Slightly OT - anyone do boats in the 16'-25' range?

Been looking at a few boats. We’ve got some spots without good road or trail access, my kids love to fish, my wife knows how to pull crab pots, and I have a little time these days. Not talking yachts & gin & tonics, here, but suitable bluewater barebones things with reliable outboards. Center consoles or front windows, not cabins. Lots of space on the back end for pots, rods, and - of course - surfboards.

My wife grew up on the water in the PNW, and all her family sports aluminums now. From 14’ Lunds with 9.8’s to 22’ Alumawelds with 135 Mercs. But they never have very far to go, trailer around a lot, and like to sip fuel. Baja in the winter.

Some other guys I know prefer the heavier offshore fiberglass stuff like Whalers, Grady’s, Davis Boats, C-Dorys, because they can put in the miles and not feel it in their backs for the next week, although the fuel consumption is a lot higher.

I’m looking used - well used - not retail, so pricing’s mostly engine-dependent, rather than hull-specific.

Its not really surprising that the two categories break down so much like handmade pu/pe vs. popout epoxy: Heavier, more maintenance, better feel & glide, harder to power vs. lighter, chatter, corky, easier maintenance but prone to dramatic failure, easier to power. (Sounds familiar, eh? I knew I could bring it back around to surfing :slight_smile: )

So - if you’ve got experience, let me know. PM is fine, although there’s always a chance others are interested as well. Better to go small, cheap, lean & mean, or go bigger, faster, and room for more people (i.e. is is really a party, or mostly usually just you & a buddy or two)? Better to go aluminum for the cost savings, fuel savings, easy trailering, or go glass for the ride & glide (& emergency flotation)? Leave it in the water all the time, leave it at the dock but on the trailer, or park it in your driveway? 4-person max with a 70hp (used, around $6-7K and much cheaper to operate) or 8-person max with a 150 (Used, 10-20K but better value retention) ?

What are you seeing out there in Hawaii, the Channel Islands, San Diego, Texas, Puget Sound, Florida, New Zealand…? What have you been on, or what do you use yourself? Glass would be great because dings are dings and I don’t know how to weld aluminum :slight_smile:

Many thanks.

Hi Benny,

I don’t know anything about boats except I appreciate them and their foils the same way I love to look at surfboards. I’d love to find something in the same category you are looking, but fear I may be too old to learn the ‘ropes’ so to speak and be safe out here with my wife and kids. I figure it take at least 10 years of concentrated effort to get good at anything worth learning to do. Longer with job and family responsibilities. Pretty rough this part of the Pacific as you know. Not like So Cal at all. Some of the little Greeno inspired surf/fishing boats look killer, though. And, using wind energy instead stinking gas/diseal would be unreal. Hope it works for you. Come pick me up if it does. Building something from that last piece of eps we bought. Finally. Mike

There is one guy I’ve seen in the SB harbor that goes up the coast to fish in a little aluminum boat and a small outboard. He’s a hard fisherman and works the conditions well. It’s nice down here now, but I haven’t checked boats out in a while. Craigslist is always on going. Most of my friends have the heavier boats for the island runs. Fuel is a big issue these days.

Yep, fuel is almost more than Chiropractic these days. :slight_smile: And yes, Craigslist is a buyer’s market for sure.

Rooster, I’ll be happy to come get you, but don’t sell yourself short. My dad was a Navy guy, I’ve been in boats my whole life, and they’re all the same in a way, including surfboards. First time you paddle out at a new spot, do you try to read waves, people, or water.

I’ve paddled out with you on a big, unpredictable day. My guess is, you read water. Every boil, peak, flat spot, foam slick, and wide-swinging set tells a story of swell, wind, and what’s on the bottom. Its no different out past the lineup. Read the currents, choose the safer sets, keep 2/3 in reserve. And don’t trust anyone else to do your basic maintenance :slight_smile:

Those basic rules kept me gainfully employed as a whitewater guide for almost a decade, despite no previous freshwater experience. And they’d work for you, too. If I end up finding anything I like, you’ll get a call :slight_smile:

Hi Benny,

You could say I know a little about 'em, and I definitely have preferences.

