Surftech/Traditional Analogy

I’m a real pup in this shaping and glassing business, but as I was reading through several posts and debates about “new tech” (Surftech, EPS/Epoxy, etc.) vs. “old tech” (polyester, polyurethane etc.) I was struck by an analogy that I thought was worth sharing. Just substitute “surfboard” for “guitar amp” and you’ll see what I’m saying…

I’ve been a musician and guitar player for about 15 years, and the same thing happening in the surf industry today happened in the music industry in the early '70s-- new-tech, solid-state transistor-powered guitar amps began to replace the old-tech, vaccum-tube driven amps that had been in use since the '30’s. The new amps cost much less to produce, had less-expensive components, and even weighed much less. They also lent themselves to production-line techniques, versus the more traditional hand-built and soldered tube amps. Because the newer amps required less skill and knowledge to build, they were often outsourced overseas to take advantage of lower production costs.

However, many claimed that they didn’t sound as good, weren’t as adjustable, and didn’t have the same “soul” as the older tube-driven models, but fashion and economics dictated that the newer amps were economically better for the big labels to produce. In time, most of the big manufacturers, even legends such as Marshall and Fender, switched the majority of their production over to solid-state technology, but there were always those holdouts among musicians that hoarded their old amps and scoured garage sales for vaccum tubes and refused to play their music on the industry’s terms. Interest in the old amps never really fully went away, however, and a few small backyard builders began to make their own tube-driven amps for customers who were also into the old sounds. They gathered enough enthusiasts that many of the backyard builders were able to go into business, handbuilding amps the old-fashioned way for discerning customers. In time, enough of these amps were built and played and enough “noise” made that the bigger labels took notice and began to reintroduce classic models from the past-some even went as far as to dedicate large portions of their factories into custom shops that hand-built amps using the same techniques that they had largely abandoned just a few years prior. Consumer interest rebounded, and in interesting culture was formed–solid-state amps were fine for beginners and casual players, but you weren’t a serious, dedicated guitarist unless you had a tube amp or two lying around. Nowdays the market is split about 50-50 between the old and new, and most amp makers have several models powered by either technology available.

Hopefully our future will be similar-new tech usurps the old, which is shuffled off to the margins only to soon be “rediscovered” and reexamined by a newer generation, who wishes to have a more complete experience than what is offered by the industry. At the core of it all is a small minority who never changed at all, but just went along doing what felt right, regardless of economics or fashion. In time, the two technologies eventually co-exist, and maybe even share the better points of each to reach a new pinnacle of craftsmanship and function. Hopefully!

A-O-T

I’m sure you’re familiar, but

www.ax84.com/home.html

Your point came across to me loud and clear, but the one hole in your arguement is that surftech technology is not superior to a standard fiberglass board. If it was, I’d be all for surftechs. The simple fact though, is that they aren’t.

Aloha

Bryan

One could also substitute Vinyl Lp for “guitar amp” and CD for “solid state”.

Point is each will have their advocates and each will have there detractors. Regardless, in a capitalist society someone is going to find a way to manufacture the original version cheaper and make it accessible to a wider customer base. That’s how your going to make money.

Are you sure the debate is “new” vs “old” or is it “art” vs “technology?”

Guitar makers and amp makers consider that what they do is an art and helps other artists who perform make some sweet sounding music.

A box is a box, right? How can these guys string it up and sell it for such a high price?

That’s the art, baby. Those that CREATE by hand - KNOW that a machine made guitar or circuit board amp - JUST WON"T SOUND AS GOOD… But it will sound good enough in my daughters guitar lesson.

Example:

Korean import Acoustic guitar - $149.00

CRAFTSMAN/ARTISAN made acoustic guitar, EXACT same design - $3,000.00

Another difference is, besides a battle of the bands, how many of you that are interested in music, follow a pro circuit where - over in arena 2 the classical artists are competing for a trophy by playing the same song with the same moves against different instrument creators? Or a contest where all the lead guitarists are up on one stage to compete in the Hendrix Memorial Contest - two week allowed wait for optimum conditions?

I feel that when hand shapers gave up on making wall-hangers and started competing with each other and pop-outs and machine made shapes, they gave up the right to charge a “master craftsman” fee. Throw some software into the mix and equalize and “borrow” and scan and steal - whoopee. What do you think will happen when those - perfection as utilitarian object - ultimate shaping machines are copied AND improved on and sold back into the “new age” status quo. Will you be able to charge the same for a board made on a $60,000 machine as one made (better) on a $850 Korean knockoff? What happens when EVERYONE knows the bagging bit? Any difference in my backyard bag or China’s bag or Bert’s bag? All surfboards look the same when a machine makes em (perfect). Who’s to stop an employee of Miki’s from stealing the code and selling it on the black market? Or some other genius figures out that there’s only a certain amount of sweeps and lofts and beziers on a surfboard and scripts and/or automates the software?

