I remember a conversation awhile back concerning sidecut, like a snowboard, in surfboard rails. Just wondering what anybody knows about how they react in the water. Morey uses them in the swizzle I noticed, and it seems Tom thinks outside the box when it comes to surfcraft design. Could they possibly be utilized in a more advanced application? Thanks- gill
speaking of the swizzle, somebody should shape an exact replica out of the normal polyurethane foam and fiberglass and see how it rides compared to the real swizzle>>> I remember a conversation awhile back concerning sidecut, like a > snowboard, in surfboard rails. Just wondering what anybody knows about how > they react in the water. Morey uses them in the swizzle I noticed, and it > seems Tom thinks outside the box when it comes to surfcraft design. Could > they possibly be utilized in a more advanced application? Thanks- gill
speaking of the swizzle, somebody should shape an exact replica out of the > normal polyurethane foam and fiberglass and see how it rides compared to > the real swizzle If someone send me a swizzle, I’ll do my best regards, Håvard
speaking of the swizzle, somebody should shape an exact replica out of the > normal polyurethane foam and fiberglass and see how it rides compared to > the real swizzle On the swizzle web page, Y has some Poly prototype pics with one of the original Poly prototypes for sale.
I remember a conversation awhile back concerning sidecut, like a > snowboard, in surfboard rails. Just wondering what anybody knows about how > they react in the water. Morey uses them in the swizzle I noticed, and it > seems Tom thinks outside the box when it comes to surfcraft design. Could > they possibly be utilized in a more advanced application? Thanks- gill Sidecut is used to keep the edge engaged while the snowboard or ski is bent into a arc. That allows the rider to carve a turn without skidding. So if you want sidecut on a surfboard to work the same way, you’ll have to have the board flex tip to tail. The problem is that a ski or snowboard does not over-flex when its on the flats because the entire platform is supported by snow (a rather inflexible medium if you hit it at 30 mph!). Water is very flexable so when a flexible surfboard is planing, the weight of the rider will cause the middle to sink (or over-flex) and the board will slow. If you could solve the over-flex problem, sidecut surfboards might be the answer to finless turns. (The obvious answer is to keep the stringer stiff and just flex the rails) Maybe this is what Y was after in the beginning but I think that he is using the recurve to loosen up the craft. He doen’t advertise the recurve as a turning aid. Its more of a weight saving device. The one ski application I want to try next is leverage. Most skis use wedges to lift the rider higher off the platform. The higher center of gravity results in less effort to turn (to a point anyway). Its the same principle you feel when riding prone vs. standing. Try turning a surfboard while you are laying down. Pretty tough, huh? Kneeling makes it a little easier. Stand up and its very easy. What about taking a rather stiff design and raising the deck several inches. Will that loosen up the turns? Or will it make rail to rail changes so slow you lose any advantage… Good question. Newbs
Newbs- That is an interesting thought. How about using the packing foam the electronics industry uses for shipping, best know in our circles for making incredibly good sanding blocks. This stuff could be attached to your deck easily, is waterproof and would give you the “step up” you are looking for. Hmm…could make that hard to tune board into something special. Tom S.>>> Sidecut is used to keep the edge engaged while the snowboard or ski is > bent into a arc. That allows the rider to carve a turn without skidding. > So if you want sidecut on a surfboard to work the same way, you’ll have to > have the board flex tip to tail. The problem is that a ski or snowboard > does not over-flex when its on the flats because the entire platform is > supported by snow (a rather inflexible medium if you hit it at 30 mph!). > Water is very flexable so when a flexible surfboard is planing, the weight > of the rider will cause the middle to sink (or over-flex) and the board > will slow. If you could solve the over-flex problem, sidecut surfboards > might be the answer to finless turns. (The obvious answer is to keep the > stringer stiff and just flex the rails)>>> Maybe this is what Y was after in the beginning but I think that he is > using the recurve to loosen up the craft. He doen’t advertise the recurve > as a turning aid. Its more of a weight saving device.>>> The one ski application I want to try next is leverage. Most skis use > wedges to lift the rider higher off the platform. The higher center of > gravity results in less effort to turn (to a point anyway). Its the same > principle you feel when riding prone vs. standing. Try turning a surfboard > while you are laying down. Pretty tough, huh? Kneeling makes it a little > easier. Stand up and its very easy. What about taking a rather stiff > design and raising the deck several inches. Will that loosen up the turns? > Or will it make rail to rail changes so slow you lose any advantage…>>> Good question.>>> Newbs
Does the “422” Hap Jacobs model qualify as a “side cut” model? It had forward “wings” with a squeezed in template behind the wings. Steve Walden made some boards with nose wings AND tail wings resulting in a relatively narrow waist. There have been reports of longboards in Australia that featured a “coke bottle” template. I thought it had more to do with the theory that once the water flow had negotiated the forward rail and outline curve, the narrow portion of the template offered less flow resistance and in the case with Walden’s boards, that you trimmed on the wings rather than burying the entire rail? In any case, I’m not sure that the snowboard/ski theories apply - when put on edge, the narrower sidecut edge slips while the nose and tail edges grip resulting in mid flex - creating rocker when turning. In the case of a snowboard, mounting the bindings close together will focus your weight in the center making this work even better.
Your thoughts on leverage reminded me of a question I posted a while back on a board I saw with a concave deck. At the time I thought it might be aid for flex, but was instructed by the good people on this site that it is a means to increase pressure on the rail when turning (harder turns with less effort). A good example was given about standing in a bathtub. A bathtub has a concave bottom and if you lean out toward the edge of the tub you can feel an increase in pressure on your toes or heels (depending on which way you are facing or which way you lean). Maybe this could be your solution to increasing leverage/pressure on the rails without having to build up an area on the deck? That way you won’t feel so removed from the feel of the board planing on the water? Just a thought. On the original post some dismissed the theory by saying that all they got out of it was a board with a bird bath, but most who had tried had nothing but good things to say about the concept.
