SONIC FOAM

reverb · August 10, 2009, 3:37pm

…hello Surfding,

may be you misunderstood my points

-nothing

-shaped them when they opened. may be they improved right now

also see what Farrelly say in previous comments

-what new formula? 2009 formula?

because the ones that I shaped cant compete with Aussies ones

-happens that all this mumbo jumbo about the materials, all along these years,

only to try to sell products is very annoying

all the chats about new materials (what new materials?), etc

so, talking about conventional (PU/PE) materials

those (Surfblanks, BGF, Reichhold) are the best

I say that because I REALLY used almost all the brands out there

Also I can say what are (were) the worst foam

the worst foam are: Safari (pinkish crap) from S Africa, FJ (favela foam) from Brazil, Ulua from Argentina (using a super old Bennett Australia formula), Corner blanks from Brazil (using an old Dion Australia formula)

I used Rhyno and Elova too

like I said in previous comment, I never used Ice9, Sonic, Ocean foam (Australia), Homeblown England, and a French one than I cannot remember the name

I remember when in mid 80s “all” were glad about CF and Burford had superior chemistry in those years

also Bennett foam Brazil (now Rhyno) in early 90s had better plugs (not so complete, still they dont have a complete list like CF) and chemistry than CF

hope you dont understand this like an offence or something

is not my intention

I tried to be real but not dropping bombs…

hello DS,

you insinuate that Im a hobbyist however I said that 100 (actually a bit more 50 in 1 “package” and 63 in other) blanks arrived here directly from Brazil to shape and test new formula

(Surfblanks Brazil owner is a Swaylocks member so he can PROVE that)

Balsa planks directly from best source in Ecuador (very expensive!) arrived some months ago

I tell ya there s lot of money in these recession times (only talking about blanks; add premium fiberglass rolls, inputs, etc)

and very expensive International freight, customs taxes, brokers, time, etc

However, is you, in previous comment, that say cannot afford 1 and only 1 new blank (that just in your location) to test…

Im a surfboard builder, not only a shaper, for the last 25 years or so and I still can survive living from this labor going from some place to other so I dont have a nice shop or whatever but I have skills and good tools (years pass and I still dont have all the tools!! for all the stages) and known what is what Im doing (for ex I dont know too much about Vac bagging to build a competitive pro built board out of that)

go and read some old threads here and see what I say about glosses, function of some shapes designs, etc

you ll see that Im not a hacker and not a copycat repeating what other say

I learnt the hard way

by the way,

almost all you write in this forum is very correct and I agree

I repeat again

very nice if someday we can arrange a meeting to chat with Surfding, you and some others

DEADSHAPER · August 10, 2009, 8:44pm

Reverb,

I think I said I wasn’t talking about you when I had made the point that some Swaylockians (that ARE hobbyists) make statements about bad foam or what the best foam is. I’ve read numerous on point, spot on comments of yours for years now and I am frequently in agreement with your observations and advice to beginners. My point to “them” was that for ‘real’ builders…meaning the ones that do it for a living like you and I, that dabbling in different foams is one thing, and having reliable and stable suppliers to work with is quite another. I offer an apology if it sounded as though I was dissing you…that was not my intent.I went back through my earlier post and placed what I said in bold italics.

I looked around after writing my last post and didn’t see a distributor in CA for Teccell Foam. I would imagine that is because Surfblanks America (Mex, whatever you wanna call them) has the region for production. Surfsource was the only one I saw pop up with Teccell…and they are in the East. I may be wrong about distribution rights for these guys, but I would imagine that the players affiliated with MF’s company have agreements for avoiding conflict of interests.

If we look at the foams you mentioned shaping, heck, a lot of people on Sway’s (and beyond) have never even heard of them…and if any of us were to spend some time to search we would find more and more brand of foam blanks that could boggle the mind…some PU and some EPS and yes even some extruded. Excell? S Foam?, not to mention Warvel, and many more.

