ding.
what i was suggesting was that the yellow foam was another core for the type of construction
that i have been involved in. i have only shaped a cple of yellows& they got more or less a std glass job
but i am keen ( after winter) to process a cple & match them against the c d d.
gregs w m d construction is ideal for midgets yellow.
the last c d d for the time being
** good stuff bruce hope your well’’
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maybe MD and DS should have a shapeoff...glass off and ride off heh heh
MD…now I’ve got it.
I have shaped some Surfblanks. I only bought a few through Andrew when he had his operation in Carpinteria. The rest I shaped from them I bought privately for pennies on the dollar from someone that decided to get out of the business. None of those blanks were the yellow formulation. I made mention of my experience shaping some of the Surfblanks in earlier threads, but this was nearly two year ago?
I found the foam consistent but more prone to tearing for the speed I mow. During those posts I asked for people’s feedback on using the abrasive drums on their planers but since I use the larger Hitachi planers, I found out the drum doesn’t fit those models. At that point in time I was shaping some Homeblown, U.S. Blanks, Surfblanks, Ice Nine Cane (then Mowses) and EPS. I also stocked up on EPS using my capital to score several hundred blanks for pennies on the dollar. I have plenty of experience glassing both epoxy and polyester surfboards.
I offered a lot of feedback in earlier posts regarding Ice Nine because that is what I was using. The company appreciated my feedback and took care of me accordingly. All the statements I made while working with their foam was matter of fact, cards face up on the table, and I hope I provided some insight for people regardless of what level you might be in surfboard construction ability. Cane was not for everyone, sometimes I got a terrific result while other times I had some random yellowing and problems that I could not conclusively deduce that it was or wasn’t the foam. The cane also had a tendency to tear at high speed planing. Cane definitely ad to be respected in regards to heat. When Mowses came about, it was a whole different deal. I was enraptured, apparently much like what Terry Martin experienced with Scott Saunders’ Just Foam. I read his comments after I had posted mine…had never seen his statement before, and they were nearly identical.
Good foam is good foam, and I’m glad to (perhaps) be in company with Terry’s passion in some size shape or form.
As far as Surblanks, I have kept in touch with the guys at Surfblanks and although they made the move to Oceanside, delivery is consistently being made to Al and I don’t forsee a problem in getting the foam. I really would love to try the new yellow formulation esp. now that Andrew told me it is finer celled and the shapeability is closer to Walker’s Mowses. I requested slices of blanks so I can do up rocker profiles for Surfblansk to have on file for me. I prefer this method because the slice has the foil (full length thickness flow) making it easier for me to create templates versus transposing decks, not knowing actual thickness of the blanks and whatnot.
There has been no huge urgency on this happening with SB, because the economy has brought business to a standstill. I don’t think I am alone in experiencing this…or maybe my boards just suck and everyone else is doing phenomenal business and keeping it from me (LOL).
P.S.
My understanding is tha Ice Nine is still delivering to San Diego and keys accounts in different areas. The buzz at Sacred Craft recently was that they are out and gone forever…I asked and was told that rumors are exactly that: rumors. I think it would be a shame to lose the Walker Mowses formulation, but if we do, I certainly hope the same attributes are available in some other suppliers foam! Is Just Foam still in biz?
P.P.S.
As an afterthought…if in fact midget’s yellow foam density is 1.98 lb…then I would certainly take a serious look at it. At that density, I would imagine the shapeability might be more ‘shaper friendly’ than what MF’s philosopy was a couple years ago…but not necessarily so. What I am getting at is how the Surfblanks yellow foam compares in compression strength to high grade EPS. The compressive strenghth of EPS is quite admirable and the durabily equally so. For those whose attitude toward EPS being crap, I’d have to say you’re inthe dark ages. Both Stretch and I had considerable early exposure to EPS while doing sailboards and the material has some pretty nice dynamics. I guess what I have to see is if the Surfblanks 2 lb. foam can perform as well as good EPS and what it’s ability is to resist crushing due to being a fixed cell structure. I can now see the importance of a finer cell in this scenario. Hamish did a shortie up and his guy went out and won something. That was glassed with epoxy if I’m not mistaken???
Hmmmm, cells vs. beads…?..!..?..!!..
If a yellow SB comes knocking on my door, I certainly wouldn’t turn her away. I’d sexy her up and get a team rider to go bang on it some…
I was replying to McDing on the industry talk part of Sways as I think I can appreciate where he has coming from. There was also a point where you used to be able to get your material costs back on a second hand board if you made it yourself and did a half decent job to begin with. Now, well… hijack!!
