Swallow tail : Speed or Control?

Hello guys. 

Please, if possible, leave your thoughts on the next insights about swallow tails:

  1. Provides more hold and control because it shortens the tail’s width and let the water exit earlier troughtout the tail.

  2. Provides more speed and let the board looser because with “two pin tails” and a shorter tail area it’s much easier to turn and to sink the tail while bottom turning or drawing a cutback for example.

 

PS: Could anyone had the chance to take a closer look at the designing aspects at Mick’s last winning board at j-bay?

 

 

Hi supershape - 

I’ll go with “more hold and control” but not necessarily for the reasons stated.  In fact, I’d say the rationale used for statement #2 would apply more to statement #1… I.E. it is easier to sink the twin pin while dropping in and turning which allows the rider to maintain control.  I’d also say that the the twin pin acts kind of like a ‘claw’ and allows the rider to keep the tail engaged more easily than a full tail.  

Take a look at Resinhead’s latest post of a swallow tail gun which is currently showing up on the home page.  I’d bet my next paycheck there is a reason he chose that sort of tail for that board.

Regarding rationale stated for of your example #1… a swallow tail has nothing to do with tail width. I’ve seen swallow tails on wide and narrow tail widths.  Resinhead’s board and true ‘fish’ designs are cases in point.  I’ve also seen some modern shortboard designs where a wide curvy tail outline with widepoint aft of center can be countered by a swallow tail to keep things under control.  An Al Merrick ‘Flyer II’ might be an example of this.

If you get a chance, try riding a retro fish side by side with a mini-simmons and you will have a better idea on how the twin pin effect compares to a full tail.

In all actuality, the last couple of inches of tail design have relatively little to do with how a board rides.  Rocker, outline, volume distribution, and fin layout play larger roles.  That said, in a ‘make or break’ situation, it is possible that the claw effect of a swallow tail might save your bacon.

 

I’d say speed more than anything.  That is if on a speed shape with a narrower tail.  They were pretty popular in the 70’s on single fins.  Never saw anybody sink a turn on one. I like the opposite tail. A diamond or a rounded diamond.  No corners.

For me they always feel (on a standard shortboard) twitchy, even unpredictable. I don’t think they are faster from A to B, but that twitchy unpredictable feeling sure can give the sensation of speed.

I like them…

for me the slowest tail is a thumb tail squash. So predictable, there not slow as in bad, just easy riding.

Hi Johnmellor, 

It’s always nice to hear your thoughts.

Although I agree with you on some aspects, I have a different analisys on that…

For me, if the twin pin allows the board to sink  and to turn easier, it means that the board is looser, rather than having more control. The surfer has the capability to change direction really easily and smoothly, whitout many effort. 

In the other hand, if the board have more control , it will have more drag on it, and the surfer will have to make more effort to turn direction and it will be easier to draw a longer arch, rather than a quick turn into the pocket.

In my conception, and maybe I’m not being so clear about it, the less we have on tail area, the more control and more hold the board will have. That’s why i made this analises with the swallow tail, since you are cutting off part of your tail area.

But I understand your point… We for sure can have a swallow tail on wide or narrow tail widths. 

 

I made a mini-simmon once, and I didn’t like the board, comparing to a retro fish. The retro seems to be more alive and more likely to performe. 

The mini-simmon, in the other hand, with the wide squash tail, seems to be looser than it should be, and also so slippery that undermine your capacity to performe. It’s a fun board for very small surf, but is so hard to turn! I guess the swallow on the retro fish gives you this pivot point that makes it easier to turn, enhance board’s control, like you mentioned…

Have you tried surfing with those different models side by side?

Of course it has the fins placement difference as well, that can change a litlle bit (mini-simmons have more hold also because of the paralel fins and their placement much closer to the outline than in a retro fish)

 

And about Resinhead’s swallow tail gun, an interesting fact on that… For a gun like that, the tail can sure bring more control. It should work like a pin tail on big waves.

But I understand your point… We for sure can have a swallow tail on wide or narrow tail widths. 

 

Those swallows (ultra high performance) usually are wider at the 1 foot mark than a similar squash tail which allows for more rail line, less rail curve, thus more drive and hold.  They dont just take a regular squash tail and cut out the swallow, they usually keep the tail slightly wider. To counteract that, becuase more drive and hold and a straighter rail alone would lead to a board thats less capable of extreme maneuvers, they put in the swallow to reduce area, thus reducing the force required to turn the board from the very back.  Think of it as driving off the wider rail, and turning off the reduced area swallow.

If you took that same Swallow, but didnt cut out the actual swallow, you would need to be farther back on the tail, to the point of it being unstable, to get the same turning ability as a more typical squash tail.

 

But honestly no one really knows, they just feel different.

 

The curious thing is that most of the swallow tail boards are made for smaller waves… 

Aside from the gun mentioned earlier, it’s not that comun to find a heavy performance wave surfboard with a swallow tail on it. 

That’s why Mick’s design at J-bay really stood out from the other guys…

80 % of my customs are Swallow Tails 

For me, swallow tails has nothing to do with hold or control…

Look at MF’s surf at J-bay . The guy was flying.

I’m gonna write my theory bellow:

1. Tail width (regarding to the area, not volume) :

  • Wider tail (no matter the design) = Looser / good for releases and long drawn out turns 

2. Tail Design (regarding to the volume, not area):

  • Swallow = Less volume means it’s easier to sink, therefore it’s easier to push and turn the board (looser, faster, snappy)

  • Squash = More volume means it’s harder to sink, therefore it’s harder to turn. Better to hold your board while doing long arch moves.  (more drag, more projection and more precision)

  • Pin = Although it has less volume ( what would make the board looser), the pin tail has less area, therefore providing much more control to the board (that’s why it’s used in big surf guns)

 

Take a look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RujfievRepk

 

 

Hi Yago -

I checked that link and you’re right, MF is doing some masterful surfing.  In spite of what the announcers were saying about the equipment change though, I don’t necessarily buy in to it being the swallow tail. Without a pair of calipers and a tape measure, it’s hard to say if all the rest of the different boards is equal.  If not, it’s hard to say if it’s the weight, the tail width, the channels, etc, etc…

Check some older footage of the guy and on whatever equipment, he is one good surfer!

HERE is a link to images of some of his other boards…

With Micks speed, power, strength and,  the form of the J-Bay wave, his ‘wide’ the swallow would have to contribute a considerable amount of performance.

 

 

Some good points and some sketchy rationale going on…for the same rear end a swallow will have more width and a straighter back rail line at the end than a squash (which is more than a pin) More width equals more glide but reduced control with speed or in steep sections. Give more width a point to turn off with a cutout area to make it easier to sink and you have glide and control. That is why it works so well on little wide tailed fishy boards. Huge fan of the swallow (or bat or fang etc that use same principal). Squash is so very neutral usually feels boring to me. Pin feels so solid going fast on a steep wave but sluggish without a good push.

Nice input.

Some of the above discussion has to do with rear fin placement. 4 1/2" forward on a pin is different to the same on a swallow.

Also, no one is talking about off the top ability.

My limited knowledge says pin sticky, round tail smoothest, squash and swallow in between. Or did I get that wrong?

 

4 1/2" forward, damn… 

 

Do you think a swallow is the best for an alrounder?
I mean if you were unfortunate egnough to have a one board quiver would it be the swallow ?
Personaly i would pick the swallow.

Is this a test?.. I say BS on OP.

Who took the bait.