I agree that there IS money to b made within the industry. In another thread we discussed “lean manufacturing”, a methodology that is so important in aviation but is certainly relevant to all of us. My ‘maximize with the minimum’ approach is the exact same principle as lean manufacturing. I described it to Surfding sometime back and explained it as “saving pennies that convert to dollars”. I sell to both direct customers and accounts. I support my accounts and their retailing structure (which I value because of the convenience they provide people wanting my boards w/o waiting) by being concientious about my wholesale cost and the resulting quality they receive.The pennies to dollar approach is irrefutable…take a pennny’s journey and mark it up by the time it reaches the customer on a retail level, then back it down from there to how you can save the customer $, put more $ in your pocket on each and every unit for delivering a quality product in timely fashion. This takes some real doing, but equates to greater success in the long run. I am constantly practicing, reviewing and revising how I can deliver the most bang for the buck in what I offer my customers. Some guys (not saying you) just can’t get their egos out of the way to think in this manner. I just incorporate this way of thinking into the creative process and embrace it, and I have grown to love the challenge it presents

You and I know that both the materials and the skill in using those materials is paramount to the end result. Customer satisfaction and word of mouth is a powerful thing. I’m glad that in today’s times that there are still craftsmen like you and SD and the other dedicated guys on Sway’s and beyond that haven’t fallen along the wayside.

Thanks for your inspiration.

Added on August 10th+

I took a look at your past posts and came across your statements in a thread titled “I Need Teccel Wisdom Please”

“In my opinion, Surfblanks and Elova are the best foam available now for shortboards…” Reverb Aug '06

and in same thread

“but still for shortboards Surfblanks and Burford have the best foam, but don’t have the best plugs”. Reverb August '06.

**This isn’t to discredit you, rather, it goes to show how both you and I make statements that are relative to the current state of affairs at the time it is happening. Sure, someone can take my reporting of Ice Nine foam that was availed to me for testing a couple years ago, then take it out of context and misconstrue my statements for whatever purpose they see fit. But that can just as likely happen to you or anyone else that goes on record in Swaylocks. **

I think that it is important for the readers of this site to realize that those of us that live this industry learn about products and are constantly sourcing and researching materials in an effort to gain a competitive edge or offer a better end product to our customers. You stated earlier in this thread “what new materials”. There ARE new materials becoming available that can be found if one is willing to search and keep an ear to the rail. But I also made the case that an “incentive” must be possible to motivate the manufacturer to do so.

** As far as new developments, I have Mitch from OZ to thank in his thread regarding China production, for me to be smart enough NOT to hand on a platter everyone here some new materials I’ve recently discovered. **

**I don’t owe it to everyone on Swaylock’s Surfboard Design Forum to divulge everything I know.
**

**I, for one, would like to think after 40 years of being involved with building custom surfboards, that I still can evolve as a designer and continue to learn new ways of doing things and find new improved materials to offer the consumer…otherwise I’m truly ‘dead’ and just going through the motions…
**

P.S.

**From all the different South American foam (and others) that you have used, it sounds as though you are in S.A.? If you are, and if you are in Peru, I probably stayed with you in '79 while doing an article for Surfer Magazine?San Bartolo? Esta verdad?
**

reverb · August 11, 2009, 1:13pm

…hello DS

SEEMS THAT YOU HAVE A MISTAKE THERE!

I went to those threads and NEVER said that ELOVA IS THE BEST FOAM

I SAID EXACTLY WHAT I say now

SURFBLANKS is the best foam also Burford (but I dunno right now)

PLEASE READ AGAIN

PS: seems that you can work editing in the yellow press if you leave sboards ha ha

surfding · August 11, 2009, 2:23am

Estoy en Mexico ahora. Tango dos semanas mas hasta terminar mi projecto aqui.

Use whatever foam that makes your skin tingle!

Of all the things on this planet there is to do?

Believe me Shaping surfboards does nothing to improve our civilization!

Let's keep it fun and quit taking ourselves so serious?

DEADSHAPER · August 11, 2009, 5:41am

Hmmm, that’s pretty strange…I’ll go back and look again but the comments were adjacent to your Reverb avatar?

Idon’t get it!?

It might be time for me to move to Socotra Island…aka ‘the Lost World’.

You did NOT say Elova foam as stated in the first quote, you are correct. You state it as BURFORD…then Pierpont Scott jumps on you for the comparison to Walker Foam…blah blah.

