what´s wrong with Pukas?
by being far down here, I´ve no idea.
All it´s production is based on Mdi?
Remember the Puka shell craze? Man, there were locals in Hawaii combing their beaches picking up those little shells that Mother Nature made just for stringing and selling to tourists.
I wish I coulda been in on that boom…the great Puka Shell Rush of '89…or whatever year it was. All the wahines looked soooo hot with their deep dark tans, hot pink string bikinis, and ultra white puka shell necklaces.Bracelets were big too!
Maybe MDI will take a hint from that and go ultra white and lite with pukas engineered throughout? They can create a new manual suggesting the first against-the-foam layer of cloth being 2 oz. so the resin won’t drain into the pukas. Then glass away with your regular choice of glass. You can go lighter yet with an amount of Q cell to create a slurry…
…wow, think of the possiblities…I’m getting excited now! Those holes are starting to open up new possibilities!
I, for one, being a near extinct hand shaper and all, NEVER REALLY CARED for the claims that the foam cell density was consistent throughout the entire blank. I actually DON’T WANT THAT. Well, unless you can give me an ultra lightweight density that doesn’t crush like an elephant sitting on eggs.
I guess the problem is how to engineer all those holes consistently throughout the foam so the shape can stay balanced. Oh wait, I’ve got it…it’s called EPS. Oh geez, there I go again, I’m REALLY going to get myself in a pickle, not only with the MDI “addicts”, but those big bad TDI “addicts”.
Man, I better just watch my mouth, people might start taking me seriously, or even worse, I might start taking myself seriously.
Rule #1: Never believe your own press.
I make one or two posts and the whole world is up in arms. . .
So please let me try and clear this up a bit. . .
First of all - I am not Ned McMahon. Nor do my opinions reflect those of his. If you would like to ask Ned a question or express your concerns to him personally his email is ned@malamacomposites.com he would be happy to respond.
As Austin powers once said . . . "Allow myself to introduce ... myself." I am Ryan Siegel (formerly Howell), production manager at Malama Composites. I am a shaper of 12 years. While I have never production shaped, I have studied many shapers you all know from John Holley to Dev Gregory, Kasen, Biolis, Ned, Accardi, etc.. I have worked in the industry as a laminator/glasser and blank manufacturer for several years. I have personally shaped over 100 boards with MDI and SOY/MDI blanks made in my shop. . . . all but two had no problems. Shaping, shapers, and surf are among my top priorities in life and I deeply respect anyone who has been building boards and making a living at it for years.
Let me start by clearing up the Ice 9 comments. . . I get my boards glassed at basham's in San Clemente where I partially grew up. A man named Chuck used to work the counter and run the shop there, but recently he left. Jeff (don't know his last name) took his place. Super awesome guy, very nice and very helpful. Him and i talk shop from time to time when I make my weekly drops. He told me he was a partner in ICE 9. Over a month ago we had spoken about restructuring and going into some diferent markets . . . which is exactly what Malama is doing. So I was happy to hear that was the case as we have dealt with ICE 9 on a number of occasions and had a decent relationship with those guys. i personally delivered molds purchased by them from us to their factory one day. Anyhow - just last week when i was up there I was told they were shutting down. That is what I heard. . . maybe I heard him wrong. If so I deeply apologize and i realize it wasn't my place at all to be saying anything like that on here anyways. I should have just kept my big mouth shut. Now for some of you on here that quickly jump to conclusions and decide that i am a horrible businessman with evil marketing tactics, try again. I had no intention of slandering anyone. Like I said I have great respect for those guys at ice9 and was actually sorry "to be the bearer of BAD NEWS." So I apologize for sharing information that was obviously incorrect. That does not warrant being attacked and completely judged.
Dead - I have been reading all of your posts on here and you seem to be the godfather of Sway. I respect a lot of the things you say, your intelect and experience combined are a blessing to this industry. Thank you for taking the time out your busy life to come on here and help people through discussion.
