Strong boards in Oz?

General Discussion
1

After snapping another stick at my local reef, I have started looking into alternative construction methods/materials. I am in Australia, I think the USA has more options in this area. I believe we really are in the stone age in this regard. I keep getting told;

“Any board will snap, just stay with the traditionally constructed board.”

“New technologies will never take off, they are too expensive.”

“Anything not made in the time honored way surfs like a piece of rubbish”.

Sounds like a the white flag has gone up on this issue. $500-$700 a pop for a board that can last one wave remains the bad joke of the surfing world.

There also seems to be an attitude of “If you don’t buy a locally made traditionally constructed board you are a traitor”. The same people don’t seem to have a problem filling their houses and covering their bodies with gear not made around the corner. Anyway, I would like to support local industry, but they generally can’t provide what I want. Problem is, I don’t think anyone can.

If they can make the wing of a fighter jet out of pressure baked carbon fibre composite that is dimensionally accurate, flexes and could withstand being run over by a truck, surely the big boys in the surf industry could come up with something if they put their minds to it. F1 cars, Indy cars and yachts are loaded with such technology, its old hat. Why are we lagging so far behind? If someone offered a high performance board with a 5 year snap warranty for say $1500, I would buy one and I reckon others would as well. Many tell me Tuflites are sub standard as far as performance goes and they snap. Salomon had the right idea but the S-Cores snap even easier (the first person I saw with an S-Core flipped it over to show me where he had snapped it in 3ft surf). The first Rusty Flexlite I saw was in the 2nd hand rack at a local surf shop, it had been snapped. So what is the point in paying extra?

In closing, does anyone know of a board (high performance shortboard) that I can get in Oz (preferably made here) that is significantly more “snap resistant” than a traditional board and that also performs to the same level or better on a wave? To those with the money and time, get cracking on the virtually unbreakable high performance board. Development of such a beast is inevitable, so it may as well be you that makes the first one!

2

If you search through the 2+ years of history of this forum, you’ll realise that you’ve been in the dark ages a fair while now.

Of those quotes you keep getting told, that just spells narrow minded individuals that really dont know what they are talking about. As for Australia being behind in the composites, its not true. One of the industry leaders used to post here, and now lives and works in the Goldy. Bert Burger was making composite balsa boards here in West Oz for a long time. Bert’s boards are lighter and stronger than most boards I know. Asides from Bert there are quite a few people in the composite boards for a while now, and I’m sure America has their share too.

Search through the forum, you’ll find all the answers you’re looking for… maybe it will lead you to the board of your dreams.

L

3

i can build an under six pound thruster in my spare bedroom (in NZ)

that is almost immpossible to snap i think

and very difficult to dent or ding

only problem is you have to look after them wrt holes and water intrusion

(take them out of the water immediatley and fix the ding properly)

so theres always a trade off

if you are prepared to look after it and not leave it in a hot car all day(or installl a vent)

id be tripping if you were able to snap it

and even in the unlikely event of a crease i can repair them without adding much weight

they are eps core with skins in balsa ,paulownia ,pvcfoams, bamboo etc

just the other day i went for a reo in a shore break

bailed out and a three foot wave drove the board(and me) nose first into the bank

only damage was a wee chip off the tip of the nose and some light bruising

im pretty sure it would have snapped the nose of a poly board

I think these board would be difficult to sell if i made the effort!

cuz most surfers are image concious and only interested in labels etc etc

the wood guys want gloss coats and pretty pretty wall hangers

(cant be bothered with that stuff cuz it doesnt interst me much and i wouldnt get the money for the labour in NZ)

and the hot rats want white boards with black labels and punk graphics

1500$?

my boards dont really look that pretty but they work well( and im an amatuer shaper)

how about 850$ nz plus postage including some nice decent fcs fins

if your prepared to adjust your dimensions to allow for the materials then

i know a few builders on this site who could create what your looking for

still

i would encourage you to build one for yourself

by searching the archives

do a search for berts burgers"vacuum bagging and sandwhich construction" thread

(our composite surfboard bible)

and you wont believe you eyes!

