Stealing others designs....a personal observation

It’s been awhile since I posted a thread, but I felt this one needed to be posted, since it kind of hits home with me.

We have discussed surf shops or other craftsmen stealing someone else’s designs in surfboards before, but what about something like a fins which is a unique shape thought up by the designer and put out on the market under his name?

I use this example because there is a surf shop in California that has ripped off Mccoy’s gullwings surfboard fin designs and some other Mccoy designs and is marketing them. To rub salt in a little deeper they are even using Geoff’s name to sell them. I would call them out, but I don’t want to give them any more publicity on it than they already have. The problem with this type of thief is they know a lawsuit is not likely as the cost would not be worth the trouble to sue. Yes…it’s partially an issue for me because I have marketed and sold “real” Mccoy products for a few years, but I got to tell you it’s mostly been because I believe in Geoff’s designs and outlook on surfing in general and not about the money. I have a day job.

This is not the only incident of Geoff having his products ripped off without being given money or even the credit for a design. I would say the Lazor Zap was one of the most copied surfboards during the late seventies and early eighties and even the modern surfboard outline is Geoff’s planshape. That planshape actually changed surfings performance history along with Simon putting three fins on them.

Were someone to approach Geoff with a legitimate business deal and offer to make the fins and pay him a royalty then maybe Geoff would do something different than he is already, but to simply take something very unique like Geoff’s gullwing fins and steal them them for your department store surf shop makes you a skunk.

The sad thing is this has been the way of our industry for years. Shop owners always looking for the next lie to sell or shapers who can’t cut the mustard in design… steal something from someone else and market as their own. Look at one of the popout companies; they create molds for certain shapers and if that shapers quits the program they take his molds and sell or give them to one of their distributors to use with their own label. If that does not work the shop owner finds a shapers design he likes…buys one…has it molded…puts his name on the stringer and in ads and sells it as…his design. Some of this stuff is not simply old designs everyone has copied, but brand new designs or designs unique to certain shapers. It’s not one shaper making by hand his version of a design (which I don’t really have an issue with per say) but making an actual copy of someone’s design and taking credit for it themselves.

Surfing is one of those sports where many brag and overestimate their ability or find some importance about associating with those of greater ability in surfing or designing. It’s one of the few where novice participants can actually get away with this without much ridicule…so I guess thats why some have the need to take from those of greater talent and ability and try and associate themselves with it instead of forging their own unique path as Geoff has done.

We have gone from a sport of kings to a sport of punks for way too many. Those that make this sport unique in the area of design remain in the minority and will probably never get the proper credit or money for their efforts.

I saw that too.

you sure they didn’t have his permission because they have his name splatter all over the fin ad.

They seem to be a reputable company so I’m surprised.

then again I guess I shouldn’t be look at SurfSource and the Probox incident

I know they don’t have permission because I E mailed Geoff and his business partner told me that she didn’t want to tell him and that she was sick over it. I guess it’s possible that I don’t know anything about some agreement, but it’s unlikely from my conversations with both the surf shop and the guy making the fins. I have had a working relationship with Geoff for a few years and he is usually more than straight forward about his feelings with things and he didn’t bring it up the last time I spoke with him. I don’t think he is going to be very happy about it when he finds out.

Time for some of that old-time vigilante-ism, seems to me…

It’s not my business but if it there was no agreement, I would invest a few hundred dollars to have an attorney write a nasty letter. It might not get them to stop making the fins but it will probably get Geoff’s name off the fins.

Lee,

I agree that would be a good method. I don’t think Geoff’s name is on the fins…they use his name in their advertising. Says…Mccoy fins made for the Mccoy nugget surfboards. Of course I am not speaking for Geoff…it’s simply a personal observation by me. He is someone I respect and enjoy working with. If I were a betting man…I would bet that Geoff does not like it one bit.

Huey must be spitting about all those car manufacturers who stole his circle design for their wheels without paying royalties.

Personally, I thank him for the circle every time I make a surfboard tail.

:frowning:

the one thing that is a greater form of flattery

than being copied,

is someone defending your originality.

to those with their intentions in the right place …kudos…

the earth shaking revelation

onto st.geoff

when the burnt stump yeilded

the whtcha me callit fin

and he decended from the dust cloud east of Angourie

is awaiting assigned scripture

until then these pranksters

running about posing they got the stuff

before the ‘‘real goods’’

are unleashed with the fanfare

and whoopla deemed appropriate

is simply deploreable.