MDI - I never claimed that MDI was GREEN and that it was going to save the earth and all the shapers in it! MDI simply is better for the people working in factories like mine - who blow foam. It has little effect on shapers as a chemical sturcture change. You still have to wear a mask! I get that. Never claimed it was going to be any diferent. I am doing my part to work with alternative materials for more than just one little GREEN card. It is the whole package I am after. Using straight MDI PU blanks was never a goal for Ned and I. We make blanks made from a Soy polyol. We hope to only make blanks from a soy polyol using MDI instead of TDI because of the CARCINOGENS present in TDI. And using a domestic/organic source of SOY is FAR better than petroleum. Anyone contest that? The only thing you might be able to say from there is yeah but not if the stuff doesn't work. Ah - but it does. And it works fabulously. Which I will address in a further section.
Green - There is no such thing as a green surfboard. I never claimed that. I won't until there is. But, there are BETTER ways (in terms of being more concious of things like environment both eco and social) of producing surfboards. There are boards being made in small shops and backyards around the world that are using MUCH cleaner more sustainable materials. Such as . . . Soy foam, sugar foam, recyclable foam, recycled woods, plant based resins, bamboo, hemp, basalt, recyclable cloths, kelp. . . etc etc etc. the list goes on. And for anyone to say all of this is nonsense and that boards should be produced using the same toxic chemistry until kingdom come is not OK with me. I have personal experience making great surfboards with alternative materials and using techniques like vacum bagging with epoxy resins to reduce VOC's. None of it is green yet. We are on that road though. Do you think Edison just wished the light bulb to appear and there it was?
Soy/MDI Blanks up to par? - Simply put - yes. I have to reiterate here that I believe although our experience levels may difer greatly in surfboard shaping as a whole, mine are greater than yours in shaping SOY/MDI made in my shop in Sorrento Valley. Unless someone here has shaped over 100 of our blanks? Anyone? Bueler? Didn't think so. Because if you had I would know about it. And if you had and you had not been satisfied I really would have known about it. Out of the 100 or so I have shaped. . . two have had major issues. One shrank completely and broke in half and the other shrank when the fin boxes were set really hot. There's honesty for you. 2% is not so bad considering some of the shit foam I have seen on the market since Clark shutting down. Speaking of Clark - back when Ned was shaping for T&C they recieved a container from the almighty CLark Foam and every blank in it colapsed after glass. T&C switched providers and never consistently used CLark Foam again when grubby said "deal with it". At least I am willing to replace your blank if you have major issues with it.
I will try and get a picture up here of my go to SOY board for the past two years. . . I ride boards as hard as the next guy does. After a month of riding a TDI PU blank - my deck is caved and pressure dinged to all hell. Can I get an amen? My soy blank after two years has only two dings on it - one from Hawaiian Airlines and the other from Hawaiian Airlines. The deck after all this time is finally starting to de-lam, but you would be surprised to see how flat it still is. No cave, very minimal pressure dings. Aside from the yellow - it looks like the day I shaped it. Hmmmm. Weird. i must have just been lucky. . . Nope - I've seen a lot of our blanks ridden in good surf for the past three years and can vouge for their solid performance capabilities. I have made enough of these boards to know weather or not they are a joke. . . And I am here still talking about them aren't I? So for all of you who slander what you do not know. . . give me a call and i will personally deliver you a blank.
have a nice day.
So I apologize for sharing information that was obviously incorrect. That does not warrant being attacked and completely judged.
Apology accepected! (even if it's not directed towards me?)
However I'm really jaded and I can't help that. I'm so jaded that I think the best boards can be made in EPS if done corrrectly and many board builders are becoming really good at it (Stretch, Rusty, Cole, Fowler). PRO's are finally saying make me a board that works I don't care what it is made of only if it's magic. Plus so many other materials and construction methods are use these days. I hope your product is what you say it is? In the mean time I'll do what's safe until proven otherwise! If you have the dedication of a Thomas Edison then I will wait to see your acheivements in producing a somewhat green blank. What I think is not important anyway!