Now, light and fast is nifty, except that light and fast means they are lousy seaboats and if you need to carry a load you’re …ahm, I think ‘screwed’ covers it. Let alone if the weather goes to hell all of a sudden, as it does.

First off, avoid cathedral hulls like Whalers and similar as if they would give you leprosy. They are miserable in a head sea and have the handling characteristics in a seaway or a breeze of a drunken shoebox.

Avoid foam-core, again like whalers ( whalers really suck, y’know? Good, lets make sure everybody knows it. Advertising budget does not equal quality) , Carolina Skiffs and similar. They can be lightweight, but even a pinhole means it takes on water and gets heavy and delams. Sound familiar? Right. And fixing 'em and getting all the wet out is just about as much of a forlorn hope. Though balsa-core is even worse.

Solid glass, preferably hand laid woven roving, that’s the way to go…except welded aluminum is quite nice indeed.

Don’t worry so much about dings in aluminum, by the way, or glass. Boats are not only built a lot heavier ( or should be) than surfboards, there should be lots more room to work in. The hairy spots are in harbors, where the other boats ae, plus piers and so on. Oh, and welding AL with MIG is more getting the right gear than anything else. Nice thing about aluminum is that if ya hit something, ya can mostly beat it back out. If you need to, usually welded AL involves 1/4" plate, and it takes some effort to ding that.

Like I said, light and fast isn’t too good, especially if you plan on carrying stuff ( like crab pots or people ) and operating in the open sea. Heavier, rounded chine means you won’t beat yourself up too much in chop. A deeper vee hull is often much the same way.

See what all the hotshots have? You know, the ones trailering their boats behind the $50,000 four door un-trucks? Boats that have about as much power as a jet fighter aircraft? They are idiots, so take careful note of what they have and make sure your boat has nothing in common with that.

Instead, see what the local commercial fishermen are using in similar uses. That’s what you want, a boat that’ll work for you day in and day out. Ask the local commercial fishermen what’s good and bad about what they are using.

Now, as for power. Best, of course, is inboard diesel. Then there is a long, long gap and then you get to medium-sized ( less than 80 HP or so) four-stroke outboards. Bigger than 80 HP, you should have an inboard. Then, medium sized two-stroke outboards. A two stroke, well, at less than 3/4 throttle or so a two stroke is wasting half its fuel. Might be better with some of the new ones, but still, the life of a two stroke engine is less than half that of a four-stroke with equal maintainance. For what it’s worth, 4 stroke outboards are a lot torquier than 2 strokes of the same rated power, so use smaller engines.

What make is best? Ask locally, as it’s all about who sells and services them locally. Some lousy motors can be kept sweet by a good mechanic and vice versa. Oh, and don’t ask 50 Grand Truck Idiot, he thinks spending big bucks is the same as good.

You will note that I don’t mention inboard-outboards above. They are miserable things. Like an outboard, all the weight is on the stern, so in a following sea life gets…interesting. Engine access ain’t so great, cramped into the stern. The gears and linkage and so on - well, as bad as any outboard. No keel at all, so they love to broach. And what keeps the water out of that big-ass hole in the stern the thing sticks through is a rubber membrane, which gets old and cracks and oh dearie me, can ya tread water?. Oh, and the only disadvantage of the straight inboard engine: you can’t easily pluck it off the boat and take it to the mechanic, that is shared by the inboard-outboard. Executive summary: ya don’t want one.

Jet drives…real useful if you are going fast in shallow water. Otherwise, no conceivable use except for our pal 50K Truck Idiot who has to have the latest and greatest.

Center consoles- I have been working with one of those of late, and I hate it with a passion. It is smack in the middle of the work deck and it’s only function is ‘Hey, lookit me, I have a steering wheel like a real boat’ but it’s not. Routing the controls is a hassle, either on or diving down under the deck. Shelter from the elements? Nil. Ease of working around the thing? Negative. Consoles suck. You are better off with a tiller outboard than a console, as is borne out by a guy who has a boat with an identical hull, tiller outboard ( of half the horsepower) and no stinkin’ console. He has a nice boat.

You want something either open or else with a forward covered area, like a workboat. It leaves the stern free for fishing, gear and people.

