the other end of the board. Like one time I wanted more tail rocker than what the blank offered initially, so I cut it down, only to realize just how thin it made the tail section. Although the board still surfed, I didnt like the lack of volume out back. Had I chosen a different blank that accomodates that, I believe it would have been a better board for me. My goal with this new ride is to glide and turn with grace, on days when the waves are less critical, a situation where my current longboard, midlengths and shortboard do work, but are less than ideal. 

6

So my gut feeling would be an 8’ 8" or so by 22 - 22 1/2" about 2 7/8" thick, low rocker, 60/40 rails, foiled nicely front & back with just enough thickness for a fin box, classic mal outline, maybe pull the nose in a little if its not a noserider, wider nose with concave below if it is, panel V in the tail, single fin, shape it and go. Next iteration maybe play around with chines, adding rocker in the tail, etc.

7

Andreini’s McVee is similar in concept to a collaboration between Brian Hilbers (Fineline Surfboards) and Kirl Putnam came up with 10 years ago that they called the Hot Generation.  Those guys, along with Andreini and a handful of others were into the hull thing for many years, and Putnam was handling some of the sales of Greg Liddle’s boards.  These guys all ran in the same circles and have been working off of parallel design tracks for the last 40+ years.    Anyway, when they started off doing these, they wanted to to a refined version of the shorter Transition Era (1967-1969) shapes where the Australians first started cutting down longboards.   So when you cut the tail off a longboard you’re moving the wide point back behind center and you’re working with a wider tail block and a shorter tail rocker.  

So now the “who-as-first” on this design may or may not be arguable but the point remains, this type of board is favored by longboarders who want to break out a more agile shape when there’s a bit more energy out at their longboard spots.   As far as I can tell the main difference between the Hot Generation version (which Fineline still sells) and the Andreini version is that the widepoint in the HG is more extreme; it’s further back.   The Andreini version is still a wide point back design with a 9" wide tailblock but the widepoint is only ~4" behind center.   

I’ve made several of the HG type boards and that’s what I use in the way of midlengths.   I favor wide point back because I want to surf the board off the tail and turn it.  These designs run the finbox forward of what a normal egg shape does, at about 8", so you’re running the fin forward and using a 9" or 10" flex fin.       

Now a comment on use; these boards are aimed at larger longboard conditions up to head high or so, not fast breaking and dumping conditions.   They’re half-hull, half egg and carry a low tail rocker (like 2") and a moderate nose rocker (4")   Personally, I run my nose rockers a little shorter on these because I don’t need that much nose rocker in those conditions.  The low tail rocker + wide tail block adds some drama to making the drop on a fast wave but it works great on softer waves and they trim really well.   They’re not designed to noseride but if you’re light enough you can sneak forward.    Andreini’s variant is probably a little easier to do that, but will probably be a little less agile off the tail.    

Wide point back designs tend to be more finicky about your paddling position and your timing for your transitions so I wouldn’t start a novice surfer off of one of these, but for the longboarders who can already do that and are interested in surfing the wave with more top to bottom, 1969-style, I think this is a great design.   Hilbers/Putnam’s original version was 8-4, so the link below is similar to what that board looked like:

 

 https://mollusksurfshop.com/collections/surfboards/products/85-fineline-hot-generation

 

8

For blanks, I watched a vid some years back where Hilbers shaped one of these boards.  I can’t remember exactly whether the blank he used was a 8-9Y or a 9-3Y blank but it was one of the two,…  In any case, he did it just like they supposedly did back in the day when they only had longboard blanks to use.  He cut off about 10" off the tail and proceeded from there .  That effectively moves the apex of the rocker under the widepoint and leaves a short tail rocker. 

The SP blanks can yield similar end numbers on the rocker, and they’ll work, but the rocker curve is a little different.    After I saw Hilbers do it the right way I followed that, just like I did with (most of) the rest of his design.   

So if you’re going to do something similar to Andreini’s McVee I think an SP blank could work but you might have to be mindful of running the template a couple inches forward to get the tailblock width you want.  Or, get one of the Yater blanks and run your template a couple inches foward of center in order to move it back on your board.   The length you are aiming for will probably play a factor as to which blank you use and which rocker adjustments may be necessary.  

9

I agree with gdaddy I would go with the 8-9 Y Yater blank from US Blanks if it were my project (shown is the YX which is the thicker version)

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If I overlay the template off that screen grab onto the 8-9Y it fits nicely with the wide point at the middle of the blank’s center.   You might have to order it with a little shorter tail rocker if you want the finished rocker to end up at 2" because at 6" from the tail the stock rocker for the blank is at 2.3/8"

 

 

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11

> 2 7/8"

Curious how you arrived at that number,  expected less because Im light. Is it because it’d put the rails a little bit up out of the water, reducing drag, when Im paddling?

> panel V in the tail

Where would you start, peak, and end the v?

12

> these boards are aimed at larger longboard conditions up to head high or so, not fast breaking and dumping conditions

This may not be the right shape then. It’s fair to say that NJ rarely delivers large longboard conditions. Summer is usually 1-3’ small and clean. Winter is usually larger, 3-6’ but fast breaking, dumping, or crumbling. My 8’2 already handles the larger fast breakng/dump waves. I think this new board should be for 3-6’, mushy and or crumbling AND the smaller summer days. I suppose this points me towards a more traditional longboard build? If so, Im thinking of using the rocker already designed into one of the blanks?

> I wouldn’t start a novice surfer off of one

From what understand, Im lower intermediate. Im alright with position, can drop in on overhead sets, bottom turns, and some cutbacks here and there. Am I still considered a novice?