The reason I threw down that post in the future of surfboards thread is that what you will face, is what happened in my industry. Man, I could HAND ink a line and cut and paste and design better than 99% of my career mates. I was in high demand and respect mode, but the computer came along and beginner Joe or Amy College’s ink line on the computer was exactly equal to my ink line… hmmm. Better re-learn the craft. OK, not so bad, I still got way more experience than these proto-shavers and can still design better than, what’s that? A new operating system and Photoshop 3000? Better take a seminar… What’s that? The computer that I paid $5,000 for 5 years ago is so totally obsolete it’s a paper weight, and I just got done paying for it? Any old timer hand inkers out there still inking and getting paid the “big” bucks? It’s just a different type of planned obsolesence. They used to make the products fall apart, but when consumer action groups said, “no, no, no,” the corporations figured it was easier to force early retirements and fit the planned obsolesence model to the workforce itself.

My friend, the animator, who RECENTLY bought a $30,000 SGI computer and a “seat” on the Alias software platform, is selling houses now. Principles? You just can’t compete with a newbie who has a more powerful computer ($3,000) and more powerful and cheaper software ($2,000) You do the math, I’m an artist and am not very good with numbers.

Last point; do you think the kids will choose us “old timers” to shape their boards over some sweet software? Hell no, they would choose a boob-tube, computer image, Pam Anderson reality over a genuine flesh and blood breast that maybe just takes a little more work to get your hands on. So enjoy it while you can, amigos. Brown and serve. Don’t wrap it, bag it. Epoxy is the only life for me. Buy-in-now and join the early adopters hell…

And what about the Ding Master spray coating - patent applied for? That will kill the glassers and baggers, eh? Oh, you were just kidding?

Teach your children well. I can still remember when surfing was considered an art and you can’t take that away from me, no sir…

Personally I think this analogy is all wrong. I too play guitar, for about 9 years. My first half stack was a Marshall Valvestate…an attempt to blend old with new. Nearly everybody who plays guitar will agree a tube sounds much better, its warmer( kinda like a lighter surfboard you can say) and it can get plenty loud (kinda like strength?). the solid state amps have a tendency too be less reliable, have a harsher tone, and be cheaper…A tube amp is not like a traditional surfboard…By using wood in a sandwiche construction I htink the boards are regaining some old soul from the prefiberglass balsa days. These “new” boards are lighter, stronger, and are higly customizable (introduction of variable materials…). Surftech are said to be pop outs and have no soul bc of hte way they are made, when Randy French started promoting his boards he relied heavily on wood veneer. The boards that are made now are made the cheapest easiest way, corners are cut abundantly…which, i think is a blessing for us shapers trying to sell our “better then surftech, epoxies”. He doesn’t use much veneer now and when he does its so thin its pretty much just for cosmetics. I hope Randy French keeps mass producing and cutting corners it will make ppl like Bert and the new generation of shapers seem sooo much further ahead…

One of my favorite stickers affixed to my computer monitor is a faux barcode with the words “CONFORM-OBEY-CONSUME” written on it. A large business such as Surftech is just that- a large business.They produce a product and people buy it. Those people are called consumers. Consumers follow trends, and it just so happens that because of a lot of advertising one of the trends in the surfboard industry is lightweight pop-out surfboards. Think they’ll be cool forever? Think again my friends. What happened to the neon-painted full volume shapes of the 80’s? They got left behind in favor of the hot new potato-chip slater sticks, just as the sweet single fins got left behind for the MR twins. Right now there is a “retro” movement, just as there was the “rebirth of longboarding” of the early 90’s. All the consumers follow each other around in circles, all vastly uneducated and completely clueless to what really works and what surfing is truly about. Much used labels such as “longboarder” and “shortboarder” show how pathetically ignorant most “surfers” truly are, as they stumble along a path predetermined by what their freinds are riding. To sit around debating Surftech’s variation of sandwich construction vs. “conventional” PU/poly-e boards is futile… you might as well be comparing new car models. A car is a car, just as surfboards are surfboards… what is the difference between chugging down the freeway at 55 in an old beat up chevolet pickup vs. zipping down the line in the newest volkswagon jetta? Everyone is getting from point a to point b… but some are doing is faster and flashier. Who cares? It’s all just different strokes for different folks people. Is faster and flashier better than slow and steady? That is up to you as the consumer. Have fun! -Carl

But…these go to eleven.

You can turn CUSTOM epoxy boards past eleven!

