That would mean that the best businesses are the ones that steal ideas not the ones that come up with them in the first place.
Does Microsoft ring any bells?
Pretty good business I’d say.
Face it guys, business is fiercely competitive and often lead by unethicals out for a quick dirty buck…this is just par for the course. Lets hope for Karma…
Hey Anomac,
IF someone emulates your planshape or board contours or other unprotected design, they are doing a good job at doing business and the best you can do is be flattered.
The key word in Blakestah’s comment is “unprotected”. Businesses cannot be liable for stealing things that are unprotected.
Blakestah was saying that good businesses are those that can do business just at the line of legality without crossing it. It’s a tough marketplace and businesses will try to push as far as they can. Sad really.
Anyways, the use of someone’s name without their consent is definitely unlawful. So I wonder if the guy copying the fins is using a different spelling. Like those knockoffs from China (i.e. Bucci, Elvi’s, Golex, Kalvin Clein). Maybe he’s spelling it as McGoy, MacCoy, Mick Coy, MyCoy, etc…
Cheers,
Rio
… Don’t give him three chances to hit the ball…just drill him in the earhole on the first pitch.
Why not start off by sending them a whopper of a bill for using his name on the ads, then follow it up with a Cease & Desist.
BTW: none of my comments were directed at Blakestah. I respect his opinions and wisdome. Just wanted to make that clear. This was just a post of my personal thoughts on this. I noticed they took their ads out off the place I saw them.
That would mean that the best businesses are the ones that steal ideas not the ones that come up with them in the first place.
Does Microsoft ring any bells?
Pretty good business I’d say.
Face it guys, business is fiercely competitive and often lead by unethicals out for a quick dirty buck…this is just par for the course. Lets hope for Karma…
“Good” or “successful”? Or don’t you make that distinction? Even if you think that is unrealistic or frivolous, Microsoft faces some significant challenges to their business model in the short and medium term future, many of which are a direct result of their lack of imagination. And I write that as a 57-year-old who has a large part of his retirement in mutual funds that are heavily invested in MS stock. Ideally karma would be immediate and inevitable. It is comforting just to think that it does seem to work, sometimes.
-Samiam
We have discussed surf shops or other craftsmen stealing someone else’s designs in surfboards before, but what about something like a fins which is a unique shape thought up by the designer and put out on the market under his name?
I use this example because there is a surf shop in California that has ripped off Mccoy’s gullwings surfboard fin designs and some other Mccoy designs and is marketing them. To rub salt in a little deeper they are even using Geoff’s name to sell them.
I saw that same fin on Ebay and i felt very dissapointed. Usually when i search for Horan or McCoy items on ebay you’re the only one offering them (that tinted board designed for the wingkeel makes me cry each time i watch it, i’ll have one, one day).
I knew you were the one with Geoff’s permissions to sell his things there, and since TrueAmes is the company producing the fin, i wonder if they also produce Greenough’s fins without permissions from George Greenough and if they really respect his designs or if they just use Greenough’s name not paying him royalties and even changing his foils to an easier (cheaper) foil to produce…
Sharing knowledge is great, taking some curves from outlines and ideas from other fins is what make us evolute but ripping off others product and even using their name to make money is very sad at least.
By the way, i have some of the true McCoy’s fins and i love them.
Coque.
Ames lives in the same town where Greenough grew up - I sincerely doubt he would rip George off and get away with it for all these years.
And, fin producers like True Ames have no problem replicating any foil you desire. You gotta understand Chuck has probably foiled 1000 times more fins than George…anything George can do, Ames can do 10 times faster. There’s a certain efficiency that the pro fin makers achieve that is remarkable.
Of course, Ames fins are no longer made in southern California, so who knows now, but Ames was the only fin maker offering Greenough-named fins for years.
Hi Blakestah, the truth is that those doubts came to me way back when i had in my hands couple of fins foiled by George and some foiled by Paul Gross and watching the difference with the ones TrueAmes sells. Also, i think once there was a post by Paul gross saying that TrueAmes weren’t true to the original foiling.
The fins i had in my hands where thicker than an standard fin box and i know this takes more time to foil than if you make a fin thinner than the fin box.
I’m not saying TruAmes can’t do that by any means, i’m just saying it’s easier and cheaper doing it that way…
Anyway, i could be mistaken on GG’s, but i still don’t like their move on the McCoy’s.
Coque.
Coque,
I spoke with Chuck. I don’t think he shorts anyone any royalties. I think he was asked to make fin for someone, made it and now considers the matter to be that of those that contracted him. I doubt he even knew it was a Mccoy fin at the time. Still…he now knows it’s Geoff’s fin now. Glad to see your still haning it at sways coque. One day when I get over there, you can give me a tour of Mundaka.
I didn’t say the shop or where the fins were because I didn’t want to give anyone else that didn’t already know the heads up of where to buy the Mccoy copies. I am glad there are others out there that saw it like I did.