I wish you the best and welcome to Swaylocks.
Surfding
The first thing I did was email Ned and apologize for the misunderstanding and to wish him well on his newest endeavor.
As far as your ‘apology’, it sounds more like an apology for the sake of self justification. I’m not buying it…or maybe you just come off wrong.
I don’t think ANYONE belittled efforts toward improving our environment, myself included.
I’m not the ‘godfather’ of anything.
I maintain that MDI needs proving and I still feel that way.
By the way, I have shaped more than anyone else in my shaping room too.
That includes Cane which ironically I just took a breakfrom shaping a Feather Ice Nine to reply to your ‘clarification’ about how WE all got it wrong.
For the record, I still have some Cane that I will use but with certain glassing restrictions for public use. This includes spraying the board white if it is going to be a clear, glassing with epoxy to keep lighter and stronger, and low temp fin and leashcup installations. Duh.
I’d put my glassing up against anyone, for longevity of glassing mine is documented. Just go to the 8 ft. Owl Fowler thread and check the board out from 1973 in Ireland.
Have a nice day too. Of course, you might ask any New Yorker what that actually means when they say it to you.
I have a mdi board from homeblown. Its ok after 2 years. Leave it my car, treat it like a regular board. Its regular white not soy. Seen ploblems with the soy, and have one that went bad before I shaped it. Also have seen alot of problems with other mdi foams, I think pacifica was one them. Always willing to try something new. Not going to switch my whole production, but I’ll try one at a time and see how it goes.
I was apologizing for the fact that I had offended some of you. When someone tells you something and you believe them to be a credible source does that give you the confidence to then pass along the information? Someone asked a question and I responded the best I could. And if you recall my initial statement included a disclaimer. . .
now where is my apology? for all the things said about me? for all the misconceptions and conclusions made about this person who made one comment . . . And are my initial words justifiable? Read the first paragraph of my last post. I was given MISINFORMATION. I guess that might not justify passing it along - and for that I also apologized. And will again. Because I am not prideful.
look - I honestly don't give a rip about anything that's beens said about me on here cuz it's all been based on misconception and ego feeding another's. There 20 plus posts written about me and my lame comments before I even had a chance to speak my piece. I've given my explination and my apologies and feel no need to keep beating this horse. Talk about something else or go surf. Something worth while and hopefully enjoyable still.
now there is the attitude i am looking for from a shaper. . . I am not asking you to switch your whole production to some new product you have never used before. . . just simply asking that you embrace the idea of it becoming integrated in over time in its correct place.
where are you located VP?
Mal…your last post was directed to me instead of VP, but I’m sure he gets the message. I’ll look back and see if I said anything derogatory toward your person, but I’m pretty sure that was from otherpeople posting. In fact I am sure I didn’t see anything as a personal attack toward you because for starters, that isn’t my style.
I think the only thing I said that could be misconstrued as such was you posted a lot of what appeared to me as self justification. I didn’t feel it was genuine, or at least didn’t come across as such from reading it and told you so. I also left it open to the possibility that maybe you just come off wrong to me.
Most people that know me would tell you I am a very diplomatic person. If someone comes to me spewing about so and so, I don’t immediately judge that person based on hearsay. I judge people based on my personal dealings with them and make my own call. This is not to say I don’t take someone else’s comment under advisement, but if the person in question has treated me fairly in the past, I am not quick to pass judgement on them.
You have to know your posts ruffled some feathers here. You came off like any of us still using TDI based foam were a bunch of idiots with no regard for ecology and th planet we live on. How ridiculous an assumption? So people let you have it, and rightfully so.
You started it.
If your dedication toward producing MDI based blanks nets a terrific blank ALL OF US WIN. If I have to buy the same blanks from an asshole it is within my right not to. My point is not that I am calling you an asshole…my point is that as a consumer, I have rights to place my purcahsing dollar wherever the hell I want, and you and everyone else can pass judgement on my decision to do so.