4

Hey Paul,

Speaking of strong , light ( so so light), performance shortboards… I JUST GOT MINE TODAY!!! YEEOOOWWWWWW

Totally stoked!! 5’11 x 18 x 2 1/8

Here are some pics:

Christening surf tomorrow! Only other compsand I had a quick go on was Sabs’ boards ,and they are brilliant!

Ant

5

nice one mate

new or second hand?

look after it!

thats a groms board

are you shure its gunna float ya

6

and I want to photograph it soon …

if not tomorrow …then , once the wind swings offshore again …

I think lavz is so stoked , he will "make " it float him , Paul !

my first thought , when I saw the board in the shop was “if only I was 20 years younger” [paddling power] , so there ya go …enter 20 years younger lavz , who is a good paddler [surf club training] !

I’m stoked for ya , mate !

[that board was sitting at Ross’s shop for SOOO long . Hard to believe no-one bought it , really ! And Ross still has a 7’6 Sunova ‘funboard’ type shape in there now]

cheers

ben
7

Yep second hand… few small scratchy dings, but they’ll come up good.

It is super small, but I have surfed a 5’11 poopee and it went really well in these shoite perth waves…

Yeah they guy I bought it off was similar dimensions , and I know bert taylors his boards for weight, height and skill level, so hopefully it goes good.

Either way its done now so I’ll let ya know how it rides tomorrow.

Chip is on the money, i will make it float ! :slight_smile:

Ant

8

this one will be a bit rounder in the tail this is just the blank i made

62 and 19 3/4 2 1/8

sunny garcia fcs carbonlights

mvg

hopefully hit 5.5pds on this one

i know its the pixelated camera resolution makes it look uneven

but this board is clean as in the outline

just like a boort one

speaking o shoite waves

went out today without booties

it was horrible

no grip ,couldnt find any wax

the water was f ing freezing with snow runoff in the river

it was onshore

i wagged work as well!

dont know how i managed to stay positive?

oh yeah

there was no one else out!

9

In closing, does anyone know of a board (high performance shortboard) that I can get in Oz (preferably made here) that is significantly more “snap resistant” than a traditional board and that also performs to the same level or better on a wave?

www.deltadesigns.com.au

If you were to read Berts post regarding comsands you might be led to believe that he was the only person in WA or OZ for that matter, making composite surfboards. Fact is Martin Littlewood based in Margaret River “Delta Designs” has been working with composites since the dark ages.

I haven’t seen Marty for several years, however he was at the time the only surfboard manufacturer that I know of that guarantees his boards wont snap…big call especially is you have ever experienced 10’ marges on the head.

Marty’s experience comes from windsurfing, however he benefited in the area of short board design by several years of having his factory next door to both Maurice Cole and Gary Keys factorys in MR where they collaborated on compsands for Taj and many other top flight surfers designs.

Marty is understated… lets his work do the talking… a master craftsman / shaper.

10

i cant see much detail there in the websight!

also no details on construction or materials

other than saying the others use pvc and there stiff

i know how to make a composite with pvc flex

so it is a valid material

btw.

i dont see any detailed “how to” posts on building fins or composite surfboard from delta

unlike berts exceptionaly good posts on all aspects of this construction

Quote:

if you were to read Berts post regarding comsands you might be led to believe that he was the only person in WA or OZ for that matter, making composite surfboards. Fact is Martin Littlewood based in Margaret River “Delta Designs” has been working with composites since the dark ages.

actually if you were to read berts posts ,you would relize that the whole time he has encouraged and shown in detail

how other builders with a little bit of innitiative could move into this type of construction, and that it was nothing new

the trick was to to translate it efffectively to surfboard design.

ie. i didnt learn how to build compsands off marty

im not dissing him!

but berts the one who showed us

along with mr J and a few others

im tired of the marketing claims of all of them

its just the same as snowboards

you got to look at it as a joke

sorry if this post seems a little tense

its not really that way!