You’re welcome anyday Solo!
If you’re thinking of Mundaka buy a couple swords or even some mechanics weapons to kill 200 surfers before you paddle out… Now serious, last time i went to Mundaka was small and really, really, i mean really overcrowed. Some years back it had it’s days when the sweell got big at night you might get a crowd free session when the sun came out, but now a days with internet a forecast and everything is getting harder.
Anyway we still have great food, great wine, nice girls and one thousand waves more.
I check Swaylocks almost every day, but i don’t really have the time i had before to post and i’m not updated to help others in all that new stuff about vacums, epoxy, sandwich, etc…
We’re restoring a home now and i’ll have there a shape room, so i’ll spend more time shaping and i’ll be back stronger, ha!
Thanks for keeping Swaylocks alive.
Coque.
to my knowledge two guys that had ames make fins do not get any $ rom him, and in one case did not have permission(though that has been resolved.) and really, what is the royalty amount per fin-20 cents or so?in other words, kinda not worth the hassle for the designer…
Can someone who steals ideas make a good business? Does the name Bill Gates ring a bell?
In the past, buying the kind of protection you need to protect an idea in the surf world was not worth the profits you’d see from that idea. But this may change as the sport grows. As of today a $5000 patent is not worth the paper it’s written on.
McCoy aside, Simon got next to nothing from the three.
Quote:IF someone emulates your planshape or board contours or other unprotected design, they are doing a good job at doing business and the best you can do is be flattered.
Huh?
I get the flattered bit but doing a good job at doing business? That is so far left field. That would mean that the best businesses are the ones that steal ideas not the ones that come up with them in the first place.
This would stiffle creativity and experimentation and we would all end up riding the same bords. EXACTLY the same boards. A world of Nuggets!
Gates never copied something, he would just buy ideas, for a tiny weeny miniscule percentage of it’s worth.
I use a Mac
I’ve been to China a few times and up there it is to the power of ten. They do not even worry about changing the names, no misspellings, no typos. It’s still Gucci, Rolex etc…
And your right, it is sad, very sad when the only way peopple can be creative is to think of new and interesting ways to ‘rip’ some one else off.
He sighs and yearns for a simpler life. But with telecommunications, Airplanes and digital music.
peace
I think people are missing the big picture.
Our nation created laws to encourage people to share innovation. When the innovation occurred in the realm of expression, that expression was protected by copyright. When the innovation was invention, the expression was protected by patents. And when the innovation was marked with a unique identifier that otherwise lacked market value, the expression was protected by trademark.
If it ain’t protected, it is public domain, and there is nothing wrong with using it in an unprotected sense. Throughout the shortboard revolution shapers shared and shared alike, and no one got horribly bent out of shape when Hynson’s down rails were taken by everyone else, Loehr’s concaves became the industry standard in the 80s, Simon’s thruster became the standard, McCoy’s planshape became the standard, etc.
Now, using someone else’s name/identifier would be an unethical trademark violation. But a fin shape…very little protection afforded there. Only a few patents I know of.
People who aspire to innovate should spend AT LEAST some time familiarizing themselves with the way the world spins, and not get bent out of shape when Stretch makes a big name using Quads that started as someone else’s unprotected shapes. That’s the way the cookie crumbles, as they say.
Surfing exists today in a world with very few patents…the ones that exist afford barely any protection because work-alikes already exist. Copyright is worthless for boards, that leaves only trademark.
In a world in which the strongest IP protection is in trademark, and a product’s wholesale price is 75% human labor, Asia is the future.
Whose Idea was it any way?
…MINE…
and everybody is copying me.
AND I’m so pissed I’m gonna drop in on everybody and
not only steel their Ideas,I am gonna make e’m work.
sam reid said to lunchmeat,he’ll quote him at the drop of a hat
‘’‘There isnt nothing new,just new to you’‘’
every fin shape every tail shape every nose concave has been done.
at best thse elements are compiled by “INOVATORS”
alas that is like to make new again
in alternative combinations
for any ego
YES EGO TRIPPING
blow hard to take random credit
for this ancient discipline
is stilted and egocentric.
the quiet 'inovators know that in their soul
that they owe ALL this to some one
no way can any jerk
that started surfing at 35 years old
after moving from upstate
michigan to a beach town and started mulling over
dezigne preencipples
lay claim to anything more
than their personal epiphanies
I have been patiently waiting
for so many people to catch up for so long
when they finally get it
10 20 30 years later
then act like they are pissed
because they invented
the fin ,or the rail or the nose…
has a tendency to irk my sensibilities.
show respect for our predecessors like
the velzys and dont con yourself
that velzy didnt learn from the guys that came before him
and on and on back to the single cell organism
we ARE MIMICS
we learn and teach that way
original thought Hah
tell it to the
patent office?
just like patent leather,the shine wears off in seven years
and then it’s suede again…
…ambrose…
remember
I invented the single celled animal
every time you recognise one you owe me 34 cents
I think people are missing the big picture.
