Starting a small company... Basic questions

Industry Talk
1

Hey everyone

I’m new to Swaylocks (at least posting), been reading for a month or so and decided this was a good time to ask some questions I can’t find anwsers to.

Anyway, in short, a friend of mine and I are looking to start shaping/glassing surfboards for our local community. I won’t get into region specifics as I don’t want to inadvertantly advertise (I suppose this is against forum rules) but we live in a summer surfing community with only one other semi-local shaper around. There has been some demand for a local shaper, and as we have always considered it, we thought this was a good time to jump in. Unfortunatly Clark is gone, but one of the things keeping me from getting into shaping sooner was the environmental aspect of urethane blanks, so I have no beef with EPS.

Much of the reading I’ve done was with EPS blanks. I’ve visited such resources as surfersteve.com, of course Swaylocks, and Surfline, as well as a couple other random google websites I forgot to bookmark.

Can anyone give some advice for getting started? We’re basically working with low funds to start, so we’re going to be starting very small (IE: 5 or 6 blanks) and hope to produce at least 3 good boards to sell for a very low profit in order to pay for the next batch of boards (Not to mention the money in between from working our other jobs)

I’ve got a fairly large garage in which we can work, and I’m in the process of building stands.

My main questions are as follows…

What are the absolute bare neccesitys we’ll need to get started (Not to speed up the process of building, but simply to get into the process. Efficiency will come later if we can successfully produce some boards)

Is there anywhere I can look up to find the basic mixtures for Epoxy on EPS boards? I apologize if this is a stupid question, but for some reason I’m drawing a blank on this one.

What kind of paints can be used for artwork on boards?

Is extensive artwork on a board going to compromise how the cloth/epoxy/resin bond with the EPS?

(The other big goal of ours, and me in particular, is to build boards that are in essence a “Mobile Canvas” for artwork. If possible, I’d like to know if its possible to entirely cover a board from nose to tail with fairly detailed artwork)

Any other advice is greatly appriciated. On a side note, we’ll be at the Atlantic City convention on the 14/15th to meet up with The Board Factory for our first order of blanks! We’d love to chat with anyone willing to give any advice or talk about shaping in general!

Thanks in advance-

  Scott
2

its all in here somewhere. spend a little time looking, and a lot more shaping. Good Luck.

3

Uhmmmm - speaking as somebody in the biz of selling boards;

First off, if you are doing this for fun and no profit, ever, you’re okay. That is , making a very few very idiosyncratic boards strictly for yourself and a very few friends, at cost.

If you are looking to do this to make more than a few, then you want to think about it some. For instance, your goals are kinda conflicted. If you want to do a ‘mobile canvas’, well … consider there are lots of surfboards that do very well with no graphics at all. All the artwork in the world won’t excuse a badly made board.

So, rather than shooting for 3 boards out of six blanks that are ‘good’ as boards, why not shoot for all six.

Lose the artwork plans for the moment, you can buy canvas for that, and instead shape with hand tools, sandpaper and so forth to get the boards end of it right, the artwork on 'em can come later if at all.

Note the ‘if at all’ - as I’m in the biz, my take on it is that artwork is an individual taste, some like it, some hate it, some love a particular style and some will definitely hate it with a passion. Especially a lot of it. But nobody hates a well-made, well shaped board with no artwork at all on it.

Again, if your main goal is to spray paints on foam, well, you can buy foam sheets that’ll be better for that. My experience from a sales point of view is that overall the less art the better.

Other info:

epoxy mix? Varies with the particular epoxy. The resin/hardener ratio is somethig you want to get pretty precisely right, as otherwise it won’t harden. The exact mix will be in the directions and on the label. Using Brand A epoxy resin with Brand B hardener won’t necessarily work, by the way. Different chemistries in epoxies, unlike polyesters.

Will graphics and the surface prep treatments commonly used for graphics compromise how well the glass/epoxy sticks to the foam? Almost certainly. The jury is still out on that, but from my experience it’s gonna be problematic. Especially for new shapers/glassers - you’ll have enough problems getting it right on simple glassing at first.

