TDI vs MDI - the shit hits the fan!

The exerpt I read didn't speak on TDI containing carcinogens, and the fact that MDI does not (or contains very little). That is a much bigger issue that athsma. Don't get me wrong - Asthma sucks. But Cancer is most likely much worse. Anyone have any literature on carcinogens in TDI vs. MDI?


No GREEN premium here. We just still make blanks in the United States. So our overhead is quite a bit more than most blank/board manufacturers these days. Our prices have always been competitive to the market. Shortboards retail at just below $50. Price and blank catalog online

there are obviously price breaks for bulk. I honestly don't know aymore what the other guys are charging as it reall hasn't mattered in the last year. . . A - because we haven't been in full production, and B - because I can't compete with 12-15$ seconds being dumped all over the local market anyways.


You can't really call charging the same price blanks always were "charging a premium." We just haven't felt the need to loose money when it is so tight by selling a product for less than we created it.




Ok everyone, you are missing the point entirely. Its not about measuring levels or seeing who is less bad. Its about taking a new step toward the future versus the status quo of doing boards like they were done since 1960. MDI isn't perfect. We at Malama don't claim to be perfect. I have personally known friends in the surfboard industry that have died as a result of exposure to the toxic chemistry of our business. They left beautiful families behind, we do a nice paddleout and they are gone! You can accept that or you can say you know many shapers that haven't gotten sick and yes that is true but many people survive gunshot wounds and I still don't want to get shot.

The point is it is time for a change. The truth is TDI is cheaper than MDI - anyone in the know will agree with this and the Toluene of TDI is a carcinogen. The MSDS sheets for MDI state the main issue is with dust inhalation during the demolding process not toxic chemistry. TDI is basically outlawed in the US and no new TDI plants are allowed without some special circumstance of grandfathering or an excessive investment in air change equipment to meet some minimum standard to get a variance. That is the truth. Any polyurethane chemist will tell you they don't want to work with TDI. MDI will be the only thing available in the future - will it be next year or the next? I don't know but it is coming so we better get ready.

Yes MDI will yellow more easily. Is that a reason to keep using TDI. We can't be more creative and find another way to finish an MDI blank? If that is the case, why do we bother. The whole process of making a surfboard is a creative process and somehow we are stumped because we can't do a clear board. I dont get it?

Further, we understand if everything stays the same and you are just changing shaping with MDI vs TDI nothing much is accomplished so we are always working with new fabrics and resins to make a better, cleaner, safer product in total. We understand that performance and consistency is paramount and that takes a lot of testing and work to go these new directions. We develop things to a performance level - sometimes go too far and then try new materials.

A surfboard is a complex composite that has many factors and many combinations to come up with what works best. Foam alone is not the issue and nothing can be singled out unless everything else stays the same. All performance characteristics are made up of many combinations - flex for example, involves shape, foil, foam, stringer, layup schedule, etc. And all this is balanced with cost because everyone wants a cheap board first. We have made beautiful boards that work well using some exotic materials but they can't be made a price that is competitive in the market.

It just blows me away that everyone shits on a new direction when it is the new direction we should all be working on collectively. If we spent as much energy trying to move things forward positively as we do bitching at each other we would be far further down the road. Times are changing, we need to do things cleaner and better and those of you stuck in the status quo are going to go by the wayside sooner or later.

Like the movie said..."you're either busy livin' or you're busy dyin', which is it going to be?" To me surfing is life!

Ok everyone, you are missing the point entirely

Careful. Don't get so defensive. Lighten up! Take a deep breath and let's get through this together.

Yes MDI will yellow more easily. Is that a reason to keep using TDI. We can't be more creative and find another way to finish an MDI blank? If that is the case, why do we bother. The whole process of making a surfboard is a creative process and somehow we are stumped because we can't do a clear board. I dont get it?

