Here in Blighty its pretty easy to get hold of 1.37# (22kg/m^3) or 1.7# (28kg/m^3) EPS from several of the main blowers, BUT 1.37# is the easiest to get hold of, and I was wondering if it would be okay if used in a stringerless T-Flex instead of 1.5#.
Planning on 12oz total over the rails but not planning HD / 5# PU or owt like that for rails to KISS. I’m 160lbs and far from a power surfer…more of a noncy-light-weight-mellow-carve sort of a chap and only currently up to OH.
You can always add some additional cloth under your deck to keep the veneer in one piece. The main thing I worry about with the lighter density cores is keeping the fin boxes or plugs in place. All it takes is a little leaking around the edges and the foam becomes a sponge and wets out your veneer from the inside. When that happens it’s not pretty. Been there, done that and I don’t wanna do it again. .
I have tried a few times to get to the timber flex thread, but the search function does not like me. Does anyone know the title of the thread which has the t flex method in it ??. Keen to read up on it, sorr for the hijack
If you aren’t a powerfull surfer, really needing the super light weight, and want to cruise, why are you building a “One Ding and Done” 1.37 Lb EPS board. One crack on the rail (Area not protected by wood), and you get to either immediately paddle in and end your day, or throw it away and start from scratch?
US Blanks Orange is a beauty to shape low 2 pound per cu ft. and wont suck water. Put your wood skin on that and make something that will last.
Also for mellow carve, hull to Vee is the bottom you want, but that’s a different story
I’ve made one with 1# and 4 with 1.5# and found the 1# did not hold up. With 1.5# I’ve found on deck 2oz under, 4oz over and at least 2x 2oz at +/- 45* deck patch is necessary to minimise significant back foot denting and delam. But I’m using crappy construction grade EPS which is probably not as good as well fused surfboard EPS.
More recently I put the 2x 2oz deck patch under deck to improve the cosmetics, with one layer of 4 oz on deck, which is holding up ok so far.
Wow! Thanks for the responses guys! Really appreciated!
The T-Flex thread is titled “WMD Compsand” I seem to remember. I was tempted to use kevlar tape on the rails (about 5oz) and 6oz glass over that in a bid to make them more ding resistant. I hear ya though, as I would like something to last.
Its always ace to hear GL’s input. Thanks for that re: densities that are working for you! Karl, thanks for the glass schedule!
Gdaddy, yeah, good point! I was toying with PVC inserts for FCS plugs to hopefully avoid leakage issues (like JD, although I think he is using much lighter foam).
Glass-ons would be the silver bullet wouldnt they, but alas this board will be travelling out of the country and will have to withstand the rigours of underpaid baggage handlers getting kicks by jumping on board bags doing lame surfing impressions to their mates (with very poor stances), as I look on from the terminal in horror, my protests rendered impotent by the sound deadening triple glazing.
For a local board I’d so go that route! Thanks for the “additional glass” steer!
With my little experience, boards i make those last 5 years and boards i repair (all kind of “exotic” tech), for “real” durability only use good quality denser EPS (2# is good) and never let wood against foam. Be sure to glue wood on perfectly seal foam.
All boards i work on (about maybe 150 from garage to industrialy build) with eps core have water in ! All board with wood+EPS (stringer, rails or skin) have water in wood.
So now when i make wood skin i first lam+seal, sand then glue and infuse wood with fluid epoxy then lam over.
What Lemat says is good advice: seal the wood like there is no tomorrow. I make a buck repairing all kinds of boards and every board with wood and a repair in it, has water in it: Firewire, F-one, Starboard Sup, All Kite-surf boards… They all suck water and look horrible and will rot and decay. Make sure to seal all wood properly and you can resell the board later for good value, instead of wasting all your hard earned cash. Durability is worth money. Performance is not. Apart from the 1% that gets sponsored to surf, but are still looking for a job at 40+.
Lemat! Thanks. I was going to try a subtle tweek in the process where I would too essentially treat the wood as a pre-fab, so hopefully I’ll get the same result.
Its great to hear a real spectrum of views, thanks! Your Frenglish is much better than my Anglofro, so no apology needed!