So let’s just cut to the chase and be big boys about this…as far as I’m concerned, 20%, 15%, 10%, 2% screwups on foam I use is more than I wish to accept.
I want the strongest lightest, easiest to shape best priced foam on the planet. Guess what? So do a lot of other people. My customers rely on me to make good choices in building them something they are paying me a living to make. I’m responsible for living up to that trust.
I do not give a rat’s ass about someone else’s idealogue that may or may not live up to some marketing claims. I look for the path of least resistance that gets the job done and doesn’t kill me or my surroundings.
You get to compete in a free society instead of a regime, and we get to decide what we want to buy, simple as that. Maybe I want an Apple computer instead of Dell, and so on…same deal with surfboard blanks.
Short of suggesting you attend a Charm school to learn proper etiquette, I suggest you treat your customers and prospects like gold…that’s how I treat mine, and at the end of the day, it works out fine.
If you want me to test one of your blanks, I am more than happy to do so. Hopefully I will be singing your praises. That would be a real win win. Otherwise I’m happy to stay on my present course and not invest the time and $ after spending the last 3 years sourcing and testing different foams.
P.S.
I looked back at my posts, I don’t owe you an apology, maybe other people do.
I’m here in sd
I wasn't suggesting that YOU (DeaD) owe me an apology, but I was raped by a few who I will leave unnamed. I guess I came off wrong from the get go. Didn't realize I was stepping into the oldest barber shop in town as a long haired hippie. It's all good though. They say there is no such thing as bad press and it seems as if I have at least turned a head or two.
as far as anyone wanting to shape our foam goes. . . I am not here to force it upon anyone to prove a point. If your curiosity is getting to you and or you might have an interest in what we do as it is very diferent from what the others do, please feel free to contact me for a blank or several. It does me no good to try and sell a new shell to a tortise. Hes comfortable in there.
My hope for the future of board building (and accesories too) is that alternative materials become the norm and industry standard. Anyone who shares this view can join in the R&D and painstaking process of achieving some portion of that goal.
One last note - dare I say ... We shapers may not be dying from shaping ol TDI, but you better believe that all the people in that factory down there are subject to heavy amounts of toxins everytime they demold. There is a social implication there that needs to be considered.
my wife thinks Im crazy for sitting here on the computer at 10pm on a sunday . . . she's probably right. So bon voyage.
pooh
Hey, you are actually getting slightly more tactful. Don’t worry I’m used to people with less skill at the art of conversation…my wife is one of the bluntest people I have ever known. Bless her soul.
As far as the old tortoise and all that, I get what you’re saying in the positive sense rather than looking for someting to take exception with, as some of the older guys might. Just stick to the roads at night if you are in their neighborhood.
You have to realize that there are some very experienced guys that have lived interesting and colorful lives that are regularly on Sways. Some of these individuals have become very successful businessmen. Some are legendary shapers that many of the best surfers in the world have sworn by and placed their feet upon their work. Quite a few are immortalized in media from a by gone era that would be easy for some surfers to dismiss because that history preceded the cell phone and internet.
I think it is important for all of us to give credit where credit is due, and I’m not talking about only looking back in your track from where we’ve been. Kahanamoku, Freeth, Carlos Dogny, and Simmons offered up a venerable slice of history that evolved from the ancient waveriders of Hawaii and Peruvian ancestory. The Gidget era and boom of surfing spawned the Beachboys, Frankie Avalon faking conquering Waimea, Dick Dale’s surf guitar, and many memorable moments spanning from classic labeled longboards to the shortboard revolution to the current day glass slippers.
It’s all good. The only thing for certain is change, and genuine new technology in surfboards and material construction began in the 1980’s with the inception and growth of windsurfing. The younger surfers think many of those approaches are brand new, but it’s the guys wearing their “tortoise shells” that are the ones who created the modern day move to material use and construction. You would just blow your mind at the median age of the ‘leading edge’ guys.