Before Miget Smith past away he made a lot of MDI Boards (CANE) and sprayed them white. His boards were really good not to mention his shapes were flawless. Well the point about clear boards is the PRO's walk down to the contest with a one week old board that is bright white and all the kids look at his equipement in awe! Every kid that orders a board from me say's he want's it white. If I use certain foams I can meet his demands. If I use a MDI it needs to be sprayed. OK you loose $25 - $30 dollars off your meager profit to begin with plus you take a week longer to finish his board. And you blame the shapers for being closed minded. Hey I'll make yellow boards all day long if the customers would buy them. So what! It's yellowed and looks like it's a year old. Big Deal! Well unfortunetly the customer called the shots. So we make him a light board that is white. Now on a longboard with volan cloth and pigment or tint no harm no foul. Some retro boards as well. It's the High Performance Shortboards that we are talking about. To be honest I would just make them out of EPS  and glass them in Epoxy. However lately a lot of TDI ultra light blanks are being glassed in Epoxy. We don't do this because we are closed minded it's because the surfers that know how to actually surf demand it. So what do we do tell them that they are closed minded and they need to ride whats good for the enviroment regardless of how it effects their surfing? The white part is all ego for sure but that is also a factor regardless if we like it or not. Surfing is a mental life style besides having a physical side to the sport of it.

A surfboard is a complex composite that has many factors and many combinations to come up with what works best. Foam alone is not the issue and nothing can be singled out unless everything else stays the same. All performance characteristics are made up of many combinations - flex for example, involves shape, foil, foam, stringer, layup schedule, etc. And all this is balanced with cost because everyone wants a cheap board first. We have made beautiful boards that work well using some exotic materials but they can't be made a price that is competitive in the market

Now your speaking my language! We can all work towards making boards that are good for the enviroment as well as perform the way the customers want them to. Considering the cost restraints.

That's were we need to put all our energy. MDI/TDI debate has been fun however I don't beleive the answer is going to be solved. I do believe the government will ban the use of TDI someday. However that will not prevent blanks made with TDI being imported. In the meantime there is so many other building methods other than the standard mowing of PU (TDI or MDI) and hand layup with Polyester resin. It's becoming like the Flintstones. I'm finding that I can produce a better product without PU and the extra cost most customers are willing to pay in some cases. If they want a cheap board then it's PU. However 5 years from now PU will be even furter diluted with Hybrd EPS, Modified XPS, Rohcell, and some other new materials to be released the begining of next year. It really is exciting times in board building. Here on sways you may be suprised on how many open minded people really are on this site.

You seem to be stuck on MDI? Why not try some other materials or methods that you can use in your molds? I know a chemical engineer from Mit that was working on some foams that would be great for building surfboards. Lighter, Stronger, Whiter than TDI or MDI PU.

So who is being closed minded?

All right, you’ve just flat out pissed me off now.

I don’t like havingto get my big scoop out to shovel the crap your peddling just to post a reply.

Seriously, WHO DO YOU THINK you are talking to you?

“It’s time for a change”

“The truth is TDI is cheaper than MDI”

“That is the truth. Any polyurethane chemist will tell you…”

You are SO NAIVE! Do you seriously think that Clark, Walker, Burford or Bennett (and others) never explored MDI?

If there was the promise of making MDI easier, safer, and with MORE PROFIT than TDI, you would see that the change was aleady in the history books. Get a GD clue. If MDI were clearly superior it would have replaced TDI years ago.

Okay let’s call up the “Polyurethane chemist” of your choice, but be prepared for him to tell you why MDI doesn’t bond as well in a molecular sense, or why the cells can’t be made as fine as TDI. Your forehead can shrink back a little as he agrees with me that MDI will inherently suck up more resin than the TDI based blank.

Oh shit…just physics. Damn!

Let’s move on…I’m supposed to bend over and pay you more to further you business aspirations for producing a product I may have less success with and have to incur additional costs out of my pocket to further your idealogue?

Gee, I thought I explained my level of being concientious with my earlier post: no commute, garden and orchard of naturally grown fruits & vegetables, and solar heating my pool…oh wait, maybe I should feel guilty about being a shaper and owning a pool.

I don’t think you must travel much. OSHA standards are being enforced and upheld south of Ensenada, and safeguards and restrictions do exist in other countries along with requirements for workers that few Americans are aware of. There are  costs being incurred by the owners in non domestic manufacturing locations that Americans no squat about.The overall cost of doing business offshore is not really the point here.