My apologies on that one. Okay, I’ve got all my stuff packed up for Socotra Island. If you are trying to locate it on the globe, good luck…look below South Africa. Beautiful but desolate place. Great whites love it…I don’t know how much board work I’ll get there but maybe I can start up a blank factory and ship from there using Somalian Pirates. I guess this American lifestyle has just gotten to fast for me. I even got it wrong that I knew you…evidently you’re not my old friend Wayo Whilar…I’ve been wrong before. In fact I’ve been wrong more and more lately. Well, in fact, I just ca’t seem to get anything right anymore! I thought I knew stuff, now I’m not so sure.

I was hoping I might be the only SANE man in a crazy culture, but now it appears I’ve gotten it wrong, so terribly wrong. I feel reduced to a mosquito on a rhino’s arse…insignificant…rambling…rambling…just rambling on and on like a madm…

P.S.

My apologies again…I’ll send you an ear once I get settled.

reverb · August 11, 2009, 1:21pm

…ok,

Surfblanks and Burford is what I said

.very funny and ironic

Sometimes I m feeling alone talking “nonsense” in a rising tide of people that think very different

talking about Whilar,

he s a Swaylock s member

huie · August 11, 2009, 1:56pm

jeez the mere mention of midgets yellow foam started all this.

i am goona hafta shape one up & stick it in the bag see what we can get out’’

do yous want me to drive the car over it before or after i give it to the tester

seriously fellas i enjoy a chat with you so lets not see to much venomm

ding i am not seeing enough pics of your good work&what about the young fella mor pics

same with you bruce.

**gee i hope things pick up for you guys
**

DEADSHAPER · August 12, 2009, 1:22am

Wayo is good people…so are his brothers “little” Milton and big bro Pepe. They were kind to me. I stayed with Wayo and mentioned him in the Surfer article I did…up to that point all the limelight went to Flaco and Gordo (Barreda). I interviewed Sr. Carlos Dogny…the true legend of Peru. He was the one who brought the first board back from Waikiki after surfing with Duke Kahanamoku. Dogny got on a frieghter headed back to S.A. as war broke out…that led to what surfing is today in South America and the establishment of the club at Miraflores. In the bowels below the club I saw carefully maintained boards that everyone left when they came to Peru for the championships…Reno’s Hyperkick Disc, Fred Hemming’s board, and too many others to list here. Club members could check them out and go ride them across the street.

I stayed out in Punta Hermosa mostly, a guest of the generosity of Sr. Piti Block…the 2nd surfer in Peru and friend that introduced me to Sr. Dogny. Great people. Great memories. It was rumored that Felipe Pomar is the illegitimate son of Sr. Dogny. This is not meant to insult or anger anyone…it was merely what I was told. I would never reveal this while Sr. Dogny was alive, and I hope that I have not crossed any lines by stating such. I still recall when Sr. Dogny requested my company for ‘a little party’ at his home in Miraflores. He had this estate in town with a Hawaian style clubhouse separate from the main house. It was done up like a Hawaiian grass shack. He decided to have a little luau because some friends showed up in Lima. I was pleasantly surprised when I arrived that his ‘friends’ were Playboy playmates and there were just a few of us to party the night away.

That’s one of the times I got things right, albeit no credit of mine…

reverb · August 12, 2009, 3:03am

…cool story,

can add that just yesterday, I was reading a book called He e Nalu

by Ariel González; that was one of the competitors in those championships (late 60 s ones I mean)

surfding · August 12, 2009, 3:50am

No bad blood. Reverb is one tuff deadly martial artist. So I take back anything I said.

Deadshaper is a true craftsman and inovator.

Sales are down this season however it will pick back up in 2010.

My kid is working on a new video and caugth some great swell down in Mexico. Will post footage once it's edited.

I have 4 solid wood boards to finish that I will post soon.

Vacuum bagging is the direction I'm taking for now.

PU and standard board building has become a bit boring.

Love your work! Thanks for keeping it real!

DEADSHAPER · August 12, 2009, 7:04am

Alright, can we all agree to keep it warm n fuzzy now?..LOL. Yeah, Peru was a blast…La Isla, Punta Rocas, Herradura, Puerto Viejo…even sloppy Miraflores. It’s not a bad way to live…traveling the world to sample different waves, new cultures and make new friend.

Life should be so hard, eh?