Oh, and what do I have? It’s similar to http://www.easternboats.com/boats/eastern_18.php, but no f***ing console. You will note that the company suggests at least a 50 HP Honda, which is asinine, the boat goes fine with a 25 and I currently am very happy with a 30 horse two stroke. It’ll carry a ton, literally, in calm water.

Hope that’s of use

doc…

Hi Benny -

Doc spends a lot of time on boats as does your long lost “brother” from Alameda.

In spite of their being a foam core, Whalers seem to hold resale value better than a lot of other brands. The marketing campaign to which Doc refers seems to have reached most of the population and many used boat buyers seem to think they are alright.

Galvanized trailers are good.

A professional mechanical check of the engine is a good idea. Signs of external corrosion may mean internal corrosion as well. A simple “leak down” test can be a good indicatior of engine condition… similar to a compression test, the spark plugs are removed and air injected into the compression chamber. A gauge registers initial compression and how long it holds after the air line is shut off. A basic electrical test can determine if it is charging and if it has a good spark.

Adequate ground tackle and knowing how to use it is important if you plan to anchor outside the surf zone. I’ve heard of boats dragging anchor and getting into trouble. I’ve even heard of boats disappearing after being left at anchor overnight.

Heck, you probably know all that already.

As John says, the whalers hold the price better than some. Which means you’ll pay more for a whaler than another boat in equivalent condition with equivalent gear. As I now have boats that I’ll have for the rest of my life, I’m pretty much set on paying less and not worrying about what happens after I croak.

Also- cathedral hulls in general. When you are going into a head sea with a headwind, the bow lifts. Especially at speed. Then it lifts too much. Buddy of mine spent most of a December day on top of one of those unsinkable hulls when his flipped. It’s nice that it didn’t sink, yeah, but it might have been nicer if the effing thing didn’t flip. Especially here in New England. Water gets kinda chilly.

Other boat stuff:

Like John said- ground tackle, mated to the kind of bottom you are dealing with. Here it’s soft bottom, mud and sand, so a Danforth type or a plough is good. But hard bottom, rock or coral or what have ya, then you want a fisherman type anchor, the others just bounce off 'em. And lots of line, and some chain.

And with that, decent sized cleats and skene chocks and fairleads and all - most boats come with cheap, cheezy junk that will snap at the first opportunity. Which is when you need it badly.

Electrical stuff. I have been a boat carpenter for - well, a long time. My advice to boat buyers is to rip out every wire in the craft and replace with newer and heavier wire. Between corrosion and previous owners bright ideas and monkey-grade wiring work, it’ll crap out on you. Better to replace and upgrade immediately.

Electronics- look, GPS is lovely. You can even ( and I have) download free software that will work with downloadable free charts from NOAA and the nice little GPS unit that comes with MS Streets and Trips. I did, and it works well. Radar, also good. Depth sounder, the same. Personally, I should learn more about NMEA 0183 interfaces and have a laptop on board for damn near all of it all in one, that’s what the big boys are doing nowadays.

But that only supplements a good, adjusted compass, paper charts, good binoculars and having a clue where you are. One little transistor goes poof and you’re back to Columbus’ methods. Scream at people who put metal or electronics near compasses.

Radios, plural. Your cell phone is probably digital, so the range is maybe under ten miles before it’s a paperweight. The older analog bag phones were better in that respct, buddy of mine called the coast guard when his offshore boat caught fire and he had to abandon with his crew. The cell phone people actually had a little ceremony, and shortly therafter discontinued analog service in the area. VHF radio has some range to it and everybody monitors it. As for brands, I have never heard anybody complain about ICOMs.

Gear stowage is far, far more important than you’d think. It neads to be accessible, fast. It needs to be secure when the boat goes boomp boomp in de big ol ocean. It needs to be , well, obvious, so you can do a sight inventory fast and mindless, to keep yourself supplied.

And safe. In the commercial fishing biz, you work with dangerous gear. I screamed at a kid the other day about leaving a big stainless hook on deck point up - as in “Hey, kid, what the f##k do ya think will happen if you step on that or fall on that, huh? Your mommy will NOT be here to fix the boo-boo, f##khead, and it’s a half hour to the f##king rescue squad AFTER the f##king tide comes in and we can get outta here. STOW THE F##KING THING RIGHT!” You will notice I tend towards repetition. It drives, pardon the expression, the point home. I have seen too many guys hurt or killed due to sloppy seamanship or sloppy maintainance. It’s easy enough to get hurt if ya do it all right, anything less than that and it really gets spooky.