From that foundation new approaches will certainly emerge, albeit slow to devlop since the end of the 80’s. There’s not really much to debate there. The MDI technology is fresh and promising. But for the most part the refining of old technology is still being used although it has improved over time. Vaccuum bagging isn’t new, use of divinycell, PVC and high density sheet foam skin isn’t new, hollow board cnstruction isn’t new, nor a good many other things that feel both new and exciting to younger surfers. The important part of that is that it feels new and exciting.
When Greenough searched for a way to make his camera shoot faster frames for ultra slow motion in his movies I asked him why, and he told me “I want them (the viewer) to feel it”.
I sometimes fear that the brotherhood that surfing once was is being endangered by fast corporate thinking taking us away from something so simple and intrinsically beautiful. Greenough has captured it, Mac Gillivray and Freeman eloquently communicated it. Paul Witzig andAlby Falzon shouted it, Hal Jepson, Chris Bystrom and many others along the road have done so too.
Do not ever forsake the past so you can better embrace the future.
Wisdom is earned one day at a time.
MMmmm
FISH shape with SOY foam, add some BAMBOO glass, a dash of CHILLI (logo) and some RICE paper on the side…
Sounds tasty , ,
on a serious note, MAL… are you injecting our molds with a machine ?
and whats the price difference between your new product versus the traditional TDI stuff?
Mitch, “our molds”?
Did you make their molds in China? I’m confused…thought Mal said they delivered some molds to Ice Nine…
Anyway, Mal’s response and subsequent run has threatened to hijack this thread (much like Sonic Foam succumbed to). As initially provoking and wll intentioned Mal’s posts and sentiments were, the information he imparted was minimal at best…we didn’t get any new information on MDI other than he shaped a hundred blanks. Where are the chemists, engineers, gear heads that will look at the molecular linkage MDI makes in comparison to other forms of foam production? Maybe MDI is MORE capable than TDI for all we know. Or perhaps it is in its infancy like when house painters that had historically used oil based paints were forced to change to water base. They said the “new stuff” was crap and hated it until it developed into a better product with time.
Let’s get back on point:
TDI VS MDI.
There are plenty of foamers out there professing the merits of MDI…what say you. There are blank companies that most of you have never even heard of…“I Flex”? “Warvel”? EchoTech Enterprises, how about Drilead Sports Equipment Co. Ltd. (Chinese TDI and MDI). And a host of many more!
There have been claims for and against MDI…at least one very well known shaper doing 60’s custom labels emailed me awhile back stating Cane and MDI soy based blanks use petroleum like TDI blanks. Fact or fiction? Blanks are resin, resin (most) is petroleum. How good has corn based gotten? Does a vac bagging approach even NEED resin vs.other fun (and probably deadly) adhesives. BTW, the sh-t in most processed bamboo is at least as scary as toluene…why is it there? Because bamboo is prone to pest infestation. (Bamboo is super promising due to sustainability, the problem is the crap used in protecting, and processing it. There is an existing organizational body attempting to clean this up and set restrictions that different countries in Southeast Asia belong to but the last time I read up on it only one was following the set guidelines.)
Mal mentioned toulene risk when molding their blanks, and their factory setup and protection is their challenge not the end consumer. That’s not passing the buck…it’s their call on how and the cost of protecting their employees and how much the buck gets passed on to the consumer…otherwise go to China, to which I’d hope you would tell us that you ARE protecting your employees, but then again you do not blow foam (yet)?
How many people on Sway’s grasp the term polyol? Tolulene? Inert? Polymer?..the real meaning of “plastic”?
I forgot one of the key developments post 80’s in my previous post…U.V. resin cures. Huge. You alluded to it recently in your post about the ability to produce X amount of boards per week in order to make a living…yes. As key as CNC, really. Perhaps more.