Huie…I’ll be doing some cool new stuff and since i fnally figured out how to post a picture (like in that tissue paper thread), I’ll strut my stuff at some point soon…wheeeeeeeee!

huie · August 12, 2009, 7:07am

i am waiting for some balsa so i am doing this beech& ceder

surfding · August 12, 2009, 3:05pm

Nice woodwork!

malamafoam · August 13, 2009, 8:22pm

I also admire you trying everything you can to be even that much cleaner than the next guy. he is right - there is no way (currently) to make a “clean” surfboard. However, there are several ways to clean up the proccess and its constituents. You can start by using our foam - It is MDI (which basically translates to non-carcinogenic) and is soy based instead of petrol-based. Much better than anything else you will find concerning blanks. Take it one step further and glass your board with bamboo fabric and epoxy resin. Epoxy is much cleaner than PU. Bamboo is one of the most sustainable, light,and strong fabrics out there. It is a bit tough to work with in that it doesn’t wrap rails all that well. . . it helps to know where to get the right type as well. . . email me and I can help you out with that. We also have a linseed oil resin that works pretty well for hotcoating. It is sort of tempermental and requires more attention than standard resins. . . so i would say it is in the develomental stages. but it is doable, and there are several other options for plant based resins and cloths coming into play as more research is being done on them.

Long story short - you can’t have a fire without a spark.

Check out www.malamasurfblanks.com

my name is ryan - I will be happy to help you with anything you need to start the process of “cleaning” your supply chain.

DEADSHAPER · September 22, 2009, 11:58pm

**News Flash! **

**SONIC FOAM DOES EXIST! (well maybe, if they haven’t gone under already)…who started this thread? **

Anyone looking for foam in the northeast might want to check and see if this link goes through.

http://www.sonicfoamblanks.com

**…go Johnny go!
**

surfding · September 23, 2009, 7:22am

I checked out their site and found it to be well written. One thing is they do not use bleach or TDI. One shaper in NH claims it's good stuff? I'm no longer going to be the first one to get sucker punched. These guys seem to be well educated intelligent people. Hopefully they will succeed in their endeavor. I don't think they will make any impact concerning surfboard blanks however they may do well with other applications. Cream color boards won't work for the masses.

High Density EPS with the right glass material properly distributed is more tangible than another MDI Fiasco. I notice they were clever to say: "no TDI". However they did not mention the replacement? They said that they have integrity yet where is the transparency?

What is the replacement?

Here’s their pitch!

Why Cream is Cool

Support being "green" by riding cream...

The first step to making surfboards sustainable is embracing cream. We don't use chlorine bleach in our product. Bleach, which is what makes your surfboards from other companies shiny white, is actually more toxic than you might think.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has found dioxin (a toxic byproduct of chlorine) to be 300,000 times more potent as a carcinogen than DDT.
http://www.lightparty.com/Health/DangersOfChlorine.html

In addition, bleaching the foam can actually make the chemical bonds weaker.

By using our unbleached foam you, too, are supporting sustainable manufacturing in the United States, while keeping yourself and others safer.

Isocyanates: Why TDI is bad.

Isocyanates are toxic because of the chemical structure known as a benzene ring. Benzene rings are highly reactive to other molecules. The molecule that is known as TDI is small in size and gets airborne easily. TDI is a respiratory hazard to humans and because of the reactive nature of the benzene ring, once TDI is inside the human body it can easily infiltrate the human DNA and cause cancer.

One way to reduce the health issues of the isocyanate molecule is to ensure that it is less likely to get into the air. This is a direct function of size and weight. The larger and heavier the molecule, the less likely it is to be airborne.

Most surfboard blanks companies use TDI despite the harmful effects because, until now, it has been difficult to make high quality surfboard foam with other isocyanates that get less airborne.

The Sonicfoam process allows us to produce TDI-free polyurethane foam without any loss of quality.

[1] Teegarden, David. Polymer Chemistry: Introduction to an Indispensable Science. NSTA Press: 2004.

Great Foam

We created the Sonicfoam process so that we could make the great foam that surfboard shapers are used to without using toxic chemicals like Toluene Diisocyanate, (TDI). To learn more about polyurethane and why such chemicals are used, go to our Polyurethane page.

The Sonicfoam process produces great foam that is made with safer, more environmentally friendly chemicals.