and i do know where your coming from

bert is a very controversial character( i still believe his prohecies willl come to pass)

but you could have promoted Delta

without the little knife for bert imo

ps its out of his hands now anyway i believe

11

Thanks all, it seems there are other options out there that I did not know about. I have done a bit of trawling on the web (I refuse to call it surfing) based on your leads and have come up with a couple of options. Thanks Silly for the offer of making me a board, maybe I should get off my backside and have a go at making one myself! I did shape a horror show 5’8" single fin when I was 14, so maybe I will have another go after doing some more research. At this stage however I think I will do some more investigating into what is available before I take the epoxy plunge.

Of the research I have done since posting here last, I have found the following interesting;

http://avisosurf.com/

This (or related) type of construction is where I reckon the future is. Not sure on the process Aviso uses, but carbon fibre composite baked under pressure creates an extremely strong material.

http://www.firewiresurfboards.com/index.php

I think Bert Berger has something to do with these babies. I phoned them and was told these boards will be released in Oz in October (you can get them in USA now). I reckon I might wait until then and give one of these a go if it feels good under my arm.

http://www.epoxysurfboards.com/

I don’t think these XTR epoxies are available outside the USA. But the claims are there.

http://www.deltadesigns.com.au/surfboards.htm

Delta Designs rang a bell with me as I now remember I had emailed Martin about a year ago regarding his boards. I recall he responded very quickly and informatively, giving me the impression that he was a professional. At that time he quoted a custom board for approx $950 (probably gone up a bit now, that quote is a year or so old). He is confident about the strength of his boards and who is going to argue with Antman?

The deeper into this I go it seems I have indeed had blinkers on. You do have to search for the information though. I can’t help but think traditional fibreglass boards will eventually die out. I spoke to a shaper the other day who admitted his team riders are breaking boards left, right and centre. I’m not sure why surfers have accepted this situation for so long. If the technology is out there, what is stopping it? Maybe fear of change has something to do with it? I wonder why Surftech has taken off in such a big way when many others are doing the same or better in alternative (stronger) materials?

I must admit I like to put a board under my arm before I buy it, particularly if I have no history with the shaper. Firewire may be my answer.

12

Iavz, that wood board looks filthy. Where did you get it and how much did it cost? How is it constructed? Looks to be very well made from the photos. Is it claimed to be more “snap resistant” than a regular board? Let us know how it surfs.

13

OK, so I’m a bit slow. The huge “Sunova” sticker would give me a clue you would think. These are Mr Burger’s boards it seems. What is his connection with the Firewire boards (if any)?

14

Hey mate.

“She goes like a zirtec” haha… surfed the board this morning, and first thing I noticed was the freedom and mobility on my backhand… never had it that loose and controlable at the same time. Great speed down the line, but unfortunately the waves were pretty average short rides at beach break, heading out to a reef soon…I’m just in for some food and drink and then im going back out there.

Yep these boards are insane - silly - paddles like normal 6’4 I had. No problem catching waves whatsoever. Maybe im a grom.

Nik- 10’ marges… pfff try 2’ (perthian not hawain) city beach… you have to contend with backwash… seaweed… seagulls… seahorses… put it thsi way… Eddie would go.

Yeah I’ve seen some people in Perth get onto the compsands track too.,… I think the boards are called Woodies or something… saw some truely beautiful beautiful mals.

Enu - yeah mate Bert ‘works’ for firewire basically, he is part of the tech team along with speedneedle (josh) and others they concentrate on making and refining the boards while other people do the business side of it, from what i understand anyway. Baically if you start looking through swaylocks, you’ll find a mountain of history and information that will overwhelm you and it will take a while to get a hold of whats going on. Some amazing people on here doing crazy things. Be careful of chipfish, i think he has rabies…

Silly gave you a link to the vac-bagging thread, thats how they are made and contructed basically, there is more tech to it that bert couldn’t really give away.

Cant think straight, gotta get back in the water. Couldn’t sleep last night, so amped, like alittle kid again. Love the stoke.

