Beginner shaper/designer here. Board 5. 2 hand shapes, 2 machine cut. Next board will be machine cut and is something different from the first 4.
Since I know didley about the nuances of rocker, when hand shaping I have followed the advice found here and just worked with the rocker already in the blank, i.e. pick a blank that has the rocker that is suited to the application. Skin it, add some concaves or whatever and go. The end result is generally, rail rocker that is consistent with the original blank but stringer rocker (assuming concaves) less than the original blank.
When designing a board for machine cutting, it occurred to me that the approach can be the opposite. In AKU Shaper software and I assume in others, you define rocker along the stringer. So if you define your rocker using guide points from a known blank, your stringer rocker will not change even when adding concaves. For example, adding single concave in the software does not change thickness or curve along the stringer like it does in hand shaping. The software keeps thickness and curve of the stringer fixed but drops the rail line down relative to the stringer. This seems to me to be the opposite of what occurs when hand shaping.
You can however, display the rail rocker. So with some effort you could work the rail rocker to match the guide points from the original rocker in the blank. The result being closer to what would be achieved when shaping by hand.
So if your goal is to “work with the rocker in the blank” using software, should you match the rail or stringer rocker to the blank?
First off, I’m a hand shaper, and have no experience in shaping programs. That being said, take this for what its worth.
The stringer rocker governs. Design that first. After you understand the curve you are after, start thinking about the rail rocker.
The idea I’m trying to get across is that it is a mistake to decide “I’m going to have 1/8” concave in the tail" and make that your focus. All three parts, stringer and rail rocker and contour, need to be considered at the same time, before you even touch the blank.
I draw out on paper the stringer rocker. Then I draw out on paper the rail rocker. Depending on how the two curves stray away from each other will naturally create concave, flat, or vee.
If you go about it in a whittling way, where you skin the board, get the rocker like you wanted, and then try to add contours, you just changed the rocker you wanted into something you didn’t.
When you select the blanks curve, you select the blank that has the curve of the outside line of both stringer and rail rocker.
I get that. And it makes sense. But given that most beginners lack the knowledge (and maybe some not so beginners) of what rockers and thus bottom contours they really need to achieve a specific goal, you have to start somewhere. That is why sticking with the rocker that came with the blank advice made sense to me.
In my case, I want to make a “speed egg” type board for use in slopey over head surf. I have a USB 610a. This is a low rockered blank. I picked the blank for that reason. Yes, I had decided upfront on bottom contour but I recognize the impact that it will have on rocker. I just dont know if its good or bad or if I should try to keep the stringer or rail rocker consistent with the blank rocker if I want to follow the stick to the blank rocker advice.
Perhaps there is no real answer to my question other than, “it depends”. And of course, I am not limited to the blank rocker. I just figure that the guy who designed the blank knows a lot more about rocker than I do.
Use your hands if you’re a new shaper… there is no reason to CNC something unless you’re making 300 boards a day. The best way to learn the curves and nuances of shaping is to have your hands on it every step of the way, for dozens and dozens of board. And you’re right, it does “depend” on what you want to get out of the board. When you’re thinking about rocker, you need to be able to imagine the way the water will flow over the board… imagine where your feet will be while surfing what waves, whether you want a tail you can stomp on before you start to shed speed or one that slows down with the slightest back foot pressure… Are the waves you’re surfing going to be steep? If so, lots of nose rocker helps - but where do you want it? Do you want a faster board? Make the rocker more gradual and smooth from the middle of the board up through the nose - Want a board that will plow water like a dog? Keep it mostly flat and put all the rocker in the from 6". Then how much flat section do you want in the middle, if any, to produce speed down the line?