**bruce great read it just gets beter with you i love it’’ ill give you props for that
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cell vs bead yes lets see where that can go; jez theres some interesting things can be done
throw in some wood a bit of carbon get em coming out 4lb 9 oz jez to bad i have gone back to shaping some balsa repro’s
**might be to old to go to many more rounds
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**Hamish did a shortie up and his guy went out and won something. That was glassed with epoxy if I’m not mistaken??? **
Hmmmm, cells vs. beads…?..!..?..!!..
Knowing the APS Pro that Hamish made that board for and having some intel here’s the scope:
The board was a PU TDI Yellow Formula + EPOXY RR + S Cloth + Standard HPSB Thruster (Hamish is a every experienced shaper to say the least)
Quality Product. It cost more than a basic PU/POLY + Standard Cloth = +$100.00 more than standard
People who are serious about surfing pay the extra 100 bucks for this type of Performance.
20 sessions $5.00 per surf. When you are a Surfing Professional with Photo Incentives and possible contest winnings it’s a cheap price to pay.
However the general surfing public won’t pay for the extra enhancements. This type of board is mainly for the Surfing Professional.
It’s like a car made for the Indy 500 verses a car made for the local dealer. Usually its the Board Builder that adsorbs this cost. Which if his guy or girl does well can equate to actual sells. Then he makes all his standard boards with standard materials and squeezes some sort of profit.
I believe most of us know how to make a good board. The issue here is the general public demanding such a thing?
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Right on.........Hamish (Graham) has been a solid shaper for decades. He put out a great board when he was here in Santa Barbara and for whatever reason decided to make his move down south. There were some very devoted surfers riding his deep six channeled designs at Rincon and loving them.
Fixed cell vs Beads.........and beyond that.......epoxy vs. polyester.
Epoxy is lighter and my conviction is that it IS STRONGER. Greg Loehr has made the case many times as to what the real difference in cost is if you use it as a professional. I used his resin on both EPS and PU (Clark) sailboard blanks throughout the 80's for differentapplications. We were pretty hard on wave sailboards in the early 80's because we had'nt really learned how to jump and more importantly land.......this produced a lot of broken fin boxes, new ways to reinforce them, and the same challenges were impacting (literally) the decks of our boards. Coming down wrong and hard from 30 and 40 feet of air can be harsh. Our regular sailboards built from Clark Foam had 7 layers (combos of S, E and/or K) in the footstrap area. We were hoping to get away from the extensive cost of cloth reinforcement by trying some epoxy models.
Everything we did during the 80's has come around again and again, and only those that were there know this to be true. We learned a helluva lot during that one decade. That is not to say that advancements aren't taking place now.......heck the good PU foam out there makes for a super strong board. I did up a high volume PU Stoker V Machine (7'2"x23"x3" with a 17" tail) and barely skinned Mowses......at 10 lbs. the thing is bomb proof. Someone could say "10 lbs. is heavy....uh, this board out paddles funshapes and some longboards......it's got a lotta volume! 10 lbs. ain't heavy.
But this new stuff Midget has got is worth exploring....and I find it ironic that in Oz it gets taken for granted and becomes "Premium" for prized accounts in Brazil.....but then again, it has already been said by SD and others that the buck ends with the consumer. What is the guy on the street willing to pay and just HOW MUCH PERFORMANCE does he demand from his equipment....REALLY DEMAND? How many guys talk a good game and you see them out there stink bugging it?
Beads have memory......debate it if you like, I don't think there's much to debate about it. Cells crush.....they are fixed. Now if you want to throw a sheet of plywood down and drive your motorcycle over either one, you probably are gonna be fine with either. As far as the hassle of using EPS and epoxy versus a 1.98 lb PU and some UV PE.......heck, MF is right.....throw the cloth down on it for what YOUR NEEDS are and you are good to go. If you want a 3 pounder go super skimpy everywhere except your stance..........I used to do that and call the glassing configs 4-2-1's, 3-2-1's...and so on......with the first number signifying the deck stance area then heading toward the nose......no gloss, super light..strong where you need it and ultralite where ya don't..........this of course was a spin off from my 7 layered two stage deck lam process on sailboards. Sure it's easier to do a double 4 single 4, but my personal boards were really light and had 4 layers under my feet.
Think outside of the box then reel it in and make it workable for the lemmings.
P.S.
Oh and one more thing........this is to MD about me shaping a Surfblank yellow and reporting on Sway's about it........I'm a business person and I have a mortgage, a family and a budget. I've spent plenty on testing and reporting while in a pretty disparaging economy......the foam was on my dime and the reporting was voluntary. Now if you want to buy me some foam to test and report on it ......well you can just put your money where your mouth is and I will gladly oblige.
Otherwise I'll have to do this on my own dime and time schedule.......capiche?
My last few personal boards have been PU/Epoxy but with e cloth not s. I find it superior to PU/polyester not only in flex and lightness but also durability. I also think durability is the only reason not to put the prices up on boards and my PU/epoxy boards have lasted about twice as long as PU/PE.
