SUP design basics

General Discussion
1

Looking to build a SUP and hoping to capture a some more SUP design basic in one central place. I know there is a lot of info spread through the archives and I’ve been sifting through it. Problem is a lot of it is OLD and I know that SUP has progressed a lot in the last year. I’m really hoping CarveNalu and others will share some of their design lessons learned.

For constancy in discussing I am interested in SUP in the “stand up” take off sense, not knee paddle take-offs.

Some things in particular I’d like to see discussed in this thread are:

  • rail shapes

  • fin setups (single vs multiple)

  • bottom contours

  • sizes

  • rockers

  • wide spot (centered?)

One newer SUP design ideas expressed on the Infinity web site is narrower thicker tails are a good thing.

“In addition, most shapers think that the tail must be really wide for stability and really thin like a regular longboard, but they’ve got it wrong. I get the stability from the width in the center and I use the curved “hips” to pull in the tail and make the board carve and turn better. … A quick turn is used when you are paddling out and you want to turn quickly to catch an on coming wave. You step to the back, sink the tail and pivot the whole board around “on a dime” This is much easier to do with a narrow, but thick tail. The thick tail prevents the board from sinking too much and helps it pop back to the surface to accelerate into the wave.”

thoughts?

size
Another thought expressed on the Infinity site and I know has been discussed here is SUPs don’t need to be as long as one thought.
“By maintaining a lot of thickness all the way into the tail, you can stand up paddle a surprisingly short board. You can carve a great bottom turn and a quick “round house” with this fast maneuvering shape.”

What is a good length for the beginner SUP?

What about for performance SUP?

For example what would you recommend for someone my size, and then some more general recommendations. I’m 6’2" 190 lbs.

My current plan is 10’6" x 23"(n) x 30" x 18"(t) x 4.25" based on a bottom rocker of the 10’5"S and the top foil modified to maintain a flat slightly thicker board in the back 3/5 of the board and then thinned in the front 2/5 of the board.

Originally I was thinking 10’6"x23x28x18x4.5 but I thought the outline needed more curve and thought wider rather than thicker might be good.

Thoughts?

Shape:
What about thoughts on nose shape: LB vs pointy? In fact more generally is a LB shape a good design for SUP?

What about rail shape? Consensus seems to be that modern LB rails are the best. What about keeping the volume out in the rail?

Flat decks seem to be the recommended consensus as they create less foot/leg fatigue.

Wide point? Are wide points generally centered?

Fins:
CarveNalu seems to be using all multi-fin setups, but is a single fin viable knee to head high faces?

Benny1 once suggested that a large surface fin like the Heritage or a D fin provide more stability.

What about fin placement on such a large board? Do the rules change? What about side bite placement?

Rocker… seems that SUP’s are moving to more traditional LB rockers (5.5") compared to large tandem style nose rockers (7.5"). Do the experts agree? Any tips/suggestions on magic rocker for SUPs?

bottom contours:
Infinity talks about V in the tail. Obviously flat is more stable though some V would help loosen up the board (along with more curve in the tail and some hip).

Thanks in advance…



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2

Everybody has a theory but you have to decide what will work for you. Have you been paddlesurfing long? What are you riding now? Consider the type of waves you’ll be surfing, and get out there and try a couple different boards. There’s plenty of Infinity’s around. I’ve got an 11’6" that Steve shaped me over a year ago (when everybody was riding 12’) and it turns great for something that size. Still, there’s alot of technique involved and the paddle is not just for getting you into the wave.

3

Hey 4est - you should contact Ken (airframe) at segway (I thinks its now american blanks). He cuts a lot of the blanks for the sups. He can definitely dial you in on the rocker etc…

4

I was looking at the segway SUP blanks, They all have alot of nose rocker, more than I would have imagined. I too would like to know what the current thinking is on rocker. From what I have gathered the design of SUP boards is developing just as fast as the sport itself. I have most of what I want to do worked out, the rocker is another story. I was thinking something in the 5" range for nose, but the segway blanks got me thinking. I could see 7" if it is just a heavy flip close to the nose, similar to a tandem board.