Ant

15

Firewire uses Bert’s tech, it says on their website.

From what I’ve seen, Firewire have somewhat compromised on design to make their off the shelf boards more acceptable for surfers used to standard tech.

If your criteria for selecting a board is “feels good under your arm” then you’ll be ok with one off the shelf. I prefer “feels good under my feet” as a technique for choosing a board. But apparantly Firewire have done a lot of focus group testing with guys checking how boards feel under their arms so you should be ok.

If you have an open mind and you want optimal performance, you’d be best trying to get Bert to do you a custom.

16

“Feels good under my arm” refers to the shape of the board. I feel I can make some judgement on a shape by running my eyes and hands over a board. “Feels good under the feet” is of course the real test, but I have yet to find a shop or shaper that will let you ride a new board before you buy it. “Feels good under the arm” or faith in a shaper is mostly all you have to go on before putting up the cash.

It takes a fair bit of faith to buy a board sight unseen from a shaper whose work you have neither seen, held nor surfed. But it seems Bert’s shapes have devotees and I take it you recommend him as a shaper and constructor.

The photos of the board posted in this thread were impressive. From what I could see it seems he can shape a performance shortboard. However you can’t see fine detail of shape in a photo and as you say, the proof is in the surfing. Perhaps a leap of faith is in order?

Do you have a custom from Bert?

Are you happy with it?

Are his boards lighter than traditional boards?

Are his boards stronger than traditional boards?

Do they surf better than traditional boards?

I tried to call him today but couldn’t reach him.

What compromises have the Firewires made? Do you think they are a hoax?

Is it that you think Firewire dropped the wood grain outer shell (I am guessing this is how all Bert’s boards are built) because they don’t think a board with this appearnce will sell to the masses?

17

Hey Enuenu,

You joined up yesterday and dived straight in the deep end…

Half my mind has me asking “Why the sudden interest in Firewire and Bert?”

The other half is saying “It’s either a plant or this guys been in solitary for a very long time”

Please tell me, do you have some vested interest in this topic or are just stirring…

18

I am just a punter who finally got fed up with snapped sticks and decided to start doing some research on what else was available. I have an engineering background and surfboard design and construction has always interested me. Once I get an idea in my head I tend to pursue it manically to its end. Thus my recent research has been relentless and without boundaries. I now have the “alternative surfboard construction” bit firmly between my teeth. I want to know “what is the best available” without buying 10 boards and riding them all (can’t afford it). My recent hours of investigation on the Internet have led me to Firewire as one of the only options that fulfills my criteria for a new board. This is partly due to my location (East Coast Oz). You will see from one my earlier posts in this thread that I have investigated a few other “non traditional” construction options. These were found simply by trawling the Internet, the same way I found out about Bert and Firewire.

I have no vested interest in anything other than not snapping my next board when my local boil gets the better of me. I jumped into this arena knowing nothing more than “there has to be a better way”. I started at Surftech and have since delved deeper. Too many blokes told me they think Surftechs perform significantly poorer than traditionally constructed boards. However I will be test riding one soon as a mate has one.

I am a technically minded person. All the ideology that seems to creep into discussions about new ways to build boards does not really interest me, however that does not mean I agree with 3rd world exploitation. I do have my limits. Maybe this makes me a “techno-mercenary”? Well so be it. When I first started discussing epoxies with other blokes I ran into (not literally!) I was surprised at the emotional aspect of the debate. Some blokes really fired up at the thought of a board being mass produced in a factory, regardless of how good the board is. But I have met too many psuedo-hippies in my time to be sucked in by their arguments (as he trotted off in his Nikes).

I have also ridden snowboards in Canada extensively and love the slingshot effect they provide out of turns. I have always thought surfboards could benefit from this effect. I believe however that this concept may have drawbacks when applied to surfboards. Water is softer than snow and a flexible surfboard may flex when you want it flat (ie when going straight down or across a wave). This is yet another aspect for debate and investigation. The science of flex is a complicated physics question. It could be quantified and mastered, but full on scientific research would be required. You need to combine materials scientists, mathematicians/engineers, surfers and blokes like Bert Burger to create the ultimate. I often think that if you gave NASA the task to design and build a board they would blow our minds.