All of that is stuff to think about when tuning your rocker - I like to do it by hand with my planer. When deciding where to base your blank rocker, think about what kind of bottom you’ll have. I’m a fan of “Spiral Vee” meaning it’s a single concave throughout, with a slight double out the back and rails that have more rear rocker than the stringer line (creating a “vee” in the back). If you have a rail line that matches your stringer line, you don’t need to worry - but if you do something like what I described, do the thickest portion of the rocker with the planer into the blank (or buy a blank to match that). - for example my stringer line has less rocker than my rails - so I got a blank that was mostly flat out the back, tuned a slight rocker into the stringer first, then tuned the rail rocker before working in the concaves. On the other hand, if you’re shaping a board with a deep single concave that’s flatter along the stringer than the rails, you’d want to match the blank to the rail rocker before turning the stringer.
I’m pretty sure I just completely over-complicated that by trying to put it into words, much easier to understand as information rattling around in my head. If anyone else can be a little more eloquent go for it - but if you take anything home from what I’ve said, avoid CAD until you absolutely need to. AKUshaper is great for making outline templates (and rocker templates if you’re hotwiring your own eps or cutting stringers) - it’s also good for getting a custom blank cut if you want too, but do all the tuning by hand - you’ll thank yourself
Just to add another thought to it all. Do you know the difference between concave and see in the tail?
Take two boards with the same stringer rocker. One board will have flatter rail rocker in the middle, and make the curve of the rail rocker behind the fins. That board will have concave in the tail.
Take the next board, and start the rail rocker curve forward of the fins. Since that board had its rail curve start earlier, it will rise higher by the end, creating vee.
I’m of the opinion that half the talk about concave vs. Vee vs. flat is misunderstood. Maybe its really all about the different curves of the bottom, and where they happen. The bottom contour is a side effect of how you placed your curves on the stringer and rail.
Well said. I have really enjoyed making the boards that I hand shaped and see the value in it. But I am not home in my own shop. Poor us, we spend the winters in a surf rich tropical environment. But the only space I have to work in down here is a car port. Its windy, and full of low light shadows. I could probably shape a board there but its far from ideal. That said, I can walk down the beach to a high tech board factory with the AKU. They can cut it and I can take it back to the car port and glass it. This appeals to me far more than buying a new board every time I want one. Plus its a great way to spend your time when its flat.
So that said, I will be using the machine on this one and maybe a couple more this winter. I guess I will try to get my hands on some similar boards and try to come up with a rocker that makes sense to me.
LbatBeach If there isa shaping machine in town then someone hasa shaping room. Nothing wrong with working in the car port. You could work on light setup and work at night.
The software I believe expedites the learning curve. You might enjoy checking it out. You can manipulate stringer rocker and bottom contours… V, concave whatever, and render a 3D image of the board in wireframe or curves enabling you to immediately see the impact on rail rocker. As I iterate through the process, because of my lack of experience, I have to rely on my eye to tell me what looks right and what doesnt. Sometimes its very obvious, sometimes not.
I truly do appeciate the thought that there is no substitute for getting your hands dirty. Shaping is an art layered with lots of science. But I would argue that you can learn the fundamentals of design very effectively using the software. There is an old saying in construction and that is, “if you can draw it, you can build it”.
Perhaps the better question is not can I build it, but will it work? By using software, I have a basic understanding of how bottom contours effect rocker in the stringer and rails. But I have very little understanding of what bottom countours and rocker combinations actually work in the real world. Thus my original question.
Could be a true statement, but I’ve worked wioth some pretty clueless architects! But back to computers and surfboards, using a computer surfboard program, and you aren’t really drawing it, the computer is. So back to the original question of what rocker to use…
My current shape has a 40’ radius in the tail, 26’ radius in the middle, and a 6’ radius in the entry for the stringer rocker. The rail rocker is 26’ tail rocker, 40’ middle rocker, and 6’ entry rocker. That will give you a flat entry and a nice 1/4 concave out the tail. Notice all I did was flip the rail and stringer rockers? Draw that out full size and find the blank that works with it.