I’m gonna go 1.37# and PVC plug inserts as a durability experiment to see where it degrades and where it needs pimping in future. Will spackle and go with kevlar rail caps and saran wrap + sqeeze out excess resin with firm roller to avoid too much resin uptake. If you think that is a poor idea, please shoot me down with both barrels!
Much of the EPS today is so far ahead of the past. I use White Hot here in AZ, it’s made right up the road from here. The stuff is pretty much water tight, never any issues with dings at all. There are some tricks to making good foam which only a handful of manufacturers know. The equipment today makes all EPS pretty good. But beyond that there are bead types, pentane levels, and processing tricks. White Hot on the west coast and Hard Shot in FL are both very good.
I don’t cap the rails anymore because that’s where you lock up the flex. The deck and bottom move independently no problem but if you reinforce the rail it ties the two together. A stringer does as well. But capping does make a very strong board.
The lighter the interior foam the more flex the board has as well. This is what I meant above about over building. I also only put fabric, usually 2 oz., under just 2/3rds of the deck and none under the bottom. The wood I use does have a very light scrim backing.
I haven’t had fin box problems with anything but 1#. Like Lemat said, 1# doesn’t hold up. Just too many issues with the stuff. Even the 1.25 SUP’s are fine with a single box so I think I’ll go that way with the next surfboard.
A lot depends on what your goals are though. If you want to build a bullet proof board at a very good weight you can with a simple process. If youwant a very high performance board the T-Flex process allows you to build something very special. Wood is still the superior material when it comes to strength to weight, durability and flex return.
I’m never doing bare wood over foam again. Never, never, never. I’m wondering if a lightweight nonwoven nylon would make a better bonding surface and moisture barrier than fiberglass? Perhaps not as stiff? Then you could add a partial football-style deckpatch under the high traffic area of the deck veneer and call it a day.
I’d love to get more insight on what it takes to really infuse a veneer.
Greg it’s right eps is became better either in bloc and molded blank, but still “suck” water when board have an open ding and if there is “free” wood water goes in. I see many Tflex style board with wood “phantom”, in fact near all…
Plug under lam are fine, PVC insert for plug after lam is a good waste of time for me.
I try many material for rails: wood, kevlar, carbon, vectran, High Tenacity glass: waste of time and money for near nothing. Traditional lapping is just the good way. If you want to prevent buckling, reinforced where is needed: where constraints are the higher (thefurther away fromthe neutral axis).
Are you all still using high density foam on the rails? Or perimeter stringers? Is that what you mean Greg by “capping” the rails? Is it now stringerless with just the skins for strength?
Also, what is the difference between sealing the wood as a separate step and sealing the wood (rolling epoxy over it) when you bag it on the foam?
BTW here’s a photo of a T-flex. Notice the discoloration in the tail area. That was prior to the snappage. Water leaked in throught a lown fin plug. I replaced the fin plug (notice the larger size of the right, outside fin’s forward plug). The board was riding so well. It snapped duck diving a head high drainer. If only I’d abandoned ship!
Are you all still using high density foam on the rails? Or perimeter stringers? Is that what you mean Greg by “capping” the rails? Is it now stringerless with just the skins for strength?
Also, what is the difference between sealing the wood as a separate step and sealing the wood (rolling epoxy over it) when you bag it on the foam?
BTW here’s a photo of a T-flex. Notice the discoloration in the tail area. That was prior to the snappage. Water leaked in through a blown fin plug. I replaced the fin plug (notice the larger size of the right, outside fin’s forward plug). The board was riding so well. It snapped duck diving a head high drainer. If only I’d abandoned ship!
“I’m wondering if a lightweight nonwoven nylon would make a better bonding surface.”, you ask? Nylon is not an easy to bond surface, unless I am missing something.
Yeah Sickdog, isnt that why peel-ply is made from it??? It was like all the hype over dyneema in composites a few years ago. As dry fibre its bloody amazing, but in composites its not so hot. We used it on a submarine periscope housing and on fast jet helmets, but it aint all that great cause when stressed the bond between the matrix and the fibre fails, leaving a white craze. Its not like carbon and glass that both mechanically and chemically bond. I wonder if nylon is in the dyneema group for rubbish bonding?