"Feels like surfboard foam to me!"
says one shaper in NH

Just feeling the same wasn't enough for us engineers. We set out to prove that the foam is the same.

In material tests, we put the foam under a variety of stresses and measured the reaction relative to the reaction of foam synthesized with TDI. The results were remarkable. Flexural strength, a measure of, as the name suggests, the strength of the material when put under a bending stress, was actually higher than TDI foam.

This means that our foam is safe to manufacture in the United States. Shipping costs are lower, chemical costs are lower, and you can trust that your surfboard is completely made, by hand, here in the US.

DEADSHAPER · September 27, 2009, 7:21pm

Ding…man, you went to town for these guys with this post!

I have questions!

What’s the difference beetween “white” and “shiny white”?

If “cream is cool”…is that the reason people say “the cream rises to the top”?

Or how come when someone gets “creamed by that section”…is that a good thing? (guess so, if I’m planning on shoulder hopping him).

The BLEACH thing is interesting…can I bleach any old ugly looking foam myself? Maybe it’s just a matter of buying a gallon of Clorox to make ANY blank a sparkling white blank for the masses…

Wow, maybe I should spend the extra $$$ to ship their blanks clear cross the U.S. of A because we are all getting filthy rich with this new post Clark Foam that everyone keeps throwing at us.

Am I sick of being a Guinea Pig?

You betcha!

Here’s a better way to think:

Heat sensitive? Surfboards were made to use IN THE SUN. They shouldn’t swell up on the beach. If they are sensitive…screw that company and get something else.

If they paint bad…screw them…someone said “clear is the new color”…I say screw that, clear is BORING.

We can add more later

surfding · September 27, 2009, 7:52pm

Dead: My ideal is you make the best board you possibly can. Then you make a small part of your production Green and have that offering to the REtro Hippy.

Creamy foam, Heavy and just leave it all Haggard looking and the hippy green guy will be so stoked. He doesn't care about looking good on the wave anyway!

However he doesn't have any money anyway so what's the point?

Is is marketable?

Do surfboards impact the enviroment like Cars, Flushing your toilet or washing your clothes?

DEADSHAPER · October 10, 2009, 11:49pm

Since cream is being done already by Ned and other folks, I think i’m gonna forge a NEW direction.

…OATMEAL…

I’ll use the same tactic as Lost and snag some existing advertising to push my product. MB has the ‘stay thirsty’ ripoff er, campaign, and I will go for some like:

Oatmeal is the NEW GREEN. Clinical studies show that surfers that paddle out each morning with their boards made from Oatmeal have significantly less cholesterol than none users. The fiber in every Oatmeal blank provides more strength and a unique flex pattern better than any other surfboard blank in the world.

**The exclusive process at our factory compresses the Oatmeal Flakes into a Super Fused Compression Resistant (AKA “SFCR” short for “SAFE CORE” (tm/Registered)) core that virtually resists denting under any and all conditions. **

Surfers riding our boards have remarked that they have regular and healty “BM’s” 3 times per day thereby dramatically increasing energy levels and reducing body weight by 7.89%. The result in this study also disclosed that surfers using our Oatmeal based boards, are six times less likely to get colon cancer, experience a noticeable improvement in skin complexion, enjoy less dental problems, have increased blood circulation allowing them to surf winter conditions without a wetsuit of any kind. Users have also reported they have remarkably pretty girls attracted to them in droves, frequently resulting in cat fights over who will get full, undivided attention.

**On the drawing board and due for release next month is our revolutionary new foam designed to replace the need for wooden boards. This unique approach is a beautiful offering comprisedsolely of compressed Cockroaches from Makaha. **

**The supply is abundant, and our studies show the gestation period of the Makaha Cockroach is especially robust thereby guaranteeing an inexhaustible supply for our already busy production facility. **

We will also be rolling out two new models next month, available exclusively in this biological and sustainable resource. Look for our new" J.J. Moonrider Model" along with a unique noserider hybrid by Twelve Toes Mc Dungle.

**P.S. You can lead a hippopotamus to water, but you can’t make him float on his back.
**

keithmelville · October 16, 2009, 4:02pm

Hey Mr. Dead – Hope you have better luck with the oatmeal than I did with the Rice Krispies. That test panel for a blank was a complete failure.

Really.