In regards to are the general public prepared to pay for such a thing? If enough producers switch to epoxy and put the prices up, then there is nothing else for serious surfers to do but pay the increase. As for the board builder swallowing the cost of a better performing, lighter and stronger board? I say get fucked. No reference to anyone on this forum by the way it’s just that good surfboards are already massively undervalued.
In this country you can buy a Firewire or Surftech brand new for $1,100 NZD at the cheapest and these boards last a lot longer than your PU/PE constructed board. They’re also quite a bit more expensive. I think with some of the foams and resins out there now you can build a board that is nearly as strong with regular construction. By regular construction I mean hand made. And by nearly as strong I also mean only slightly cheaper than the aforementioned. Keep the price relative as they say.
Try swallowing the cost of the benefits epoxy on polyurethane provides and it will become taken for granted. And the only person who wins in that is the consumer. Otherwise known as the cost of competing on price. Now back to Sonic foam.
Try swallowing the cost of the benefits epoxy on polyurethane provides
and it will become taken for granted. And the only person who wins in
that is the consumer. Otherwise known as the cost of competing on price.
The case I wrote about concerning the PU/EPOXY was made for a high profiled media exposure plus surfer. The investment was not wasted. Competing on price is stupid period! This was marketing carefully.** **
**However if the board builder adsorbs the cost of doing a better board to the general public then he is lacking brain cells or has a heavy crystal meth habit?
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These types of cost need to be passed on to the customer **if he or she is willing to pay for the added performance. **Basic business 101 means maintaining your profit margin! Cost (labor, material including overhead) Plus % margin. Then of course there is a marketing budget. This is where the board builder gets delusional. Most builders are not prepared to take on the expense of a team and free boards. Make good boards first then the better surfers will come to you.
Now back to Sonic foam.
I believe they are the only company blowing foam on the east coast? If this is the case they should do well. In California we had so many start-up foam companies after the Clark Shut Down that blank prices tanked and profitability became diluted. Now they are dropping like flies. With transportation cost and other factors ZONIC may have a chance as long as they keep there quality at a level the east coast shapers are willing to accept? I hope for them they can get their formula down? I know when ICE 9 started making TDI (Moises) the quality improved greatly.
As far as the GREEN CARD?
I would be scared to play that card with MDI.** **
**Sustainability? That is to be proven?
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There are enough different types of constuction being offered to have acceptable pricing structures available to the consumer w/o shooting yourself in the foot. Part of that can be achieved by creative and effective marketing, and that doesn't mean it has to cost an arm and a leg. Just distinguish what types of products you are making for your prospective customer and crunch your numbers so there exists an incentive for you to make them in the first place.
I can handmake an extremely durable EPS epoxy product that is custom and just about bomb proof. The target market is the customer that wants a durable product and considers SurfTech and Boardworks models. I go through a bit more work in making these reinforced boards, but I also know they are damn hard to ding and the customers that have them continue to report back about how happy they are with the boards for both looks and strength.
Think about what your strengths are in what you make and be creative. Isn't that the attraction in the first place. I haven't browsed to see if Sonic Foam has a site.....I'll do that after I get off this post. No doubt it would be nice for East Coast manufacturers to have a quality blank source within the region. It must be incredibly difficult and volatile to be a blank manufacturer. Props to those that are doing a good job.
I feel like after the last 3 years, I'm finally just settling into suppliers that I can trust. I'll continue to use the Mowses Ice Nine blanks I like, then Surfblanks and U.S. Blanks in that order. The latter two have such extensive inventories it only make sense for a handshaper to use one or both of them. IF the SB's come out lighter and stronger than the US. Blanks then my $ will lean toward them.....and EPS, which I like for certain applications.
Cells vs Beads
Done.
My proposal was simple enough; Shape up a YellowSB, glass it with epoxy and give us a first hand and first rate asessment as you did with the "Moses Ice-Nine". Simple enough! I remember in another thread somewhere that you kind of wished you had a Clark to shape so you could make some personal comparison, since it had been along time since you shaped one it would refresh your memory. I offered to give you the Clark. No ill feelings mean't by any of it. Just a simple porposal. You seemed to have turned that into a "put up or shut up" which is easy enough for me to do but obviously not you.
McDing........guess I misread your intent. My apologies. I thought you were joking about the Clark and sure, I certainly look forward to shaping yellow and other Surfblanks forthcoming. The boards come out light and held u really well with UV poly and I'm sure even more so with epoxy.
I still want to make the point that I can only do so much in this economy. I don't think I'm alone on that one, and I sure wish our current state of affairs were robust and everyone was out there shopping to add to their quivers. I have an acquaintance that is bad rapping one of thePU foam manufacturers for a recent board he had made (not from me) and he was compensated fairly andis still bitching. Some people just don't know when to quit. But this same person has burned many bridges along the way and I am not alone in deciding to graciously decline his work.
