soft & hard integration

General Discussion
1

With all this talk of boards(hydroepic/bisect) with air/valves, and the new growth of the high tech mat surfing of greenough and dale solomonson(?), I’ve been pondering a concept that’s been in the back of my mind about for decades.

It appears that some of the highest(non-hydroplane)speeds are attained when the surface experiencing contact with the water is pliable and “in tune” with the surface dynamics caused by the water flowing by.

When I was a young college grem in the 70’s studying Physical Oceanography I did alot of reading on the porpoise swim speed research being done by those in Marine Biology. It seemed that the porpoise skin contained an external layer that was very pliable to surface pressure allowing water to flow along it’s torso in the pathway of least resistance. Granted the beast is basically one huge muscle with a monster propeller, but the skin analysis always kept me wondering, especially when Morey came out with his boogie board material.

Seems like everyones been trying to make the top soft and bottom hard, I’ve always wondered why no one went the other way. (I know Surflight is trying something different)

Seems like you could do a couple of things:

  1. find a very pliable boogie board like material and adhere it to the bottom of a regular board or…

  2. adhere a solomonson rubber mat with it’s channeled bottom that could be inflated to varying pressure from a valve/hose through the board and on the deck or even better, attach a 1/2 inch thick plastic chamber (you know like the sports cooling packets) and fill it with some type of heavily viscous gel that would be pliable enough to dissipate/channel pressure points but still maintain a stable form unlike what happens to an airmat when you decrease the pressure.

So the question…

Any of you mad scientists out there done this experiment yet? Kind of seems simple if you have the time and a board to trash.

Sorry I know this is kind of out there, but it seems like in comparison to mats or hydrofoil boards, regular surfboards are designed to fight the energy of the wave while we try and compensate by designing fins to do the opposite. The only attempt I’m aware of is to make the entire riding platform, pliable like the boogie board/mats. Seems you would want the pliability where there’s water contact but a stable secure platform on which to stand on.

Look forward to hearing about any projects…

Aloha

2

I don’t have any projects in the works but I was flashing on the same thought just the other day (talk about synchronicity).

I ride kneeboards so was my thought was to attach a small platform one could kneel on to a regular sized surf mat. The main attraction would be the ease of travel with such a setup. Surfmats, of course, can be deflated and folded up into a rather compact size, and the kneeling platform would be much smaller than a regular kneeboard.

Would need to work out a method of securely attaching the platform to the surfmat, but other than that…

Don’t really know if this would have any advantage over riding a surfmat in the regular fashion, but it would be an interesting experiment.

3

I’ve been toying with a similar idea. Howsabout a skin-on-frame surfboard. Ever checked out a modern home-built skin kayak covered in dacron or polyester and sealed with urethane? The frame would consist of plywood bulkhead/frames with full length stringers defining the shape, ending in nose and tail blocks. Rails would be “chined” as a result.

7/10

4

Excellent idea, oneula!

Here`s a few brief thoughts:

“…the new growth of the high tech mat surfing of greenough and dale solomonson…”

Actually it`s been going on for many years. I built the original modern ultralight nylon/polyurethane surf mat in late 1982- successfully tested by Paul Gross and George Greenough in early 1983. This “new growth” is happening because true custom mats are being made (for the first time ever) on a worldwide basis.

“It appears that some of the highest(non-hydroplane)speeds are attained when the surface experiencing contact with the water is pliable and “in tune” with the surface dynamics caused by the water flowing by.”

Yes! The tension in the wave face, its curves and surface texture are the primary influences… all are in a state of constant change.

“…the beast is basically one huge muscle…”

A good description of the modern surf mat.

“…a solomonson rubber mat with it’s channeled bottom…”

They`re composed of polyurethane and nylon. No adhesives. When ridden at lower air volumes, modern surf mats do not look like they do in fully inflated (at rest, non-surfing) photographs.

“…and fill it with some type of heavily viscous gel that would be pliable enough to dissipate/channel pressure points but still maintain a stable form unlike what happens to an airmat when you decrease the pressure.”