So to get back to task, can MDI ever net as rigid and light a cell structure as a TDI based foam…is the jury still out?
Do you understand why I stated I do NOT want a uniform cell structure throughout the blank unless…?
OKAY!
I did some searching…here we go!
hope this works
http://www.waveequation.com/polyurethane_foam.html
This site gives molecular weight differences, volatility, color and other specs, health comments, etc. .
here is the conclusion to what you just had me read. . .
One sees that the molar mass (or molecular mass or the molecular weight) of TDI is less than MDI. Chemical that have lower molecular weights tend to volatize (i.e. vaporize) more readily produces more vapors or fumes from the surface of an exposed liquid. So one would guess that TDI would produce more fumes than MDI at the same temperature based on a comparison of the molecular weights (molar mass).
The melting point, boiling point and flash point for TDI are all lower than for MDI. This also suggests that TDI is more likely to volatize or vaporize at lower temperatures and produce more chemical fumes than MDI.
Therefore, TDI appears to be more likely to produce chemical vapors and fumes in comparison to MDI and would likely be a more dangerous chemical to handle in regards to inhalation health hazards.
So which is better in an offgassing situation where factory workers are exposed to these chemicals?
To answer your question Mitch, yes our foam is poured from a high pressure machine, which as you may know reduces waste and inconsistencies in the foam itself. And our molds are mostly made here in our shop by us. Our catalog is online www.malamacomposites.com
I am no scientist Dead. I do not have very specific answers for all of your questions at the moment, but will do my best to adequately address them in days to come. I know that Ned is a wealth of knowledge on the subject, so I will pick his brain. Speaking of Ned, the man responsible for most of the innovation of MDI surfblanks that work, he is among your list of gentlemen that have been around in the industry through all you spoke of above. Correct? And this foam is his baby right? So, my youth (if you want to call it that =)) should have nothing to do with any of this.
You spoke of "There have been claims for and against MDI.........at least one very well known shaper doing 60's custom labels emailed me awhile back stating Cane and MDI soy based blanks use petroleum like TDI blanks. Fact or fiction? Blanks are resin, resin (most) is petroleum."
Our SOY polyol is just that. It is made from SOY. . . not petroleum. Entonces - nearly 50% of our SOY based blanks are indeed SOY. We have never made the claim that there is 0% petroleum product involved. It is our goal to obtain a plant based MDI ISO (the other half of that equation) in the future, but that bridge has not yet found our feet. Once again - we are aiming at the best possible solutions given what we have to date. THIS IS AN EVOLUTIONARY PROCESS.
While we are still gabbing about this, let's get back to the issue at hand. . .
People claim MDI blanks all shrink, yellow, and are heavy. Correct?
Shrinkage - As I posted above several times. 2% of the MDI and MDI/SOY blanks that I have personally shaped out of my shop and my foam have had issues of shrinkage. . . one just above the fin boxes where the resin was set off too hot. And the other was an obvious case of MDI gone bad. Both from the same batch of foam at a time in our production right before pump failure on our machine. Not making excuses - just stating the facts.
Yellow - Our white MDI - which we don't sell anymore - so I don't know why I even need to explain - used a UV additive which made the foam white and normal amounts of yellowing in the sun would occur. Big deal. ???
Heavy - Our foam weighs in @2.2lbs per cubic foot. I can't vouge for all TDI foams - but they claim to weigh 2lb / cu ft. Your standard shortboard has less than 1.5 cu. ft. of mass. So assuming the above statement is true. Malama Foam would weigh 3.3 lbs after shape. wheras your TDI blank would weigh 3lbs. A diference of .3 lbs. I probably have that much wax on the deck of my board. If you are worried about that much weight - wear a f*&^ing SPEEDO!!!!!
Glad to see you looked at the info. Yeah, TDI is more volatile. The molar mass and molecular stuff was interesting, it seems to denote the TDI stuff is lighter…but that may not be necessarily so in application. Too many unknown variables for each factory set up and application process.