Our nation created laws to encourage people to share innovation. When the innovation occurred in the realm of expression, that expression was protected by copyright. When the innovation was invention, the expression was protected by patents. And when the innovation was marked with a unique identifier that otherwise lacked market value, the expression was protected by trademark.
If it ain’t protected, it is public domain, and there is nothing wrong with using it in an unprotected sense. Throughout the shortboard revolution shapers shared and shared alike, and no one got horribly bent out of shape when Hynson’s down rails were taken by everyone else, Loehr’s concaves became the industry standard in the 80s, Simon’s thruster became the standard, McCoy’s planshape became the standard, etc.
Now, using someone else’s name/identifier would be an unethical trademark violation. But a fin shape…very little protection afforded there. Only a few patents I know of.
People who aspire to innovate should spend AT LEAST some time familiarizing themselves with the way the world spins, and not get bent out of shape when Stretch makes a big name using Quads that started as someone else’s unprotected shapes. That’s the way the cookie crumbles, as they say.
Surfing exists today in a world with very few patents…the ones that exist afford barely any protection because work-alikes already exist. Copyright is worthless for boards, that leaves only trademark.
In a world in which the strongest IP protection is in trademark, and a product’s wholesale price is 75% human labor, Asia is the future.
Good post Blakestah…Greg touched on the real issue. The $5000 patent is not worth the money when compared to the likely profit. I still think its ripping someone off, it’s just done because the lawyers and goverment have made it expensive to protect yourself. Who do you think came up with that system…the small business guy? On everything being copied…I have never seen a gullwing fin and I have been surfing thirty years.
As for you last sentence on Asia being the future. Your probably right as disgusting as it is…but I tire Americans that say they are against communism, Slave labor, child labor, the sex slave trade and countries that mistreat their people etc… and give up trying to stop their own country from dealing with these type countries to make a buck. If business is all about money then why have any morals at all? Why not simply embrace every dog for himself. The bad thing is none of us get much choice about it because I suspect 75% of what we own has something produced over there. It’s frankly little different than America owning slaves in the early 1800s…we just don’t actually own them anymore…we use other countries slaves, misfortune, and low standards in the place of slavery. I am not saying this to be selfrighteous either, but simply to convey a thought.
Can someone who steals ideas make a good business? Does the name Bill Gates ring a bell?
. . .
McCoy aside, Simon got next to nothing from the three.
Yep. Solo has some good words, and of course Greg has words of widsom and infinite experience. And also some other good input from some others.
imo - -
Good design is being innovative, good marketing is being a good copycat and putting a profitable ‘pet rock’ twist on it.
Didn’t we all get into surfboard design to serve our fellah bros? Put 'em on boards that we think will work, and work better than the boards the local shapers are putting them on? That’s why “I” did it. Certainly not to get rich. And data about that? Information sharing. That’s the way I look at it. Open, honest, and inviting. Stoke. Help a bro feel the tingle of making his/her own stick. Even ugly, that’s not the point.
Btw, I’m protecting myself from the more sensitive stuff, and a lawyer at the ready! heh heh heh j/k. (Just kidding.)
Cover your azz guys (and gals keeping Swaylock’s Coed).
Solo, yes, in dollars and cents. But sometimes you just gotta defend yourself no matter the price or the intangible costs. When you’re right, you’re right. Period. Honesty and integrity in business are worth defending, so few people have it these days, much less defend it.
Ok guys, this idea of writing to the person who is stealing some ones name , M’coy is a big boy let him sort it out.I feel it is wrong and should be punished but that is not up to me. as for using other peoples ideas well that is probably wrong but imitation is the sincerest form of flatery. To dodge copyright it only has to be a percentage different ( I think 10%) so in the case of the anderson thruster if all he did was 3 fins how different was it to the Richards twin or the brewer gun. I have been guilty in the past of taking a template of a repair job if it was a deadly shape off of a reputable shaper, Sam Egan springs to mind.
Ok guys, this idea of writing to the person who is stealing some ones name , M’coy is a big boy let him sort it out.I feel it is wrong and should be punished but that is not up to me. as for using other peoples ideas well that is probably wrong but imitation is the sincerest form of flatery. To dodge copyright it only has to be a percentage different ( I think 10%) so in the case of the anderson thruster if all he did was 3 fins how different was it to the Richards twin or the brewer gun. I have been guilty in the past of taking a template of a repair job if it was a deadly shape off of a reputable shaper, Sam Egan springs to mind.
Again…a fin that has never been done before is different than a surfboard bottom or plan shap. Most all of that stuff is the same and common. As for me writing a letter to those guys, it’s not my place. Geoff and I have been dealing together for awhile, I forwarded the information to him and he is dealing with it. Thats the end of it other than us writing our ideas back and forth. Which is what sways is all about.