Actually a decent analogy. Maybr more appropriate to the Chinese invasion of pop-outs but it does have some relevance.

My 1962 reisuue Marshall is proof of that. I’ve owned many a crappy solid state amp…after many years I had the oppurtunity to do asome freelance work for a buddy who owned a music production business…I traded some advertising for the Marshll…SO WORTH IT.

So it’s sorta like a guy getting into surfing and purchasing the Costco board. He was never gonna drop over $400 for a new board anyhow so the entry level price is right for them. He gets decent and gets the bug, so after attaining a level of profficiency in surfing, guitar playing or any activity, it is only natural to seek better equipment. So then they go out and buy a decent off the wall shape by names that you all know. A few years go by and sure enough the guy then wants to progress to an even higher level of quality and begins to seek out a custom shaper.

So now here we have another customer that may have never wanted a a custom board, or for that matter might never have become a surfer if it were’nt for the diversity of entry level equipment.

Oh and by the way a computer is merely a tool that can create to the ability of its user. Good ideas don’t come from computers or pencils, they come from the most powerful tool ever known to man…the brain.

Drew

well said Drew.

strive to go past 11.

My friend, the animator, who RECENTLY bought a $30,000 SGI computer and a “seat” on the Alias software platform, is selling houses now. Principles? You just can’t compete with a newbie who has a more powerful computer ($3,000) and more powerful and cheaper software ($2,000) You do the math, I’m an artist and am not very good with numbers.

Wow, SGI workstations are great paper weights but why would you ever spend that much on one now. They were amazing back in the day, but they spent way too much on R&D and just gave the technology away for others to copy cheaper. Your friend made a very unwise business decision. He spent 10 times as much for a slower machine and outdated software.

Quote:
So now here we have another customer that may have never wanted a a custom board, or for that matter might never have become a surfer if it were'nt for the diversity of entry level equipment.

And the bankers applaud while the surfers curse yet another body in the already overflowing lineup…

Post like this are why I can't stand Swaylocks.  It really is the blind leading the blind.  For starters- Early Surftechs were made with wood BECAUSE it was cheaper!!!  PVC cost a fortune, but is has better working properties.  The price has spiked so high lately that tons of sandwich constructed boards are again being made especially SUP's (btw 95% 0f all SUP's are made in Asia, think about it).

You guys are debating late-90's issues as "current threats"!  I feel sorry for the hard working guys out there that have been taken in by the "anti-Asia" crowd.  It already happened a long time ago and you were all lied to by the "top shapers" and "industry moguls".  Do you think Biolas is really looking out for you with all his saber-rattling about imports and keeping it real?  He is selling clothes, that's were his money comes from.  The boards are just to maintain the image that sells the clothes to kooks.  And you guys that buy in to the "local shaper" BS are just working yourselves into the poor-house to float all the "soft goods" that pay every one's bills except yours- the board builders! 

I am typing this from a Chinese factory that is currently producing boards for 3 of the "top 5" brands.  Of course these brands lie to everyone about where the boards come from because blowhards like the Swaylocks crowd make them feel that they must.   People are buying these boards in the shops o $700 and swearing it's the best board they have ever owned!  A good board is a good board.  A crappy board is a crappy board.  Period.  Most of the back-yard hackers on Swaylocks can't make a board as nice enough to get a job in a Chinese factory.  Quit with all the racism and foreigner-bashing already.  Who who gives a fuck if these guys surf?!?  They get regular visits and training from true shaping legends- these guys drink beers after work with, and have he respect of "top shapers" most of you only dream of ever hanging out with. And forget all the lies about child labor or poor working conditions.  Chinese factories are WAY nicer, safer, cleaner than most US factories and these guys make wages hat allow them a better-than-average lifestyle where they live.  Nobody is complaining over here.  And there is surf.  About as much swell as Florida, but with reefs and points and rivermouths.  I like surfing in China.  I hope it catches on here, but for now it's nice without crowds.

The thing that no one on here ever seems to realize is hat Grubby threw the surf industry off of it's natural course when he had it out with Dave Sweet.  Before that you had big factories like Noll and Hobie that were run like real businesses with accounting ladies and everything.  Grubby broke the natural direction that surfboard production was headed in.  He sent everyone into the backyard, no money for R&D, safety, advertising, proper wages etc.  In short, he created an industry of professional losers who could hardly support their families, but were too stubborn to quit and get real jobs.  So we spent decades with no significant material/construction/design progression, making disposable, land-fill destined boards.

We've been sold such a load of crap about "soul" and "love" and being "artist" and "guru's"... do you guys really believe believe your own bullshit?  People just want a fucking surfboard that works.  They might get a kick out of visiting your shitty little fire-hazard of a shop, but surfing is about riding waves, my friends, not about kooks giving you a BJ because you suffer for your "art"- plus, that shit don't feed the wife and kids...