Josh

5

Your ideal of using the rocker of the 10’5" S is fine for a paqddle board of that size. I personally beleive your are doing your homework. Now’s the time to test out your creation and go from there and delevope your own methods.

6

4est,

Love your posts my friend. You seem to have researched this subject extremely well, and I hope that experienced SUP builders help you fill in the blanks on remaining qeustions.Im very interested in doing a poly Sup sometime this year, and hope that you take the time to show the entire process to help others here who are looking to build a SUP. Im sure that posting pictures/steps of the process will encourage everyone to give you soild productive input.

Bob

7

4est – great thread and questions; I too hope the superstars of SUP will answer them so we can have this great resource in the archives.

One thing I noticed from site was the noseriding nose vs pointy nose thing: Unless you actually want to try and noseride the thing, going for a more performance-oriented nose design seems the trend.

Look at this from the website Carve Nalu mentioned, and compare it to the blanks you’re looking at:

http://www.standuppaddles.com/boards.shtml

Also, look at the noses from (Blane’s?) website:

http://www.paddlesurfhawaii.com/

Also, I’m sure you found this thread in your search, but just in case, Carve Nalu does address some numbers for beginner boards here:

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=299171;sb

8

Hi 4est,

I think I sent you a PM with my number but anyway, I can respond now. First off, the info I write here is just my opinion. In the end just take whatever might make sense to you and flush the rest… If your mind differs with what I write go with your own judgement because this is your board! I’m just one of many, many shapers out there that feels a certain way towards things… My views are nothing special. They are only my views… Let your own creative juices flow! OK, now that I gave my disclaimer… Hee hee!

As far as dims on beginner boards. I think as a starting point ride a few boards before you shape your first one just to get an idea of what things feel like so it will create a visual for you to go off of… As soon as you find something you really like the feel of, take down some basic dims. This will get you in the ballpark of what will paddle nicely for you. The reason I say this is, everyone has a different skill level and paddle strength. The better your balance and strength the thinner, narrower board you can paddle. This way you can avoid over building a beast that you will advance out of to quickly. This is a very common thing… To big of a board that within one month your skill level has advanced out of.

TIP: If you want to ride a certain size board smaller than what you are used to, jump on an even smaller narrower board and paddle it around for 1/2 an hour even if you are struggling. When you get on the board you want, you will be amazed how easy it will become. This is something you can do no matter how good you get.

As far as design, it really depends what the board will be for. If you like to camp on the nose then make the nose full. If you want to ride hollow waves, make it more pulled in. If you do both, make it like a fun board nose which is in between the 2. If I were to make a custom beginner board for someone at 6’-2" 190 it would be something like this… 10’-6" x 29"max x 4-1/4" with full rails. A full nose would be 21" at the most and the tail would be 17-3/4" at the most. At 190 lbs this is way enough floatation. For perspective, I have plenty people riding my 9’-2" x 27 x 4-1/4" pop out that weigh a solid 200 lbs.

Note: The 10-8 blank from American Blanks (Segway Composite) I designed was meant to cover a wide variety of boards from low rockered 10 footers to 10’-7" North Shore Guns. I do 5" nose rockers in it all the time up to 10’-3" I don’t do 10-6’s with only 5" of nose/tip rocker so the blank I designed is really for me. Ken will design whatever you like.

If you want your board to be really stable make your rails more full instead of going over kill wide. At only 190 lbs, you do not need 30" wide. The only reason you need it that wide is your rails are to tapered and/or your board is to thin. Just because you thin and taper a rail doesn’t mean the board will surf well at that width. A 28" wide full railed, slightly thicker board will fit the waves way better than one of those thinner, ultra wide full nosed boards. Honestly, I really could sit here and pick apart your sample designs all day long but it would take away from the whole “I designed it” feel of your project.