In the case of a snowboard, mounting the bindings close together > will focus your weight in the center making this work even better. I think this is one of the most underrated aspects of tuning a snowboard to the rider. Well observed. regards, Håvard
Sidecut is used to keep the edge engaged while the snowboard or ski is > bent into a arc. That allows the rider to carve a turn without skidding. > So if you want sidecut on a surfboard to work the same way, you’ll have to > have the board flex tip to tail. The problem is that a ski or snowboard > does not over-flex when its on the flats because the entire platform is > supported by snow (a rather inflexible medium if you hit it at 30 mph!). Most cheap snowboards overflex when you push them so it’s perfectly possibly to overflex a flexible board on a hard surface. This is ofcourse due to the way a snowboard with a sidecut distributes pressure. Same would apply to an extremly soft surfcraft with a sidecut. However, water would apply pressure to more of the surface of a surfcraft and thus a the pressure would be more evenly distributed. When a snowboard is in a turn all the pressure goes into the engaged edge that flex from the two points of contact(high points of the edge near nose and tail) until the whole edge is in contact with the snow. Because of the way this pressure is applied to the edge on a snowboard and the way a surfboards pressure is applied more to the surface of the boards bottom a surfboard with the same amount of flex as a snowboard would propably not flex very much in a turn.>>> Water is very flexable so when a flexible surfboard is planing, the weight > of the rider will cause the middle to sink (or over-flex) and the board > will slow. Still, you can carve water with a snowboard if you have enough speed when entering the water. Same goes for a snowboard in powder. I really think that a snowboard doesn’t really flex much if at all in powder, the turn is a function of weight at the rear end of the board(and maybe sidecut). However, think about a modern shortboard. It’s already overflexed with heavy rocker, going in a straight line it’s slow. A flexible surfboard cannot possibly be any worse.>>>If you could solve the over-flex problem, sidecut surfboards > might be the answer to finless turns. Take a new, good, stiff snowboard and flex it. It stops dead after flexing nose and tail only a few inches. The flex is very well engineered. Same kind of flex could be applied to a surfboard.>>>(The obvious answer is to keep the stringer stiff and just flex the rails) This does not work on snowboards so why would it work on a surfboard? Torsion stiffness is key to snowboard handling. Last time I had a look at waterskies there were several skies with fair amount of sidecut but definitly not much flex(molded glass with foamcore or 1/4" plywood) I also assume that the skies from the skiing revolution when the sidecut was introduced had very little flex(made of solid pine) and was ridden in powder. I believe that sidecut have a function even without the flex found in mothern skies and snowboards.>>> Maybe this is what Y was after in the beginning but I think that he is > using the recurve to loosen up the craft. He doen’t advertise the recurve > as a turning aid. Its more of a weight saving device.>>> The one ski application I want to try next is leverage. Most skis use > wedges to lift the rider higher off the platform. The higher center of > gravity results in less effort to turn (to a point anyway). If your thinking of carving plates the reason they are there are not to increase leverage, they’re there to keep the boots from touching the snow when doing an extreme carve. Moving the center of gravity 1" up is IMHO insignificant(goes with the weight difference of riding on a full/empty stomach). regards, Håvard
However, think about a modern shortboard. It’s already overflexed with > heavy rocker, going in a straight line it’s slow. A flexible surfboard > cannot possibly be any worse.>>> Last time I had a look at waterskies there were several skies with fair > amount of sidecut but definitly not much flex(molded glass with foamcore > or 1/4" plywood) I also assume that the skies from the skiing > revolution when the sidecut was introduced had very little flex(made of > solid pine) and was ridden in powder. I believe that sidecut have a > function even without the flex found in mothern skies and snowboards.>>> If your thinking of carving plates the reason they are there are not to > increase leverage, they’re there to keep the boots from touching the snow > when doing an extreme carve. Moving the center of gravity 1" up is > IMHO insignificant(goes with the weight difference of riding on a > full/empty stomach).>>> regards,>>> Håvard Håvard, Yes, one of the basic differences between water and snow relates back to edge control. For example, a finless surfcraft can hold an edge extremely well with a minimum of surface penetration, if it draws the water up around it through increased velocity and low pressure drag, as is the case with typical bodyboard rails, or the softly rounded, automatically conforming outer pontoons of a surfmat. In contrast, if a snowboard has fat, rounded edges, the result is total loss of edge control, because its steel edges must be sharp in order to function properly. Another approach is to realistically assess one
s readily accessable waves, and consider the limited number of variables a person has to work with in regards to surfcraft... basically its a closed system. You can identify which factors are essential and then move forward from there. Aside from the surfcraft itself and what its composed of, the other major element in the equation is the rider. Despite its advantages, standing on a moving surfboard offers the least amount of actual sensory contact, requiring a number of design changes to compensate. Generally speaking, higher levels of performance and speed are directly linked to the operators lowered center of gravity and increased surface contact at a designs control points. Imagine where modern snowboarding or skiing would be without bindings... or sailboarding! The issue of leverage aside, the fact is that most motion sports recognize that after a certain base velocity, all control and the maneuvers that are impossible without that speed, are intimately tied to firm surface contact... and solid, increased surface contact is what allows the best edge control. Hey.... didnt Nat Young have big feet? Dale