I would also love to see a more scientific approach to board shapes. A board shape is a series of incredibly complex mathematical curves, the science of which has not been quantified to any great extent (to my knowledge) in terms of cause and effect. It is a bloody complicated fluid dynamics question that I don’t profess to have the ability to answer. I know blokes who shape using CNC machines can save tried and true shapes, whether any of them apply theoretical maths to altering the curves I do not know. If they don’t, maybe they should. When a board is 100% shaped by the machine (untouched by human hands), and the maths is nutted out, the ultimate in shapes can emerge. Naval architecture is the field we should look to for answers on this subject.

I won’t bore you with my other fantasies about board design. Most of them are probably rubbish anyway, but they keep me occupied when bored. I believe that pressure baked carbon fibre composites are a technology that are a good bet for the ultimate board. Imagine a board as light as you want (put weight back in where you want it if too light), with the perfect flex pattern for your weight and style, shaped by a supercomputer to provide curves of impossible perfection that wouldn’t be damaged if you threw it into a blowhole on a huge swell!

What was the question again? I do tend to get distracted.

PS - I have only been in this discussion for a day or two and now realize it has a history. I admit I am shooting from the hip. However I get a sense this Bert bloke has copped the accusation of being a “sell out” of some sort for selling his knowledge. Is this true or am I way off base?

19

Way off the mark on quite a bit you said mate , no offence im not having a dig.

Just relax, take i’d say 6 weeks of reading and being quiet and absorbing, then start from the shallow end.

This place has over 6 months of solid full day reading to get up to speed I’d say… I even find stuff I never even knew about almost daily. So much has been covered, and covered again and then brought up 2 years later as brand new and covered again… but yeah take it easy. You’re dealing with everyone from a 10 yr old grom who just likes waves to guys with over 40 years shaping and industry experience.

Viva le swaylocks!

Daklaw - if your real name is Rio, i’m still tripping about it :wink:

L

20
Quote:

Do you have a custom from Bert?

No. But search Sways and read his replies to surfboard design questions in general and you’ll see this guy really knows his shit. I have not heard or read another shaper with Bert’s depth of understanding of how shape effects performance and the ability to articulate it as well as Bert does. With any custom it’s a leap of faith - but I’d have more faith in Bert to come up with the right shape for this tech than some big name shaper who built his rep on standard boards.

Quote:

Are his boards lighter than traditional boards?

Are his boards stronger than traditional boards?

From all reports they are

Quote:

Do they surf better than traditional boards?

I have a board with similar tech - lightweight, core-cell skins, balsa rails and yes it surfs better than a traditional board. The guys here who are making balsa skinned boards with the same tech are sold on them.

Quote:

What compromises have the Firewires made? Do you think they are a hoax?

Someone sent me some measurements - the board seemed to be a bit too thick, a bit narrow, a bit too much rocker, and too thin in the nose. It seemed to be just a copy of a standard board but with thinner rails. I think they made it that way so it would look more like what people are used to. When you analyse the way these things ride, you realise you have to make a few changes to the shapes that worked with standard boards.

No Taj burrow didn’t progress to a WCT final on a hoax.

Quote:

Is it that you think Firewire dropped the wood grain outer shell (I am guessing this is how all Bert’s boards are built) because they don’t think a board with this appearnce will sell to the masses?

A friend and I made my core-cell board six months before the inception of Firewire. I didn’t use balsa cause I didn’t like the look of it - so I guess I’m part of the masses. I’ve since made a basla skinned board just to try it out- it goes great but was a bit more of a hassle to make. Appearance and hassle factor would be why they stopped doing them, I’d say. I’m happy with the performance of core-cell, I don’t think there’s too much of a performance compromise using core-cell instead of balsa.