If it were me… Which its not … But if if were me, I would just make it exactly like I feel and forget what anyone tells me. Truth is, no matter who the shaper is and how many boards they made, nothing will “feel” better than one you designed on your own thoughts of how it should be. Sure you will have subliminal thoughts diluted from others but striving to make it your own, what you believe in, is the way to go… If you want 30" wide screw what I said about 30" wide. Go 36" if you feel you want to… Put your heart all into it… Don’t let me or anyone else alter your own visions.

Whenever I use someones advice I feel like it takes away from the board being mine. If you go back in the archives and look at some of my first projects you will see what absolute pieces of shit they were… But they were unique pieces of shit! Haha! I did however learn way more by trial and error than any shapers design “Advice”. Its funny… When I give input to long time, good, known shapers I see them nodding uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh and picture them walking away thinking, Blanes an idiot, I’m making it different! Hahahahahaha!!! But this is why they are stand outs in the game… They do it their way…

Anyway, good luck with your project and of course… POST PICTURES!!

Aloha,

Blane

www.paddlesurfhawaii.com

9
Quote:
4est,

… hope that you take the time to show the entire process to help others here who are looking to build a SUP.

yes please.

10

hmmm other things being equal (whatever you take that to mean)

10’ should be long enough, maybe more than enough.

Wider is more stable, narrower is less stable.

Less rocker paddles faster, narrower paddles faster.

I see SUP-ers paddling about with their boards fully in the water, deck almost or just barely awash. They are using all of their volume for flotation. I think this is good - what is the purpose of extra volume? And since akushaper gives you the blank’s displacement, you can easily adjust to provide whatever you conceive to be “adequate” volume. Suggest that “adequate” will be something a fraction over (your weight plus weight of glassing plus paddle). It’s up to you to determine the fraction. Can you do the math from volume in beers to weight in pounds?

11

Blane,

Yes you did PM me your ph#. I’ve just been uncertain about when best to call with time zone, work, kids schedules… I would still like to talk in person.

Thanks for the inputs and I’m glad that others have taken interest in this thread and will benefit from your comments as well.

Of course I’ll take pictures of the whole process and post them. It is likely to be built as a HWS SUP which in part is why I would like comments on the 10’5"S rocker as I planned to use that or something similar for the HWS stringer. I plan to use the rocker numbers from the ends and make a 10’6" and just let the extra go to the middle.

As for your comments of riding a few first… well good advice in general but unfortunately I get a lot more computer time than water time. I live an hour plus from the ocean and since tearing everything in my knee back in June I have not been in the water and won’t likely make it into the water til long after I hope to have the bourd built, or at least well underway.

As for dimensions… my only thought on going to 30" was to make up for 4-4.25" thick. This is a limitaion on my wood stock I’ll be using for the HWS stringer.

Based on your inputs, I’m thinking 10’6" x 20.5" (n) x 28" (c) x 17.25" (t) x 4.25". And for your other advice of build what I feel seems right… you pegged me on that one. That is exactly what I’ll do. In the mean time I want to make sure what I feel is right is at least in the general ball park.

Here is the new design… just a ball park for ideas… I’m sure it will template out a little different. BTW is widepoint centered a good idea for SUPs?

As for the beginner generally oversizing… that is what I am hoping to avoid.

Sounds like you are suggesting a fairly full rail.

Any comments on other feathures like

  • rail shape (50/50 or more short board like 60/40 tucked…),

  • bottom contour (I’m thinking slight Vee in the back 1/3, will this make the bourd much less stable when paddeling?), and

  • fin configuration

I’m leaning towards a modern LB 50/50 in the front 1/3 going to a tucked 60/40 through the middle to a hard edge out the back, with a 2+1 fin config. Thoughts… most of the time I ride a 50/50 soft full railed single fin.

I’ve got a 10.5" Heritage fin I can put to use…

If I do sidebiters, they’ll be probox installations.

thanks

12
Quote:
I see SUP-ers paddling about with their boards fully in the water, deck almost or just barely awash. They are using all of their volume for flotation. I think this is good - what is the purpose of extra volume? And since akushaper gives you the blank's displacement, you can easily adjust to provide whatever you conceive to be "adequate" volume. Suggest that "adequate" will be something a fraction over (your weight plus weight of glassing plus paddle). It's up to you to determine the fraction. Can you do the math from volume in beers to weight in pounds?