All the gels I`ve ever tested have been too heavy, too sluggish, and provided little-to-no bouyancy. One of the advantages of the modern surf mat is the opposite of maintaining a stable form: the unique ability to instantly and efficiently adapt its shape (and degree of surface resistance) to changes in external and internal pressures.

FYI, bodyboards have almost nothing in common with surf mats regarding design, materials, construction, riding style or performance.

No exaggeration… mat surfing literally changes the way surfers think about waves, surfing (and surfcraft design). The simple truth of that is often recognized by the most unlikely people:

"…my physical therapist, talked story for a while, I told her about the surf mat, she thought about it awhile and then said (east indian accent): “Oh- so you mean the wave does you, you don’t do the wave.” (Scott McAdam)

Right on.

5

Thanks Dale…

Couldn’t agree with you more but mat surfing to me seems more like an extension of the pureness of bodysurfing. Seems like a mad scientist could create a body suit(like the swimmers) with air chambers on the front to duplicate the essence of what you’re really doing as far as contorting and adjusting waterflow to the wave’s needs. I agree that body form manipulation “accepts” the waterflow instead of fighting it making an efficient interaction.

My vision is basically a standup board that doesn’t flop or flex around too much but who’s bottom contour is constantly changing to maintain the optimum waterflow in a path of least resistance. The standard board design concept is to try and “channel” or force the water flow into a direction of your preference which obiously is going to create resistance, friction and turbulence. It’s kind of funny that there’s alot of discussion here about reducing these exact same things when it come to fins but no discussion/new ideas about how to do the same with the water surface contact area of the board itself…

As far as the “gel” idea, I got it from a dog cooler mat I bought from the pet store basically a 2’x3’ pad you fill with water to activate a cooling gel that your dog can lay on to chill out in the Hawaiian heat.

It also occurred to me later that if you also took the “micro balloon” filler used in these new Fom cushions being sold by Brookstone and filled a very pliable plastic or rubberized chamber 1/2 to 1/4 inch thick you might be able to accomplish the same effect, You have to check the cushions out they pretty much act like a liquid. Seems like two of these at $35 each would do the trick maybe even one.

http://www.brookstone.com/shop/product.asp?product_code=467027&world_code=1&category_code=28&subcategory_code=173&search_type=subcategory

Anyway, the trick I guess is how to come up with the chamber material in the first place, how to adhere it especially around a set of glassed on fins, how far up the rail to go and how to fill it then seal it. Daunting tasks none the least but I’m sure there’s a swaylocks patron game for the challenge.

As you can tell I’m a little out of the box when it comes to thinking about my water craft just haven’t had the time or motivation to resurface some of these ideas…

Swaylocks kind of stirred up some old dreams…

Aloha

6
Quote:

Anyway, the trick I guess is how to come up with the chamber material in the first place, how to adhere it especially around a set of glassed on fins, how far up the rail to go and how to fill it then seal it

The fin issue shouldn’t be a problem. Starting with the assumption you would have a hard deck to stand on, either glass the fins or put fin boxes into the hard/deck material. The bottom surface is going to be a chamber - really a flat bag/bladder. That will fit around the fin/fins. You would have to factor that into fin depth. The tricky part will be, as you say, filling and sealing the chamber and what material you use. Like Dale said, it pretty much would need to add bouyancy while still being “fluid” as far as internal chamber movement goes…and fluid in a real fast manner, which seems like it would preclude a gel.

As for the “air suit” you described, Dale and I talked about that very topic last month. I won’t speak for him but what I took away - taking his word for everything on that subject - was that it would be incredibly labor intensive for modest or perhaps little performance gain. I asked specifically about using bouyancy compensator valves, and he mentioned the prospect of getting your teeth knocked out by one of those suckers…ouch! He used some on early mats. This area still needs poking and prodding…seems like something could be done there.

7

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:aHR8scqMEN8J:www.micro-beads.com/+microbeads&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

8

“It’s kind of funny that there’s alot of discussion here about reducing these exact same things when it come to fins but no discussion/new ideas about how to do the same with the water surface contact area of the board itself…”

My observation, too.