Plus if you use a lot of dark colors, that will soak up heat and compromise it, badly.

Covering the board with graphics/artwork? It’s been done. I’ll leave it at that.

Paints, etc, that will work with foam? It’s in the archives, but I will note that any paint that’s based on petrochemical violatiles, like lacquers and enamels, will cause you problems with styrene based foams.

The bare necessities? Uhmm - hand tools, sanding stuff, glassing gear, templates, etc. Lots of info in the archives on that. Hicksey’s video is quite nice on glassing. My advice would be to get comfortable and develop some skills with hand tools and do it on scrap material or lumber yard cheap foam before you go messing with expensive blanks.

Get the shape right, then worry about getting the glassing right. Dunno what your current skills with tools are, but foam is funny stuff. Practice, be careful, slow and steady is the way to go.

hope that’s of use

doc…

4

I appriciate your reply. I guess it made quite an emphasis on the artwork on the boards… I didn’t mean on the original boards, but later on down the line. As we will be looking to eventually turn a profit, we will probably keep the artwork to a minimum on the first boards to keep costs/time down and simply slap a rice paper-ed logo or something under the glass.

I’ll check out that video, its something I overlooked. I’ve got ADD like a champ-i-on and long periods of time searching on the computer get me all fuzzy in the brain!

I’ve worked with tools such as planers, table saws, jigsaws, etc, for a long time with wood, so they’re not completely foreign to me. Is there anywhere I can buy cheap EPS to practice on? I understand any drilling for the fin boxes will probably melt the eps a little and getting the RPM right on that seems to be key?

As for the 3 of 6, I’m assuming we’d screw up a few times before we built a really good board. I’m being modest, i dont think its realistic to say we could buy 6 blanks and make all 6 rideable, excellent boards… or is it?

Thanks again. Any other input is great

Scott

5

Don’t worry about getting extra foam to practice on, you will get a lot of that from your first few boards. My first few boards sucked. Like you my friend and I started shaping together,what ever you do don’t try and shape the same board together. Divide them up equally between the two of you. When we started we tried to work on the same board and some one would make a mistake and screw up what someone else was doing. We got pretty pissed at each other. Try and read as much as possible before rushing into your first board. People are pretty nice on here so most people will help if you have a question. Good luck

6

Thanks for the tip! We thought about that too. We figured we’d both work on the same board together, but not nessisarily hands on. (If i’m shaping, I’ll do the shaping, he’ll check it, we’ll figure out the best way to do the next part, and move on).

I’m having trouble navigating the archives to find this video :frowning:

7

Scrap foam - check behind the local hardware store, appliance store or just about any retail center. EPS is used a lot as packing material. If glue wasn’t so expensive, I’m sure I could piece together enough to build a board, or a boat or a house for that matter. Seriously - there’s a LOT of that stuff that just gets thrown away!

8

Hi DI Scott-

If you have not yet shaped even one board, why go into business?

I would start off at the hobby level, get it all figured out, keep improving until you get to the point where people start saying, “Would you mind making one of those for me…???”

I’m sure that’s not what you wanted to hear =) but anyway, Doc gave a lot of good advice in his post.

Read the archives, lots of great info for free.

9

It is what I wanted to hear :slight_smile:

I do intend to handle it that way. I’m not going to be listing surfboards for sale when I haven’t shaped one yet. I’ll be a hobby guy who buys in bulk i suppose

thanks!

Scott

I should rephrase my original post

“I’ll be building boards in my back garage until I think I can produce a board good enough for selling, then I’ll acquire a tax ID # and all that jazz”

sorry!

10
Quote:

It is what I wanted to hear :slight_smile:

I do intend to handle it that way. I’m not going to be listing surfboards for sale when I haven’t shaped one yet. I’ll be a hobby guy who buys in bulk i suppose

thanks!