Charlie, my new APS drawing has the board approximately 131 Liters (I say approximately because my thicknesses are approximate).

At 200lbs to account for wetsuit and paddle that would come to 90.7KG ==> which would require 90.7Liters of volume to support. Based on 90.7/131 ==> would look like the board would be approximately 69% submerged.

At nearly 100% submerged, my 10’6"x17.5"x24"x14.5"x4" LB is quite unstable. Though this board also has quite a lot of belly to it. Free standing in fresh water has the water just splashing the stringer (from memory). {now for reference I can not knee paddle this board either}

Now factoring in another 20lbs for the weight of the HWS, that would put the SUP arround 76% submerged. Guess I’ll be getting a balance workout when standing still.

Any thoughts?

How about your guys with SUPs how much of your board is submerged when just standing still holding your paddle? and what is your take on stability?

13

Take this for what it is worth…maybe not much. I’ve been wondering about SUP rails myself. I’ve been riding a board a lot lately that was my attempt at making a shorter board to knee paddle. It is 8’, 25.5" wide, 4.25" thick. I was really shooting for max buoyancy, and thus I carried most of the volume out to the rails. The rails are hugely thick, and I wasn’t sure what to do. A lot of the waves I ride are a bit slow, so I went with super thick 50/50 rails, hoping it would be a little slower. Well, it works! Putting that bad boy on rail and in trim, and it really goes a bit slow. Luckily, if I pump it, it will generate speed. I have no regrets, but sometimes on fast beachbreak I wish it was a little faster in trim.

Looking at some 5" thick SUP boards (Channel Islands), it looks like they are almost 70/30 in the middle, and I’m assuming this is to speed them up. Never had a chance to look at other ones out of the water.

HWS SUP…COOL!

Can’t wait to see the build thread.

–BCo

14

i’d love some feedback on this. it’s the first time i ever sat down and sketched out a SUP. will be a couple months before i have time to build, but she’ll be primarily used for paddling on flat days that will usually have some surface chop, and a little surfing in small chop under waist high. maybe i’ll get her out on the occasional shoulder-high clean walled up day, but that’ll be a rarity.

not sure what to do with bottom contours or rails…anyone??

15

Here’s couple sites that offer some product reviews as well as helpful info an all things SUP.

www.paddlesurf.net

www.standupzone.com

Blane’s been posting over there as well.

Tim

www.surfboardsbystamps.com

16

Well put Blane.

17

Stability is created when you lean to one side, and the displaced water increases on that side. Thus, the stability of a board that is just barely submerged at rest will not improve when you lean it over - it’s already fully submerged.

Now that assumes zero rocker. In reality, if the board has a little “banana” or rocker, there will almost always be a little more volume to submerge, usually in the nose. This is a static effect and when you start to move there will be lift forces which depend on speed and rocker. Then it’s different, and I think once you move past paddle speed, your stability problems are over. A slightly large assumption, but let’s work with the static or slow-moving (paddle speed) case.

Ergo, you want a board that has some reserve volume. The needed reserve depends on the amount of rocker. A naval architect will discuss this in terms of metacentric height, which you can calculate with the help of aps3000. Doesn’t the program give you the center of mass? Assume this is also the center of buoyancy. It will be along the stringer near the center of the board…

The thing isn’t approachable directly without experience. As an engineer that’s where I live. Stability is going to be a tradeoff between width, rail thickness, and displacement. Other things equal, thicker rails will help, since slight lean angles give relatively larger displacements, increasing buoyancy. If your 10-6 x 24 longoard is unstable, that’s a data point. Note how well it floats, that’s a related data point.

Remember also Todd Bradley’s (?) number one hint about paddling on one or another website: focus on the distance, balance is automatic. Focus on your feet or the nose of the board, and down you go.

Gotta go now, the kid (whose machine I’m on) needs to have the lights out to sleep. Good kid.