What else? Oh, I was recently reminded of something I had learned about Surfblanks sometime ago (2-3 yrs). Apparently the reactive material in the foam formulations is done under controlled conditions in Australia, before it ever gets to Mexico. But maybe everyone is lying except for you.

Ever think of running for office?

Now I’ve calmed down, so I guess I can rest easy that I won’t die from a heart attack reading your posts instead of shaping some inert TDI based blanks that the MSDS states (like Clark’s did)…“Nuisance Dust”.


Caution: Liiving, eating & breathing causes cancer.


Here ya go, knock yourself out:

(Note: I tried pulling site up using firefox and it couldn’t find it…maybe you will have better luck.)

…added www. even though it didn’t show that but still didn’t work.

Trigger Happy**     mal mate  stop talkin down to us its not a good look


I’m being fronted a yellow Surfblanks for testing, guess I’ll have to register as a commie (LOL). Can’t wait to try it! Got your PM on weigh in on yours. I will do a full weigh thru like I did on the Ice Nine Weigh In thread I did last year.

Mal…I finally have some people (chemist included) PM’ing me that do not want to post but are offering some formal (as in educated) insight. This is what I hoped would happen, versus a ‘pissing contest’. Which is really what this pretty much has been to date.

The site I put in your last post wouldn’t come up after I posted it, but it illustrates the molecular chains of MDI and TDI. I was also sent additional information regarding both MDI and TDI, and as one poster stated earlier, the suspect for carcinogens is the isocynate. Rats being force fed devloped cancer on some of the material in question although the likelihood of humans doing so would have to be limited to someone bent on suicide. I can think of more expeditious ways to achieve that, if you are so inclined. This does not mean one cannot develop cancer from exposure. The test is inconclusive to a large degree.

You previously stated that your material is 98% carcinogen free: then I am to rest easy knowing that only 2% of it will give me cancer? It’s the 2% I worry about. Let’s keep this in perspective. Don’t make me start applying logical and illogical syllogisms per your posts.

I’m not on the same side of the fence as you. You have consistently stated concerns about (your) employees being exposed to harm while demolding. I genuinely applaud your concern, but you need to keep in mind that I have no stake in your company, I’m just a shaper shaping INERT material that was reacted wherever, whenever. I have my own concerns (as others like me) to get the best quality material for the best price in order to pay my way through life. My burden is not your burden.

Yes, I can agree that we all share a humanitarian responsibility to do our part toward cleaning up our environment, but beyond that it becomes abstract as to whose share is to a greater or lesser degree. To hypothesize that we all share equal responsibility will probably be responded with “yeah sure, in a perfect world…” or “how am I as responsible as a guy that wants to pump out 1,000 blanks a day for his own personal gain”? No doubt the concept will be met with skepticism.

I want you to really do your homework before you start posting replies on this thread. In fact I require you to do so on the basis that this is the INDUSTRIAL forum of Swaylocks, and not the hobby section where someone is making a board once per year or having their ten year old help them. You, as an owner bear the responsibility (and burden) of substantiating your claims with FACTS versus hyptheses or special interest spin doctoring. Otherwise I accuse you of shirking responsibility as you have sggested of others on this thread.

I have no agenda for personal gain other than to know what to expect from the foam I choose to buy and shape.

I will restate once again: Ideology is theoretical and bears the burden of proving. You must earn our trust in order to earn our dollars. Without either, the ideology remains a dream. I’m here to keep you honest and help you realize that dream, perhaps sooner than later because I challenge you rather than acquiesce.

Deadshaper your handling of this tread has been unprecedented. I thank you for your eloquent responses.

I feel very sorry for this advocate for MDI as it seems his whole sales pitch is lacking substance. Seriously I don’t think we should be taking him too seriously. The tone of his post seem to be of a business man that has made a very poor investment in to a dark hole. When one starts to criticize his potential customer base that’s when I raise the caution flag. It sounds like a desperate last ditch effort to salvage a poorly made investment. It just sounds like a bunch of nonsensical Jumbo Jimbo or whatever it was he said?