Each wave arrives with the necessary curves to influence an adaptable surfcraft`s perfect template, rocker, rail contour and thickness flow… for that wave.

“Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.”

(George Bernard Shaw)

9

“… mat surfing to me seems more like an extension of the pureness of bodysurfing”

Yes. They more closely related than any other form of surfing.

“…a very pliable plastic or rubberized chamber 1/2 to 1/4 inch thick you might be able to accomplish the same effect”

Modern surf mats instantly adapt to the curves in the wave face… a firm/solid deck inhibits and deadens that intimate characteristic.

The low air pressure, supple thickness of a surf mat (average 5" to 6") quickly molds itself over and around (not cut/bounce through) rough surface texture, i.e. bumps and ledges. The deck and bottom surfaces function separately… in essence, acting as an independent suspension system.

Modern surfmats are literally an active air interface between rider and wave.

Mats actually run faster (yet with control) over chop. They “roll” smoothly through trim lines and directional changes, requiring very little side-to-side leverage. Minimal effort. Riding prone (head and chest down) with low center of gravity balanced over the entire deck (no pressure points) offers little wind resistance.

The goal of developing a functional “for standing use” craft with the attributes of a surf mat, would be a formidable challenge.

10

Hey Solo (ha, I saw you on the surf mag site, and wanted to tease you, but… lazy) What about the guy on the big island who is working with/at inflatable stand-up board? I thought you said he had experienced some success, and wouldn’t a board of that type afford some of the bottom characteristics you guys are talking about?

ps. I am deadly serious about my standing order for the aqua matt.

Peace and love, Taylor

11

How about a board that was more like a Zodiac? Rigid rails and deck with a soft bottom. Maybe light pvc battens to keep a basic hull shape with your tail block connected like the zodiacs transom.

12

Hi Taylor…

Last I heard, the Simms AirBoard project is still in progress on the big island. Bob`s boards are very firm, heavier, high pressure structures, far more like a solid object. In contrast, modern surf mats are ultralight, surfed very soft, at low air pressures.

Re: your order, shoot me a PM… thanks!

Dale

13

“… the “gel” idea… filled a very pliable plastic or rubberized chamber 1/2 to 1/4 inch thick you might be able to accomplish the same effect…”

Yes. Someday a boundary material will be available that is lightweight, closed cell, has minimal buoyancy and is compressable- expandable with instant response. It`s not unreasonable to imagine the military and aerospace industry are already using something similar.

If I was currently experimenting along these lines, I`d use a slightly thinner/narrower board, bond a 1/2" to 1" layer of soft open cell foam - upholstery quality latex or polyurethane (a more expensive alternative is an equally soft closed cell foam) to the bottom and rails with headliner spray adhesive, over that apply a very thin/supple non-permeable fabric/film with more contact cement, and then carefully seal the soft foam boundary layer edge-to- fiberglass transition.

This method would be relatively inexpensive, add little initial weight and buoyancy, and require minimal labor. One of the challenges would be a thorough evaluation before it begins taking on moisture.

If tested in good, uncrowded waves, I`m sure that such a construction would give a skilled surfer enough of a feel to determine whether the idea justifies further investigation.

14

We’ve been working on exactly that. It’s important that the deck and rails are hard and stiff for positive rail set initiation and hold on turns. But the bottom needs to move, to allow for flex and return. This improves water flow and positive return, kind of like the flex and return on the face on a tennis racket. We get this in our development blanks utilizing carbon fiber over a very light foam between two perimeter stringers. Big difference between dolphins and surfboards are that surfboards are planeing hulls and dolphins are not. Still there are some similarities at the water/surface interface. The other positive to this is the shock absorbing aspect of a bottom that moves. In our feedback this improves control dramatically and anyone who has ever driven a car on a rough road can easily see the positives of control by utilizing shock absorbers. The feedback from this has been very positive. We’ve also discussed this with the Hydro Epic guys and they too have had similar feedback.