The Massive fortune

being raked in

world wide

should be frozen

in the bank accouonts

in the caymans ,zurich,hertzgovinia,prague,and denver.

access to the accts in burma,little rock and waco

are waiting for the acct numbers

upon auditing these funds should be

earmarked for some serious arguing and cajoling

and mebe a couple o’ tantrums just for good luck.

Storming the Bastille could be a swell event to plan for next july.

hedgebe jezus a class action hanging might be in order.

the next person to copy my silly walk…

I will not be responsible for my response

I can just see myself flying off the handle.

this copying thing just gets me riled up .

I probobly wouldnt feel so bad if they just got it right once in a while.

usually they do it wrong and say

it a copy.nothing more insulting than a crappy coppy

…aloha…

try copy aloha

try get it right

…ambrose…

fight in’ over ficticous money

ads are free in the magazines

this month…

can you think of a quick product?

mebe a beach champagne glass set

made from coconut shell

or a revolutionary fin

kinda like

the one that made John Baresford Tipton

THE MILLIONAIRE

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It’s not my business but if it there was no agreement, I would invest a few hundred dollars to have an attorney write a nasty letter. It might not get them to stop making the fins but it will probably get Geoff’s name off the fins.

Why pay a lawyer? It just encourages them :-} There appear to be plenty of web sites with pre-written form letters originally written by lawyers, and this seems to be a pretty classic case of infringement (cease and desist letter). There are also books of similar sample letters at any public library. Pretty easy to customize such a letter and put a “cc:” at the bottom with some lawyerly sounding name (e.g. “cc: John C. Cochran, Esq.” - I don’t think he can still sue me :slight_smile: If the goal is to let the infringing party know that you are aware of their actions, and think that you are in contact with a lawyer, this tactic can be effective - I’ve used it. It’s considerably cheaper than paying a law firm $400-500 to have a $20 per hour paralegal clerk write one.

-Samiam

It’s the letterhead that’s the scary part. If you are going to fake or steal letterhead to save a few bucks then you’re not much better than the guy you are trying to scare.

I’ve used others stuff. How about Simon’s three? I’ve had others rip me off (3 fin concaves, Rail channels, some other stuff). You have no rights if you don’t protect yourself and the laws are pretty clear on this. My veiw always has been anything that comes from me is a gift to the sport, one that I owe at least that much to.

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It’s the letterhead that’s the scary part. If you are going to fake or steal letterhead to save a few bucks then you’re not much better than the guy you are trying to scare.

No, no, no, you don’t fake or steal a lawyer’s letterhead. That would be masochistic, at best. You send your own letter, but phrase it as if a lawyer advised you what to write, and put a “cc:” at the bottom to a lawyer (real or imagined).

"Dear Sir:

I have contacted your company on three occasions over as many months seeking the return of funds remitted to you for merchandise ordered and paid for on May 13 of this year that was never delivered. I am advised that your failure to return these funds consitutes fraud, and is prosecutable, under Article IV, Section 14:7:1a of the General Administrative Code of the State of Idaho. I am further advised to give you one more opportunity to correct this matter before taking it up with the State Attorney General’s office.

Sincerely,

Sam I. Am

cc: Mordechai L. Weasel, Esq."

That’s a pretty lame example, but it conveys the general idea.

-Samiam

Unfortunately I deal with this crap all the time and the only time anyone stands up and takes notice is when the letter is from an attorney. Don’t give him three chances to hit the ball…just drill him in the earhole on the first pitch.

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Unfortunately I deal with this crap all the time and the only time anyone stands up and takes notice is when the letter is from an attorney. Don’t give him three chances to hit the ball…just drill him in the earhole on the first pitch.

I believe it’s a real YMMV deal. If you are dealing with a company with a competent law firm on retainer, my letter would just give them a chuckle. If it’s a small operator it can be different. Anyone who receives such a letter and isn’t certain has to decide to: a] throw it away on the presumption that it means nothing, b] go pay a lawyer $300/hour to (hopefully) tell him that, or c] do what you ask in the letter. If c] is reasonable and something that he should have done in the first place, it may become the easiest thing to do. That’s really the key to this kind of stuff. You need to convince the other party that doing what you want is the easiest path to take, and do so at the least cost to yourself. Any other consideration just gets in the way.