Scott

I should rephrase my original post

“I’ll be building boards in my back garage until I think I can produce a board good enough for selling, then I’ll acquire a tax ID # and all that jazz”

sorry!

If you want to start a business…which I think every single American should experience at least once… come up with a good name and some good prints and start selling Tee shirts and screening them. It’s mostly sales and can build you a name. Not only tee shirts…sell hotdogs…or anything and you will soon find out what it’s going to be like selling surfboards without the egos and good old boy network. If you are a naturual and pick up the board end of it quickly and learn to make a quality glassed as well as shaped board that someone will want, sell it at market value with the logo you created and possibly built with Tee shirts or something. else. Never start out as the cheap back yarder, because you will never become the shaper who gets his price. You will always remain the cheap guy. I mentioned other businesses and jobs because selling surfboards will not make you a living more than likely. It’s the small minority that make it that way and it take about ten years and thousands of boards to get really good at it. That time could easily be spent creating something or educating yourself and you can still do boards.

Good luck. Not trying to be too negative, but thats reality. You should still however…follow your passion and your dreams.

11

I have to agree with P Ruckman. And I would add the surfboard shaping and manufacturing business is hard to be profitable and be able to support yourself (rent, car, food maybe a movie and all your overhead for business) at less than 20 boards per month. ANd really to support a family you should be making 50 month. You are at the hobby level in reality. The big boys are doing at least 2000 per year.

Start small, and the money is really in the t-shirts and hoodies not surfboards at mini batches.

12

ah, this all sounds so familiar…

here’s my experience, as a newbie shaper, yeah i admit it. it the first step…lol

buy shaping 101,( glassing 101, and airbrushing 101, for the series )the master shapers video and watch an awful lot- yeah its poly, but the design basics are the same.

or, and this would be much better, take a job in a surfboard factory. even the packing boy gains knowledge by osmosis handling boards. at least go to surfshops/local shapers - you said this was a summer job, i assume you are somewhere else the rest of the year, sorry if that is wrong - and hang out and check out boards. at least, really study the boards you already have.

the bare minimum for a shop is: 2 sets of racks, or a convertible set, as sanding/shaping and glassing hotcoats need different widths/set ups. good ventilation, with a good fan, or a few. good lighting, overhead and board level for shaping/sanding. SAFETY equipment - fireextinguisher, respirator - even with epoxy, etc., power outlets, and CLEANLINESS as in don’t pollute, or you will indeed be only making a few boards.

the rest, epoxy mixes, blanks etc, will fall into place. read all the labels, get/make your eps blanks close tolerance and make tools - like calipers/rail shape tools - to ensure you get a simetrical board. stop and look at your work frequently.

too much paint will stop the epoxy from bonding - personal experience. you have to use acrylic paint. you can always take doc’s advice, and make a good shape/lamination/board and then paint on top of the finished product a la posca pens.

good luck

13

Good advice from P. Ruckman and CarmineSurf. Surprised at the numbers given because those were the ones I had in my head too. Comfort will come at 2000/year. The big struggle is 500 to 1500 because as you add labor, your expenses increase. You run the risk of producing MORE boards but making LESS money.

Your labor wants to become full time to make it worth their while and you will want them full time so they will show up consistently. They may come with talent but you will want to guide them in the way YOU make boards, Typically they will make boards as good as you permit, ie. you better know surfboards pretty darn good. (Thus, the 10 year estimate is realistic). A lot of younger workers have detrimental hobbies; like partying. Forget your “due dates”.

As your labor gets more efficient, the output will increase and, best of all, the quality will increase as well.

Or,

working alone I was able to make up to 300 boards a year (my best was 325). By alone, I mean shape it, glass it, and sand it. I did this parttime/fulltime over a 15 year period. You will be hard-pressed to make more than $50k/year this way, though it is physically possible. In coastal southern California, you are almost homeless at $50k/yr.