Do you know why everything is made in Asia?  Because hey want to make things.  They get out of school, marry their sweetheart and get real jobs and raise families.  They don't spend their 20's smoking pot, playing video games and trying to "find themselves".  Look at the America surfboard factories- there just are not too many bright, dependable, sober young people showing up to work in a dirty, itchy, smelly factory for less than they could make at Burger King.

As for what really matter: the surfboards themselves, most of you would have never touched EPS or epoxy if Surftech had not bused down that door.  Most surfers would have never given two thoughts to "flex patterns" if Tuflite had not given the world the feeling of something different than what they were used to.  I seriously doubt Bert Berger would have made any impact in design/construction if not for Surftech opening minds and retail shop doors first.  Surfers generally suck at surfing.  It is a hard sport, and very little time is spent actually standing on a wave.  Think about how good the average skateboarder is; think about the family that goes snow skiing one week out o he year; now think about the AVERAGE surfer... I personally think that any advancement made in equipment are welcome.  I want board companies to make fat profits and have big R&D departments. People would buy a board that allows them to surf like Slater... think it's a pipe dream?  Go watch an early-mid 70's surf movie of the best guys fom that era- can you do most of hat stuff on your modern board?  That is what I am talking about!  I look forward to a day when the average surfer can do the things Kelly and Andy do today.  The stupid Swaylocks-advanced, backyard model of hand made "soul" boards will never create signifacant advancement in surfboards.  I want my surfing experience to improve and it does not bother me one bit to move away from the dead horse that is modern, hand-made surfboard production.  I don't give a shit if that means some guy at the glass shop in San Diego has to finally get a real job, live healthier, make descent money for the first time in his life and take better care of his family.  Maybe now he'll have more time and money to surf.  No, that does not bother me at all. 

...now the usual suspects can write retarded replies about "soul", selling-out", being "un-American" etc. 

(they will be doing so from computers designed in America and built in Asia- computers that make the computers of five years ago look like dinosaurs.  Thank God Hewlett, Pakard, Gates and The Steve's didn't keep it real, keep it in the garage and save the "soul"...

hahaha  - you guys are too funny.

if Roy Stewart made guitars...

http://www.zacharyguitars.com/

....................zing!

chugin,

i'm sure your rant sounds pretty good to people who don't know facts. you are so full of crap! not all of it, you did make some valid points, but, lot's of it is garbage.

Any other 5 year old threads you don’t like?

Everything is outsourced to Asia because it costs way less to make things there. That in turn increases the profits of the companies outsourcing. It’s all about corporate greed. Produce a high volume of cheap products over seas, and sell them in the states at the same price it would be if it were created in the states.

The people in asia working want to work, they don’t care what it is that they do as long as they make a living. People like you take advantage of them and line your pockets with cash. If they were paid the same as the legends that taught them, you wouldn’t be making any money.

Like a lot of others here on Sways, I have a real job working for a large corporation. Surfing is my passion, and making my boards adds to my enjoyment of surfing. The fact that I can make a board for cost adds even more to that. I would never be able to do this as a living and charge what I get per hour at my day job. I give the guys doing this for a living a lot of respect. But people like you using cheap overseas labor and lower cost materials to mass produce product at a fraction of the costs we have to deal with are what’s wrong with the world.   

On any given day in this region Craigslist is awash in ads from garage-based retailers of asian import boards.  They’re compelled to sell at or near their cost because that’s what those boards are worth here.  Their competition is with the used boards from the local shapers, NOT the new boards.  

The import pipeline is full and it’s my understanding that a couple of Chugger’ biggest competitors have already been forced out of business for lack of demand.  The asian factories are carrying a huge overcapacity right now and they’ve hit the wall as far as growing market share.  

If 3 of the big 5 are concealing the true country of origin of their boards here in the U.S. the only reason they would have for doing so is the recognition that the local consumers won’t knowingly pay full retail price for an asian import, authorship of the master shape notwithstanding. 

Regardless, I don’t care what Chugger does or how many containerloads he sells.  It has no effect on me or my boards or my surfing. Chugger doesn’t make any of the shapes I would surf or make for my friends and family to surf.  Not one.    The whole reason I got into shaping in the first place was because I couldn’t get what I wanted from the retailers or the custom shapers I knew.  It definitely was never about saving money, 'cause my boards cost me lots more in time and effort than what the retailers charge.  

In short, Chugger’s operation and Chugger’s opinion is wholly irrelevant here.  What he obviously doesn’t understand about Sways is that this place is not about either product or market share - it’s about creativity and personal expression.