Could be a true statement, but I’ve worked wioth some pretty clueless architects! But back to computers and surfboards, using a computer surfboard program, and you aren’t really drawing it, the computer is. So back to the original question of what rocker to use…
My current shape has a 40’ radius in the tail, 26’ radius in the middle, and a 6’ radius in the entry for the stringer rocker. The rail rocker is 26’ tail rocker, 40’ middle rocker, and 6’ entry rocker. That will give you a flat entry and a nice 1/4 concave out the tail. Notice all I did was flip the rail and stringer rockers? Draw that out full size and find the blank that works with it.
I like that. Practical and straight forward. Do you have a large protractor to draw it out? Please elaborate. Also do you make a template or jig to then set on your blank while shaping so as to know when you have hit the magic numbers?
I cheat and draw it on AutoCAD, and then print it out on a large format printer. Then glue it to plywood. Cut it out, and you either have a rocker stick, or for EPS your hotwire guide. If you don’t have access to a large format printer, you can take it in PDF format to any blueprinter, and for about $10 they will print it for you.
The other option is tape measure as a large compass.
Going back to the days of Vee, the stringer rocker was a generally accepted 3 stage rocker, a decelerating curve from the nose going back to smooth water intake , a flattish section for front foot speed when you put the pressure on it.
And then a low but a stable release curve in the tail to allow for better takeoffs and acceleration out of turns.
Due to the Vee and board width in the middle, the rail rocker was a greater variation and created a curvier radius but with the tail planshape pulled in the rail rocker straightened out for better projection.
The more pulled in ‘no- nose’ outline at the front, the less Vee was needed. And the Vee created a natural thickness and bouyancy in the centre and tail of the board that made rail to rail turning very easy.
You can always fall back on hand drawing the rocker curve, on a piece of wood or Masonite, then cutting it out and hand/eyeball trueing it. Takes a little time, and thought, but worth the effort. Lots of ways to get there, eh?
This is just plain false (not trying to be rude, just blunt)… the software expidites the process of volume-shaping, however it hinders the learning curve… it’s like wanting to be an artist, and just jumping into graphic design having never touched a pencil and paper. Is it possible? Yes, absolutely - however, you will always have a hindered, handicapped understanding of the shaping process. Not to mention, having a board CNC’d will change nothing as far as not wanting to use your carport to glass, because you would still have to sand down all the ridges and clean up the shape, and if you’re doing that in the carport, why not just do the whole thing? The only other option would be to have the machinist clean up the ridges for you, at which point you’re no longer “shaping a board” - you’re just ordering a custom from another shaper and glassing it yourself.
Not to mention, glassing is by far the dirtier, more toxic portion of the process
Shush, you are correct in that the shaper software does not help in learning how to shape. But it is still an excellent tool for learning how curves interact and their effect on surfboard design. With 3D rendering, this is not even debatable.
CNC cutting seems to be about as polarizing as SUPs around here. For me its just another tool in the kit. The guys in the shop let me use their room in between boards to finish sand my machine cut blank. They do not have availability to let me shape boards there. They are running a business. I am not. And oddly enough, they are not producing volume replicas. Almost all of their work is custom.
The bottom line is that my goal is to make a surfboard that works, to learn something each time, and to have fun doing it. Not necessarily to become a great shaper. Hopefully I will become competent in time. And I have the utmost respect for those of you who are. Its the learning and doing that is just so much fun. As a beginner, I learn a ton every time I make a board regardless if I mowed the foam myself or diddled with the computer for hours to get a shape that looks good to me. So if its convenient for me to hand shape, I will do so. If its not, I will have it machined. And I am just fine with that.
Very debatable… try doing a bat-tail or fish in aku shaper, mess up one slice slightly and see how it screws up your whole shape… You may think you’re learning something every time you make something in Aku, but you aren’t. You’re learning what works within a universe with strictly set rules and imaginary lines - it does not account for ideas and curves that is wasn’t pre-programmed to account for. Yes, it is a great too, but that’s exactly what it is. And believe me I promise you it will hinder your learning and will absolutely not advance your ability or understanding whatsoever, unless you intend to advance your ability and understanding of how ackushaper works… Once you’re in the real world, all bets are off… What you’re essentially doing is like saying every time you play madden on your PS3, you get better at football in real life.