You can do other business ventures which is a great idea as the upstart surfboard business will not produce substantial positive cash flow to live off of for a long time.

Lastly, as you reach out for labor, vendors, and help, realize that the surfboard “industry” is SHADY at best. You may glass $3000 worth of work for some shaper to keep your guys busy but then the shaper disappears along with the boards somehow, or you sub your shapes out to another glass shop not knowing they were “practice” for their “new laminator”. Of course the retail end is the hardest, as many surf shops will tell you they have your “check for 12-grand in the mail”, then they disappear. A lot of shops will try to work you over with "consignment’ BS, which is an alarming trend by retailers.

This is not negativity, it is reality. Friends who run other kinds of businesses watch what I go through and they are pretty much blown away. They’ve told me anybody who does well in the surf biz would kick ass in “the real world”.

I guess the “up” side is that you build bitchin’ stuff, instead of fuckin hotdogs, and you do it the way YOU want. You deal with a lot of stoked people (unlike a cop or something) and I literally can surf every day that I want (I’m manufacturing, not retailing). My accountant writes off my trips to Indo as “research and development” as well as the WaveRunner. Eventually you may even become “self-actualized”…

14

This is all great info guys, exactly the stuff I was looking for.

Tax writeoffs seem to be one of the really nice perks of running a business, a definate plus.

As for building boards to make upwards of 50k a year… while that would be nice, of course, i understand that is totally unrealistic at first. I don’t even plan on being able to make enough boards to support myself for any period of time, I would just let that come on its own, if ever. I’m looking at this more as a "On my spare time, I could a. go out and spend money at bars, b. build surfboards which has always intreged me and no matter how much work it is, will definatly have some rewards in it outside of the money part too or c. I can build boards, and with the extra money I make, i can still go out to bars and think of it in a more positive way (Pay myself on the back and say, I made a really great surfboard today, heres a drink, self!)

On the money side, my overhead should be pretty low. If/When i started making more boards then i could handle in my garage, I would probably consider backing off a little and trying to keep it in the garage as long as possible. I don’t think I would want to be brought to subbing my work out, but then again, money talks so who know’s what i’ll do if or when that time comes.

I’m still young, I just turned 21 in January, so i don’t have a wife or kids to support. here in NJ, the cost of living is pretty low (I’m renting a house 3blocks from the beach for 1200/month with 3 other guys)

As for every american starting a business at some point in their lives… I fully agree. I worked for a company selling carparts for a year and I was the top salesman (Not to toot my horn) which was a great learning experience. My pop started/ran a very successful landscape company and is actually my “investor” in the whole project. He’s always been supportive of everything I do, and when I handed him a fairly detailed business plan he offered to front some money–which is great.

Would it be a realistic goal to say I would like to build 50 boards by the end of summer (August/sept.), and sell at least half of them… Along with tshirts and all that jazz? I guess it would come down to how much time i’m putting into it, how much i’m selling for, etc, but as long as I’m making boards and have something to market the Tshirts/apparel on, I guess i’d be pretty stoked!

Thanks again guys. Keep the advice comin’ if you will, this is really eye candy for me and very enjoyable/helpful to read.

Scott

15

Quote: "Would it be a realistic goal to say I would like to build 50 boards by the end of summer (August/sept.), and sell at least half of them… Along with tshirts and all that jazz? I guess it would come down to how much time i’m putting into it, how much i’m selling for, etc, but as long as I’m making boards and have something to market the Tshirts/apparel on, I guess i’d be pretty stoked! "

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Ultimately it all boils down to the quality of the products (surfboards) you produce. You can have a fantastic marketing plan and terrific sales approach- being a great closer is great for sales… but…

Here’s the thing- if the boards suck you will not get repeat business. If the boards suck people will NOT wear the T-shirts/apparel. You can only sell poor quality to the uninformed, and usually only one time to those folks. They will take those boards to the beach and other surfers will see them and let the “uninformed” become “informed” of what they are riding. They won’t come back for more, and they won’t be driving much business your way.