The blank business just doesn’t make financial sense to begin with? The green card doesn’t make sense either. Do something for the environment like a beach clean up or donate to the Surf Riders Foundation. I will be the first to trade in my Mercedes for an Electric Car when they become available. There are thing we can do towards the environment that are more significant than making green surfboards.

If we can do it why not! However to pretend to be some Green Hippy and speak words of reproach to the surf community makes one suspect as to the sincerity of his platform?

Nothing is ever as simple as it first appears. I think this is more a case of ignorance rather than stupidity. Mal may have found he has bitten off more than he can initially chew. Even that statement may require some digesting before the resolve becomes apparent.

I think it is great to become nvolved in something you are passionate about, but sometimes the plot thickens (aka life happens along the way to making plans) and we have to knuckle down and go through a learning curve to step up to the next level. Such is the challenge of life.

I don’t know enough about the subject we are discussing to make the judgement whether this is a bad investment, black hole, or on  the cusp of brilliance. Being the eternal optimist, I always hope for the best. I really don’t have any enemies (at least that I am aware of) and find people with passion on a quest very attractive.

What I didn’t want from creating this thread was exactly what was starting to happen, which was basically a pissing contest of sorts. The subject matter wasn’t directed at how many who shaped of what. If we are swigging beer down at the pub and reminescencing about how good we were, then great, just piss away.

The thread was created to get at and attract people in the know that could shed light on the differences in one of the most vital materials we use: the foam core. As Stu from Ice Nine would call it, this is a “brainiac thread”. Otherwise go thump your chest in any one of some dozens of threads on Sways.

Perhaps there is a place for everyone in this scenario. It may come down to personal preference. Like shaping, there are many individual styles. Some guys like to putter around while others count bands and examine their tooling to cut time and effort. Different strokes for different folks.

It’s the differences of people that make this world more interesting, not being all the same…


I may be looking into this a bit deeper than need be.

The heading of the post: “TDI vs MDI Sh^t hits the fan”  fueled the fire!

A lot of us on the industry side no matter how big or small have suffered from foam issues. One of the biggest ones besides the shrinking imported blanks was the MDI floating a round after the big CLARK shut down as it changed board building forever. We all became guinea pigs. I for one was naive and got burned on more than one occasion. Money was burned like a bad week in Vegas. So the sensitivity of this tread brought out a lot of feelings from some others who had some bad experiences as well. There is a science called Nero Associative Conditioning. I have a nero association with MDI that translates to quality issues. To have a technical discussion we may need to re word our postings a bit softer like:

TDI vs MDI: Technical Differences - New improvements in Foam Technology Myth vs Reality!

Then get some knowledgeable people from the foam industry to chime in and make it a forum with clear instructive dialogue?

With all the arguments and mud slinging that goes on here it’s like a Town Hall meeting with Barney Frank!..

Industry Notes could be a good place to have professional discussions rather than spin doctoring.

However it’s been pretty entertaining needless to say!

I genuinely applaud your concern, but you need to keep in mind that I
have no stake in your company, I’m just a shaper shaping INERT material
that was reacted wherever, whenever.

Great - so in other words when Pontious Pilot washed his hands of Jesus’ death he was automatically givin a ticket passed the pearly gates? Or better yet, when I buy diamonds I am not funding a war in Africa and orginaized crime here in America  - just showing my lady how much I care? 


What you speak of is simply social injustice. I am glad you finally brought this up on your own. I did not say it you did. Because workers in a poorer nation than ours are exploited and have no other choice than to be lied to saying “Everything is fine - wear this mask and you won’t be subject to anything harmful” - is that a reason to fuel that fire? If you say yes - you are no better than Martha Stewart.


I am not trying to talk down to any of you - simply trying to get you to wake up a bit from the frenzy mindstate. . . The industry never worked with MDI on the regular in the past and nobody truly figured out how to make it work for the beautiful application of building surfboards. until now. 


MDI does not soak more resin. - in fact our SOY MDI has been said to take on LESS resin by the glassers who use it. What say you? the proof is in the pudding.