You can have your boards machined and sanded for you and you can glass them if you like, I’m not trying to stop you there. Just don’t call youself a shaper if you do. Unless your hands at the very LEAST sanded down the ridges after the board came back from the machine, you did not shape it.
Trust us, we’re trying to help you out here. Ditch the CNC, ask the guy if you can use his shaping room… not only is is better for your “learning curve”, it’s cheaper and you’re ACTUALLY shaping
And believe me, just because they aren’t replicas, doesn’t mean they aren’t doing volume… If they won’t let you use their shaping room (I find that makes little sense since they’ll let you sand out the ruffles there - you tried offering them money, right?) someone will… and like I said - kinda pointless to not want to shape in your carport but be fine with glassing in there… fiberglass and resin are WAY more toxic than foam
Just hang some plastic mylar sheet around your carport to seal it in… problem solved
not trying to be rude, again, just being blunt – I definitely encourage you to do whatever you want with surfcraft, just know we all follow a path of progression for a reason. When you’re learning how to fly, you’re not going to be doing yourself any favors by jumping into a commercial airliner and hitting autopilot every time you go up… regardless of whether or not you programmed in the coordinates, it still isn’t teaching you anything about flying
Lets try to get this thread back on topic. Shush, I checked out your facebook page. You have a model on there that seems similar to what I am hoping to make. DA Bay. Nice board. Just that I want to go longer than what you described. I am a 52 year old guy at 5’10 165, very fit, intermediate. This is the start of my 4th season surfing. But I go at it hard and have made pretty good progress. I surf almost every day.
Just to give you a sense for where I am at…
My small wave board is a 5’6x21 pill looking thing that I hand shaped. For my local when its on I ride a 6’3 x 21 round pin that I had cut. I purposely made the file blocky so I could hand finish the tail, rails and add bottom contours. It works well in pitchy reef breaks. The board I want to replace is a 7’6x21 fun shape. I ride this board at a place we call Wilderness. The wave is well shaped but slopey. I generally only ride there when its OH to 2x OH.
As mentioned earlier in this thread, I want to make a “speed egg” or an egg shape but a bit more pulled in than say a classic Tony Staples. I have a USBlanks 610a and had decided to go with a 6’8x20.5 with rails fairly parallel due to wave size and the nose pulled in a bit more than the tail for later drops. No more than 15 in the nose. The wave for me can be hard to catch early so often I have to push my nose over the edge to get in. I have the outline templated on AKU.
I was hoping to get some advice on rocker given the above relative to the rocker on the 610a.
Is the rocker as built in the blank satisfactory for the stringer rocker for my purposes? What changes would you recommend?
Hi - Labat! I don’t know much about rail rocker? I just freestyle it…whatever happens - is happening as I shaped. If say I cut vee in - that’s adding a progressive drop of rail rocker… concaves is a non-issue… it won’t affect my rail line at all… I don’t think I’ve heard of anyone plotting out rail rocker? I think it happens according to certain bottom contours… a displacement hull, or convex bottom would essentially drop from wherever you start an your rail rocker drops out nose side…I don’t really use all the terms.
I’d say build w planer if your just shaping your own boards. It’s really accurate if ur not a clutz w planer. There’s real art and cool/fun techniques you can and should consider to learn completely on your own…of course whatever you absorbed w concepts learned helps. But I just saw a good shaping vid where a top pro says he completely learned on his own.
Think of it this way: do you want to learn x shapers way or your own way? Another shaper -Stretch alludes to following your own path. What you can do is learn about curves, surf it, and figure out what foam stays or goes wherever your touch/feel or intuition leads you…
I vote hand shaping w Art that has no end… if we learn x Masters way - it’s ltd to whatever he knows.
There’s a saying, " Necessity is the mother of invention." I say create your own designs and Shapes and rise above the norm. Good luck.