That’s the worst case scenario.

On the other hand, if you understand how to make a board that works very well, looks as good or better than the “other boards” in your area, and is tailored to the guy you’re making it for… well, that would be ideal and you’d have a good shot at selling those 25 boards. You might even sell 50 that way!

Good luck!

16

Do the tee shirts for the business and build up a name. Don’t use the same name as boards at first. You can make money on tees if you learn quick and don’t mind selling. Or…do something else for bucks. If your going to run a business and stay in business, your days in the bar scene are over. Don’t let anyone tell you differently. You can’t do both. If you still have a young persons needs like drinking, partying and chasing tail your going to go through time, stress and most of the extra money you will need for a rainy day…that will come and when you least need it to.

If you have decided you want to be a man and live in a man’s world…your going to have to put away childish things. Not talking down to you, I am sure you already no this, but I have seen it hundreds of times. It always fails…always.

The idea that the surf industry if full of people who get to follow the surf and live this surfing lifestyle is totally false exept for a few lucky ones. The vast majority are working when the surfs up. Even shapers have to get boards finished or the rep starts lagging and then it’s over. Your rep has to be really good for at leat a decade to gain respect.

In the surf business…never believe anything but cash in your hands before a board leaves your posession. don’t ever make exeption one. I am really good friends with Steve Forstall since our youth, I don’t get board one without payment. Thats why we are still friends and have a great working relationship. I was late on a few payments m first time in the surf business with some folks I knew (and I paid) and it strained the relationship. Friendship has nothing to do with discounts of things for free, if it does…who needs those type of friends. Everyone is your bro, your bud, gives you supppport etc. When you shape or own a surf shop. Don’t buy a word of it. They will jump ship at the first sign of impending trouble and talk all kinds of crap behind your back to your competitors.

17

Understandable. Good words.

In all reality, if I started getting enough orders to where I had to stop going out, I know I would. Again, I shouldn’t say I’m starting a business off the bat. I need to gain the knowledge of the craft first, and I understand that is something that is never going to end (I’m sure even you old timers still learn new things every day)

I can’t get hold of the company I was going to buy my first 4 or 6 blanks from, so I may wait a little while longer and save up so I can buy a little more bulk off the bat. I was really looking forward to working with the foam soon, but i guess thats how it goes.

Scott

18

I’ll assume you life in the U.S… get your tax license immediatly!, our tax system encourages us to go into business even if we loose money… if you have another job, list your surfboard business as a loss and get back income tax that your employer is taking out… every board that you make for yourself is a tax write-off, you’re doing product research, it’s amazing how much money you can “loose” in business and still make money… go get your tax license!

19

DI,

Get your tax license if you intend to sell anything. There are a lot of guys in trouble with the man because they didn’t play by the rules. “Randy Duke Cunningham ret. US Navy / Congress”, Dale V. R.I.P, Just don’t draw the wrong kind of attention, if you get good at what ever you do they will find you.

Also, If you have never shaped a board before why not see if you even have the ability. I’ve seen guys that have shaped 100’s of boards that completely suck, and look horrible. Then I’ve seen some guy’s like Shipman who have made a just few boards that look like they have been shaping 1000’s. It’s a dusty, messy, job that’s not for everybody. Everybody should try it once or twice then go give their local shaper a big hug. It’s a blast, and it’s humbling.

Anyhow, go make a few boards and have some fun with the new venture.

-Jay

20

Well for sure. I’m not even 100% sure I’ll be good at shaping. I’m very patient though and I pay attention to detail. I’ve been digging holes and mowing lawns and all other sorts of manual labor for the past 10 years so I don’t mind being dusty and uncomfortable… I usually pick things up rather quickly… I’m not saying I’ll be an Al Merrik or something, but I also don’t think I’ll screw up so bad that i’ll have to give it up. Either way, my fingers are crossed all the way!

Tax ID is pretty cheap anyway, isnt it only 40something bucks?

Scott