MDI’s cell structure is rated 1000 X finer than that of its TDI counterpart. So where are you getting that info?  Because i would like to compare it to mine.


Someone mentioned the fact that our MDI is 98% less carcinogenic. . . I confirmed that with Ned and he claims it is %100 non-carcinogenic. The T in TDI is the carninogen. The M in MDI is not. So, that denotes the 2% issue. Which shouldn’t be an issue anyhow. What you rather have one genital wart or 50? Do you want to live in air quality as good as the Ozarks, or stick your mouth to the tailpipe?


I’m sorry guys - I just don’t see the problem. I’ve been shping this stuff for years, and while - yes Im not a production shaper. . . I still shape. And Ned has shaped long enough to know good foam. And our foam is good. And so I think we have taken it about as far as it can go. . . Frankly - I don’t really care about the diferences in molecular structure between the two. Like i said up there - the proof is in the pudding. I’m sorry if you have ever recieved a bad blank. I’ve gotten em too. It sucks. What does that have to do with me and Malama Surf Blanks though? Not much. =)



Don’t flatter yourself.  I’m Judas and you’re playing the God Squad card on me eh?

I guess anyone that has bought stuff at Wal Mart is going to Hell alongside me. Man, it’s gonna be crowded!

Sounds like you’ve got it all figured out and NO ONE can tell you different.It must feel SO GOOD just knowing you are a better human than me. Thank goodness my dog still loves me, he can’t tell the difference. He’s a therapy dog for the local hospital and we also take him to old folk’s homes…at least he won’t burn in hell…just me! My son should be all right too, he went and built homes in Baja for the homeless with his youth group. The wife’s okay too, retired flight crew, but they had pretty racy lives, lotsa international partying…on second thought, she’s probably a goner too. Guess the Pope can’t even save us, he’s concerned about the recent drop out rate.


Not even confession will fix this one. Damn…er, DARN!  I’m burning bridges by the second here, but what the h-ll…I’m going there anyway. Guess I’ll pack up the car and head for Vegas. Oops, back to R-E-A-L-I-T-Y (yawn).

I guess people that went to school and formally studied chemistry,  and are employed at companies for the specific reason that they received their degrees in chemistry are entirely wrong. Mere morons compard to you and Ned. Like I said before, I’m small potatoes of absolutely no consequence to anyone, but YOU, you’re the stuff legends are made of!

There are a lot of people that have explored the path you are going down and have chosen selctive silence. I give them credit for choosing some discretion, something that you seem to have little comprehenison of.I guess greatness at that level can’t help but blind one’s vision?

I sincerely wish you good luck. May you prove all those that have walked your path completely wrong.Oh wait, sorry, NO ONE has ever explored MDI like you and Ned. Geez, I just keep getting everything so wroong. I apologize for not accepting everything you have conclusively proven in your posts. No doubt you would be a compeltely benevolent dictator if given your own country.

Going back to relevance of this thread versus your need to protect the planet from all of us evil doers that care little for people in low places, I wonder why it is we haven’t had a surge of others professing the merits of MDI technology over TDI based foam production. And we aren’t only talking about ridgid foams…both MDI and TDI is used in numerous other industries. I read a lot of ads about how green MDI is, how much better, the ads said it, IT MUST BE TRUE! I bet Grubby is gonna be in hell too. That’s cool, we’ll have time to chat…

Where’s the proof? I keep asking but don’t see any provided. Just assertions and reassertions.

Ignorance breeds fear, and misguided fear can manifest into some pretty ungainly action. I’ve given you the benefit of the doubt numerous times in this thread to actually provide some documented data to substantiate your position, but the subtext keeps coming up venomous lacking substance.I’d swear you are an angry young man? Me? I’m just a sinner.

To quote you: Have a nice day.

Hey Mal

I make and sell stuff in China, Dead gave me a hard time about it too, in fact, I wanted them too.
It keeps bumping the thread up, gives you more readers etc


at the end of it all, if you DONT provide any true information, its all worthless advertising.