I don’t have a lot of use for life jackets. Here, the water temp will kill ya all too quick. Survival suits can be picked up used and cheap, and they will keep you alive and with all your digits in colder water. Wetsuits too.

Outboard motors are unreliable. Friend of mine drifted 300 miles or so one summer, Cape Cod to northern Maine. Have iron rations and water aboard.

Likewise, it’s amazing how wonderful food is on a boat. Grill is nice, stovetop too. A lousy can of Dinty Moore beef stew can be heaven on earth, hot on a foggy day.

Anyhow, speaking of all this, I gotta go. Tide is not gonna wait on me.

Hope that’s of some use

doc…

Depending on your budget and how much time you have you might want to consider an alternative and build your own. I’ve not run one, but George Caulkins’ Bartender design has received excellent write-ups for seaworthiness, particularly on the West Coast. USCG used 'em as the standard inshore patrol boat there for a few years in the late 50’s and early 60’s. It seems to meet your functional criteria. FAQ:

http://www.bartenderboats.com/faqs.html

There are even partial kits available for the 19 and 22-footers now:

http://www.bartenderboats.com/19-foot-kits.html

-Samiam

P.S. Around here, Whalers are overpriced by approximately a factor of two in terms of capability. It’s not uncommon to see a well-abused 13-footer with motor listed for $5,000.

The Bartender looks like a very cool boat! I’m thinking I might have enough room in my side yard to build one of those some day :wink:

HI Benny,

I’d say give Dennis Choate a call. He did that boat for Phil Edwards (Neato?) If he doesn’t give you the info you need I’m sure he could put you in touch with someone who could- maybe even Phil Edwards or Mickey Munoz. They’re all surfer/boat nuts and will understand your needs.

denchomarine.com

(562) 432-3487

If it’s a project you want, you’d be hard pressed to beat this. Refab the transom and mount a newer outboard(?) Sheesh, the trailer alone is maybe worth the asking price.

17ft Greenough- Anderson is an incredible boat for the money.Go out in any weather fast and safe. Need more boat the 21’ is a go anywhere boat.Whalers are built cheaply and delam, I have had 3 of them .Maybe buy an Anderson hull and finish yourself?

Benny, I’ve got a lot of experience with sailboats in that range, some experience with skiffs. Keep it simple in the beginning so you can change course from what you thought was going to be the way to go at first. Being amongst the action at the fishing spots or where your desires are show what type of rigs are actually truly doing it. If you’ve got enouph dough to tackle owning a boat you’ve probably got enouph dough to rent what you think might be so wonderful for your needs, rent boats to try them out. I like handy lightweight small boats but don’t have enouph exerience really to say exactly for skiffs. The 16-18’ bigger aluminum skiffs look nice to me, 14’ aluminum are ok for 2 people. 4 and 6 cylinder in/out drives are economical, 2 stroke out boards are super expensive for fuel and maintenance, don’t know details about 4 strokes but users love’em. There are a lot of 16, 18, 20’ foot bigger run abouts built in the 70’s 80’s that recondition nicely if you want a project. Caution for low transoms, the following sea like to sink those things when they’re stalled stern to the sea.

I agree, very nice boats, great sea boats and safe while performing well without silly huge motors. A 40 horse four stroke would be ideal.

http://www.bartenderboats.com/video.html - look at them handle, and handle in a breaking sea rivermouth type situation. If for some masochistic reason I was to go small boat codfishing again, the 19’ version would be at the top of my list.

Anybody with a bandsaw and a few other low-end tools could easily build one. Or a bandsaw and a 200 amp MIG welder, out of aluminum plate… in fact , another old boatbuilder, friend of mine who wound up loftsman at the Campbell Shipyards, he was looking very fondly at Bartenders in AL.

Dammit, Sam, here I was thinking I had all the boats I needed…

doc…

Nice rounded pin on the Bartenders. Mike

anderson boats out of santa barbara.they make some really nice boats in the range you are looking for…