Obviously the danger of a toxic environment that the human sense of smell can’t detect is a real can of worms. Asthma was cited as the likely outcome to over exposure, but the more serious danger was stated relative to BOTH TDI and MDI…di isocynate. You neglected to bring that up. If people go to the site and read it, it’s right there in plain english.
Thank you for answering the pertoleum question…the guy that emailed me is a highl skilled shaper but is also a strong proponent of Blair Foam. Blair received some good feedback from users of the foam but they didn’t have a deep enough caalog to attract a handshaper like me. The guys that are king of that are U.s. Blanks and Surfblanks. My consistent bitch to Ice Nine (I know they are sick of me saying this) is to get more molds done. Their MOwses is just unbelievble foam to shape and it glasses out really strong. Just Foam was on a par, but everyone thinks Scott went under…I emailed him this morning, and he returned mail stating that he couldn’t afford the expense of operating here and is in the process of going offshore…where? I do not know.
Oh! The link on MDI and TDI also stated the difference in color of MDI and TDI. You feel that isn’t a big concern, but there are a bunch of buying surfers that insist on the whitest foam they can get. I was told from a friend that it was Biolas that ‘pioneered’ the demand for whiter than white blanks. Since he is considered the ‘branding genius’, maybe this claim is so, I don’t really know. Perhaps another company could come out with “Our standard blanks are YELLOW…but a good lemon yellow”…if ya hate yellow just paint it a differentcolor?"
Ah well, at least we are getting somewhere…what do they say?
“No matter where you go, there you are”?
P.S.
Once again not spell checked, but Sways as never had a user friendly spell check, so read between the lines.
Hi Dead That was a misspelling, I didnt mean to say "OUR" molds, sure it was spelt right, thats why spellcheck didnt pick it up.
You would not believe how sopisicated the saftey measures are here in china when it comes to chemicals. I have been to MDI factories here many times, very well ventelated, all PPE is provided, and you cant smell a thing. In fact, one time they ran out of their Glue, so I gave them some resin to do a couple of glue ups, and the workers went crazy saying this shit stinks and we dont want to use it.
I will still stick to TDI, although I have shaped a few hundred MDI's (a long while ago now),
They worked fine, no major dramas even on a large scale.
Sure they soaked more resin, a little heavier end product, But you know my market isnt featherweight pro shortboards,
The decks held up great, so the end guy sold them as STRONGER boards, thus why it was a little heaver
The guys here have money to burn, they will spend a lot of time and money getting formulas right and creating at lot of waste blanks they they throw in the bin, perhpaps unlike a small factory back home (or USA) who may sell those blanks to recoupe money,
which is VERY stupid in my mind, if just ruins their long term relationships with their customers (perhaps what has happend to you)
the china guys know once they get it right, they can and will be able to sell a good 500-1000 blanks each week to the companies here.
By no means am I sticking up for MALware Foam, I dont know them, So I cant say one way or the other about their SOY sauce FOAM.
But I do now that if he gets it right and customers are happy with the formula, Due to the fact they are injection molded
(no waste what so ever)
and the materials are not Petrolium based (thus petrol/Gas prices do not affect his chemical purchase price)
The blanks should only cost 60-65% of what your paying now.
Dont let them tell you because something is "GREEN" its more expencive, thats crap
Hi Dead That was a misspelling, I didnt mean to say "OUR" molds, sure it was spelt right, thats why spellcheck didnt pick it up.
You would not believe how sopisicated the saftey measures are here in china when it comes to chemicals. I have been to MDI factories here many times, very well ventelated, all PPE is provided, and you cant smell a thing. In fact, one time they ran out of their Glue, so I gave them some resin to do a couple of glue ups, and the workers went crazy saying this shit stinks and we dont want to use it.
I will still stick to TDI, although I have shaped a few hundred MDI's (a long while ago now),
They worked fine, no major dramas even on a large scale.