13

> that effectively moves the apex of the rocker under the widepoint and leaves a short tail rocker

Shorter as in the height of the tail rocker and also the length of board space that it spans? I like the sounds of this actually. My first longboard build had both the rocker apex and wide point more forward. I always felt like I had to stand too far forward to get it to turn. Regarding shortened tail rocker, is it correct to say this? (1)  this allows me to stand a bit further back, like right over the fin, to turn, then walking up when I want speed. And (2) I could position my chest a bit further back when paddling because there’s more foam back there now, and (3) the tail would be sitting a bit higher up in the water when paddling because there’s more foam towards the rear half, and this reduces drag, making it paddle a bit faster

14

I have a problem with this whole thread.  I see no pics of the original flat bottom V 9’ that you reference.  Hard to think of where you should go next with out a reference.

15

I don’t like to go much thinner on a longboard. You can take foam out when you foil, or dome the deck, but I like to keep pretty close to 3" in the stringer, thats just my gut feeling on strength & flex. I have seen 8’ plus boards at 2 1/2" thick, so you have to decide whats gonna feel right to you.

I’d start the V about 3/4 back.

I’m just answering your questions, but you can look at other longboards you have liked and take notes. Go with what feels / looks right to you.

16

Good point, attached are pics. I should note that this was one of my very first builds, 18 months ago. I would have shaped the rails much different if I knew then what I know now. It was originally a 9’6" but I got tired of the length. I know you guys dont like the concept of “re-shaping” but when Corona started I couldnt order blanks and I got bored. So I chopped 6" from the nose, skinned the top, brought the thickness down from 3.1" to 2.8" and reshaped the rails. Rode it a few times and it was better but I still didnt like it, I suppose that brought the wide point way forward. So I put it up on facebook marketplace and was shocked when it sold. Buyer texted me two weeks later saying he really likes it, said it was fast. Go figure, maybe he’s a bette surfer than me. Anyway, ocker measurements from the final stage when I sold it are below. I’ll post illustratations of my new plan once I get some other responses as it looks like the profile I chose may not be right for me.

N         3.6"

N12     1.5"

T12     2.3"

T         3.9"   

V started right behind middle section of board, ending right in front of fin box, flat out the back

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17

My biggest fail in the last few years was a singlefin midlength that I did with a dead flat bottom fading into a light vee.  It was an experiment.  I was trying to get a lively and quick releasing board that would run fast when I had it in trim.  I’ve used that bottom before with shortboards and it makes for a lively board.  It worked for this board, too, but it ended up being too much of a good thing.   It ran too much on top of the wave and was skittish and a bit twitchy when I’m applying subtle inputs, whereas I am accustomed to a smoother and more controllable ride on those types of boards.    I’d step forward to trim and it was fast but it felt skatey instead of smooth.   

I could have salvaged the board by adding sidefins and surfing it more actively like a shortboard but I had a mommy AND a daddy so I don’t do the HPLB thing.   So I handed it off to a friend of a relative who’s lazy and uses boards like that to rack up mass wavecounts among the shortboarders.   

 

 

18

Thanks for the sanity check GDaddy, so far Im hearing my idea would yield: finicky paddling position and transitions…runs too much on top of the wave…skittish and a bit twitchy…aimed at larger longboard conditions up to head high, not for a novice. (gulp) Before doing anything else, I should visit shops to look more closely at the 8’6-9’0" boards folks are shaping here

 

19

My suggestion is to use what makes sense to you and discard the rest, whether it’s a little or a lot.  I write reports for a living so that’s why I write the way I do.  I’m not trying to tell you what to do but I am throwing more ideas out there for you to consider.    

I wouldn’t get too starstruck by the boards you see in the shops, either, especially when you’re looking at boards other than the retail shortboards and longboards.  Shops carry midlengths to sell to noobs but unfortunately most of those midlengths aren’t really set up for the types of riders who would buy one.  

It’s fairly difficult to find a vid of someone surfing a retail midlength with any degree of competency.  You can find vids of surfers surfing certain customs really well but those boards aren’t set up like the boards you’ll find on the rack at your average SuperSurferMegaStore.   I saw a MacTavish vid for one of their midlenghts and the guy was ripping on it, except that board was a much smaller size than what they sell in their stock dimensions.   I’m sure that sufer could rip on one of their stock boards, but that’s not the kind of guy who would typically buy one of those boards.  

Here’s a vid of Devon Howard (who is an expert longboarder) surfing a midlength 2+1 at Swamis (Encinitas, CA).     When they’re set up well these boards will outsurf what most of their surfers are capable of.   You and I are not at Devon Howard’s level of surfing, so a board like that isn’t going to hold either of us back.    

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dluK_xeL-9E

Check out his stance and footwork.  He basically plants his front foot and moves his rear foot forward to trim and pump, and back (directly over his main fin) when he wants to really crank a turn.  So he’s moving around a little, but not nearly as much as he would on a longboard where he’s noseriding.   The board has some rocker but not a whole lot.   

20

Great video, and yes, that’s the kind of mid-length riding I’d like to do. But to your earlier comment, even when it is “good”, NJ surf is usually much faster and dumping. My 8’2" works pretty well in those conditions, so the new 8’6-9’0 would be for smaller, more graceful summer waves and maybe some crumble. Here’s a local NJ shaper and his boilerplate longboard, pic on the left. I think this 9’0 x 22 1/2 x 2 ¾ might be a good starting point? The mid point is 2" in front of center and the rail line is somewhat straight because of the square off tail. He’s got it set up with flat entry rocker and some tail kick for turning.On the right side is another NJ shaper with the same shape but with the nose pulled in a bit and the wide point at center. I like the looks of this one better.

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