-Samiam

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I’ve used others stuff. How about Simon’s three? I’ve had others rip me off (3 fin concaves, Rail channels, some other stuff). You have no rights if you don’t protect yourself and the laws are pretty clear on this. My veiw always has been anything that comes from me is a gift to the sport, one that I owe at least that much to.

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the response. It’s probaby happened to all of you designers, tinkers, and craftsmen…when it’s so blatant…it pretty disgusting. Especially since Geoff will not get to benefit from the dollars generated by these people using his name. I asked him one time about being copied and if it was flattering and he told me that saying must have come from someone who liked ripping others off. I guess like everything, there are many ways to look at things.

Find a lawyer who will help you out (not me, as I know nothing about patent infringement) and send a stern letter with a copy of the complaint attached (not yet filed). You’d be surprised - there are lawyers who will “help” people without requesting money in exhange. If they don’t immediately reverse position . . . they’re crazy.

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Find a lawyer who will help you out (not me, as I know nothing about patent infringement) and send a stern letter with a copy of the complaint attached (not yet filed). You’d be surprised - there are lawyers who will “help” people without requesting money in exhange. If they don’t immediately reverse position . . . they’re crazy.

Yah, I knew one of them once. A couple of years later he was disbarred. Now I don’t know the reason for disbarment, nor am I suggesting that there was any connection to his pro bono work; simple correlation should never be assumed as cause, but… While such lawyers are out there, finding one can be a problem. Unlike public defenders for criminal offences, I am unaware of any organized directories of pro bono civil attorneys (although these may exist). I also suspect that like public defenders, the “no charge” provision will depend strictly on a means test, not on the more abstract concept of whether a person believes they can afford to spend discretionary funds on lawyers - those are entirely different considerations.

-Samiam

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I’ve used others stuff. How about Simon’s three? I’ve had others rip me off (3 fin concaves, Rail channels, some other stuff). You have no rights if you don’t protect yourself and the laws are pretty clear on this. My veiw always has been anything that comes from me is a gift to the sport, one that I owe at least that much to.

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the response. It’s probaby happened to all of you designers, tinkers, and craftsmen…when it’s so blatant…it pretty disgusting. Especially since Geoff will not get to benefit from the dollars generated by these people using his name. I asked him one time about being copied and if it was flattering and he told me that saying must have come from someone who liked ripping others off. I guess like everything, there are many ways to look at things.

There are rules to the game.

The rules are the rules of business and law, and not of personal integrity. The people who play the game best, and stay within the rules, win.

If someone uses your name or even the name of your fin (and its design), it is a trademark issue. If you do not defend it, the name rapidly becomes worthless.

If someone uses your patent, they are violating law and can be pursued fairly easily and profitably.

IF someone emulates your planshape or board contours or other unprotected design, they are doing a good job at doing business and the best you can do is be flattered.

If you misunderstand the rules of the game, or intentionally handicap yourself to avoid the designs of others that work, you are only hurting yourself.

IF someone emulates your planshape or board contours or other unprotected design, they are doing a good job at doing business and the best you can do is be flattered.

If you misunderstand the rules of the game, or intentionally handicap yourself to avoid the designs of others that work, you are only hurting yourself.

Frankly I am still trying to figure out how stealing or copying something is good business. It may be profitable, but your still stealing something. I agree with you that shapers should probably consider it par the course because that type of stuff cannot be patented. As for intentionally handicapping yourself, why not simply create your own designs. We are not talking concave on a board bottom here, but a unique fin outline that someone put alot of thought into. The anything for a buck mentality is reality, but it still sickens me at times. Also…most folks don’t like it when something cost them money personally. They will then rationalize how it’s not the same thing. So…I don’t think it’s misunderstanding the rules of the game, it’s realizing that the game has few rules. You get just as much justice as you can afford and there is little integrity among people when it comes to personal recogniton or money. Personally, I think there is still a place for a good old fashioned ass whipping. It will not stop a weasle, but it sure makes you feel better. Then again, we live in the age of the weasle.

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IF someone emulates your planshape or board contours or other unprotected design, they are doing a good job at doing business and the best you can do is be flattered.

Huh?

I get the flattered bit but doing a good job at doing business? That is so far left field. That would mean that the best businesses are the ones that steal ideas not the ones that come up with them in the first place.

This would stiffle creativity and experimentation and we would all end up riding the same bords. EXACTLY the same boards. A world of Nuggets!