Sure they soaked more resin, a little heavier end product, But you know my market isnt featherweight pro shortboards,
The decks held up great, so the end guy sold them as STRONGER boards, thus why it was a little heaver
The guys here have money to burn, they will spend a lot of time and money getting formulas right and creating at lot of waste blanks they they throw in the bin, perhpaps unlike a small factory back home (or USA) who may sell those blanks to recoupe money,
which is VERY stupid in my mind, if just ruins their long term relationships with their customers (perhaps what has happend to you)
the china guys know once they get it right, they can and will be able to sell a good 500-1000 blanks each week to the companies here.
By no means am I sticking up for MALware Foam, I dont know them, So I cant say one way or the other about their SOY sauce FOAM.
But I do now that if he gets it right and customers are happy with the formula, Due to the fact they are injection molded
(no waste what so ever)
and the materials are not Petrolium based (thus petrol/Gas prices do not affect his chemical purchase price)
The blanks should only cost 60-65% of what your paying now.
Dont let them tell you because something is "GREEN" its more expencive, thats crap
Dead mahalo for the link. Read through the info and it seemed like it was boiled down for a non-chemist to understand. Good information.
Having a limited background in hazardous materials I can say that a few critical factors that are missing in the information is the LD50 or lethal dose 50, UEL or upper exposure limit, and LEL or lower exposure limit. A given compound can potentially be more dangerous with a lower vapor pressure but it is all relative to it's toxicity. Another huge factor in chemistry is temperature. Most chemical reactivity and physical properties are based on something like 70 degrees F. If there is a 10-20 degree difference at the location that the chemicals are being used then those numbers will be wrong. Once again the MSDS should show all the information as to how toxic a given product is. If you could look at all the components that are required to make foam and isolate the more or most toxic components then you could compare apples to apple and oranges to oranges.
I suspect that the Isocyanate that is present in both foams is the real environmental deal killer. For sure I can understand the addiction to petroleum that we all need to break and how a non petro based foam is a step in that direction, but good for the environment, um that is a hard pill for me to swallow.
I would rather have everyone just agree on the fact that the industry needs a consistent quality foam, quality stringers, white foam, a variety of sizes, and availability. and leave it at that. It's ok to admit that it is made with poison and low paid workers are exposed to it. Perhaps in the not to distant future a manufacturer or manufacturers could be able to produce enough of their product to take the human factor out of production, contain all byproducts of the foams production, etc.
But to stick to the subject at hand I really want to know why most of the mdi that I've glassed is so temperature sensitive. Why is tdi less or not prone to shrinking and swelling? Have some of the new formulations of mdi addressed this problem? Also why only mdi and tdi? Why not ldi or odi?
Problem is too many question, too many problems. Being a very small fish I have 0 room for error. I made a try at the "green" foam and I'm sorry it failed miserably.
“Being a very small fish I have 0 room for error”.
(In this economy) we all have zero room for error. A lot of this comes down to molecules, I suspect.
And yes, MDI is cheaper to produce. THAT IS A FACT. Anyone that wants to charge me a premium for an MDI blank at a TDI price is going to get polite silence from me. Invest your OWN money into bringing your product line about.
I initially explored Cane for the price advantage and eco friendly potential. The stuff tears easier (I shaped 3 yesterday) but not a problem if I slow down. I don’t trust that it will stay white so the “clears” will be sprayed white, and the glassing schedule will be arranged accordng to what it is and for the target end consumer. Of course those last considerations, are appropriate when using any foam period.
I don’t think it is too unreasonable to expect consistent foam from manufacturers. If we all are to accept a 2%, 5%, 10% or 20% rejection rate for the material we use, I would say that one of two things are guaranteed: 1. The manufacturer has to calculate that into their pricing structure, or 2. The manufacturer goes out of business.
I don’t like either scenario, so I’m removing variables and practicing lean manufacturing and minimized overhead in order to not only maximize net profit, but survive this economic turndown.
To each their own…