Maybe shaping a Clark would enlighten me as to how far the new foam has come. Either way, I apologize for misinterpreting your intent and for taking you wrong.
aw thats nice.
** hey bruce i got some good stuff will talk with you soon’
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Hey Mc ding…just curious, why would you offer me a Clark instead of a SB yellow? I coulda shaped it up, offered my thoughts on Sway’s and given you whatever you wanted in the shape…win win scenario?
Simple logistics. (ie as the crow flys) I'm looking at the Clarks right here in my storage, fifty-one of 'em. If I could easily get my hands on or if I do get my hands on a Yellow Surfblanks I'll shape it myself and glass it with epoxy. Too me, that's a "win win. Only thing is if I like the end product I might not go public with the results.
Dead:
Keep everything on the down low!
I have some new discoveries as well.
SD
…hello DS,
happens that I shaped almost all the foam (included Burford) except these Ice9 and Sonic and couple of small brands round the world
Im not asociated with Surfblanks, but Surfblanks Brazil (Teccel) have now the best foam so far
better than Surfblank Mexico/USA
Just foam is spongy and sucks resin
USblank is an old formula can t compete…
-Surfb/Teccel is a great company and with their own formulas
not like you say that Farrelly s needed to move to Brazil, etc
several weeks ago arrived more than100 blanks here but not the premium density
-talking about PU boards duration with cost ratio
in the last weeks I was thinking in start a new thread about that but the local electric company burned down my PC
and I have been working, surfing and studying my degree (also building couple of British motorcycles) so no time to seat and read, write, etc
My doubt is if I ll start in the general disc or here in the Industry
because I want to put brand names and my test
Ok…I got the message from some industry people here. “Keep it to yourself”.
Of course, I have to say, I don’t share everything on Sway’s. I guess my days of foam reviews are over. There’s no point in going back and shaping a Clark, what purpose would that serve?
The web and internet world is an interesting place, to be sure. One might think that everything they browse and search for are up to date, but that’s just not the case. I know of one well established surfboard builder site (well actually two, now that I think about it) that equivocally state certain ‘truths’ in their sites, that are absolutely WRONG about surfboard materials and construction. One of them has been around for, like 800 million years, with a real famous reputation, and I have to think, well this is lame…who wrote your site? And the other one is just a big bullsh-t claim about foam material that they supposedly developed, but the claim is merely for their own self serving purpose. Both are complete bullshit or they simply don’t know what they are talking about (which I find very difficult to believe).
So, yeah, okay…I’ve discovered some really cool things recently, one in particular that is a widely held ‘KNOWN TRUTH’ that actually turned out to be false…!!! I experimented and disproved the widely held truth!
…but as you say, keep it to yourself. 
**Surfblanks Brazil (Teccel) have now the best foam so far **= How much are you being paid to say that?
**better than Surfblank Mexico/USA = **How do you qualify that statement?
**Just foam is spongy and sucks resin = **They are no longer in business?
**USblank is an old formula can t compete…= **Are you Joking? It’s completely different and much better than the old clark. Have you even use the new formula?
Reverb: I always thought of you as a purest? What’s with the Bias?
**It’s only chemisty and process and rocker management. **
**US Blanks has it pretty down. Let’s not bash these honest people trying to run a company in difficult times.
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I would have to support your claims here, knowing that you have cut most of the blanks you mention. U.S. Blanks has developed new formulas over the past year and Surfblanks has done the same. Teccel has had a good buzz about it for quite some time, but distribution is a concern for anyone trying to run a profitable business. Who is left in the business? What of Surfari? Blair? Just Foam? and any number of others that declared themselves over the past several years?
It’s easy for someone that is doing surfboards as a hobby to tout this foam or that brand of blank, it is quite another to be able to be in a professional surfboard business using consistent quality foam that is available on a regular basis. Distribution costs impact price and represent considerable logistics getting supply to each boardbuilder. The cost of running trucks isn’t cheap, and someone has o drive those delivery vehicles as well. Wage? Workers Comp? Gas, oil, tire and engine wear and tear?
If a manufacturer and a supplier develop a business relationship, neither of them are too quick to forsake that relationship. For someone that wants to dabble here and there, then I can understand why trying a little of this or that foam doesn’t make a difference. But unless the supplier feels like the time and expense involved in supplying a boardbuilder is worth their effort, I would support their position in not bothering with that person at all.
SD brings up a good point…it is a very challenging time to run these businesses, and the senseless bad rapping from people on Sway’s that do a few boards here and there should be received for what they are.** I’m not suggesting that Reverb or some others are hobbyists**…maybe you are or aren’t, I have no idea. But I, for one, appreciate the time and effort they put into what they do, so at the end of the day, we have decent material to make surfboards with.