As it was said to me…


Why dont you just come clean and show us the real truth here


You see, I could be very interested in buying bulk foam from you, If it works and the “green” thing becomes popular,
Plus  I know exactly how much MDI blanks can be made for.


So how about you show us some of the “PUDDINGS” you have made ???

If that is where the proof is…

Post a few pics of different brands puddings…

MAL qouted:

Great - so in other words when Pontious Pilot washed his hands of Jesus' death he was automatically givin a ticket passed the pearly gates?

Matthew 27:24

I don't get that at all? What does Pontious Pilot and Jesus have to do with MDI? You are really taking things out of context here.

If we go back a couple of chapters to:

Matthew 24:24

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Please this is a technical discussion so please don't try and use biblical stories to try and prove your point.



What board companies are using your foam?

What Pro's are on it exclusively?

How many do you produce per week?

What is your production capacity?

Do you have a rocker program?

Once an order is placed how long does it take to receive on order?

You claim to have it all worked out? That's wonderful!

I've never seen it, never shaped it, never glassed it, never surfed it or had anyone surf it!

Fair enough!

I did have a bad experience with MDI.

You may have figured it out?

Right now it's just claims with agressive sales pitches and stultifying comments!










Hey…WOW! A doornail.

Now we are getting some where. This is the first proof of a question I have posed on this thread.

But seriously, I am glad to see Mitch chime in here and maybe some actual good will come of Mal’s position.

Surfding’s assertion toward not to bring theology into it is a good one…I tried to dilute that some with pure silliness at the expense of appearing insipid (go look it up). Having a large vocabulary is a responsibility, just as producing blanks is, regardless of the choice of material. I don’t think that Midget Farrelly has operated in the surfboard blank business for over 25 years by killing off his employees that had to be trained in order to net a good product in a highly competitive industry.

I completely agree with Mal that any effort to replace dangerous and volatile materials in the production of surfboard materials (and everything else for that matter) is the way to go. I’m all for sustainability too. I love seeing some of the stuff Patagonia and other companies come up with, and Ned and Mal’s efforts SHOULD receive respect and support.

The problem, as Surfding so clearly pointed out, is that quite a few of us are jaded by being previous supporters, throwing our hard earned dollars into MDI then having some real disappointment. Mal’s attitude comes off as…well sorry or tough shit, Clark did that to T&C for even more blanks than you guys…sorry you lost one blank, big deal kind of stuff.

Man, Mal, you sure know how to alienate people that have a bitter taste in the mouth, but are trying to get at the truth. Instead we get anecdotal stories of the past that makes me want to waste time calling Craig Sugihara or whoever and ask them if Clark actually ever screwed T&C on 100 blanks. And if so, what foam did HE end up switching to (because there sure weren’t that many choices, back then. For all we know, he might say "yeah, but I have to admit now, these were rejects we tried and Clark told us that he would not bear the responsiblity for what happens…or…yeah, we had a few problems with some of them, and ended up getting Bennett or Burford from OZ.

The problem I have with the proof provided, is that it is all hearsay…not admissable in court, ya know. The judge would shut you up as soon as he realized what was coming out of your mouth. But if you had documentation, he would tell you to give it to the bailiff or approach the bench. You mentioned you’ve been shaping for 12 years or so? Well, let me share something with you from the  “Tortoise shell” dinosaur’s den…during the 80’s I was purchasing 50 to 100 Clark sailboard blanks at a pop. Some were first quality but we also started to try Grubby’s 2nds. The 2nds were classified as structurally sound but with some voids in them. Then there were rejcets with larger void or some shrinkage (I think that’s how it went), then there were rejects that were NOT structurally sound and cut up at the factory. If I had an old Clark Catalog or wherever that was printed (maybe it was small print on an invoice) I would scan and provide it here.

We used 2nds for personal boards and team boards. Ironic thing was the team boards were getting more of a pounding and work out than the first quality boards that were going out to dealers for entry level and recreational sailors. The Clark 2nds were REALLY GOOD foam withstandng 30, 40 & 50 feet of getting air launching off waves and even star team rider Brett Lickle pioneered riding Jaws off Maui (with Dave Kalama) riding some of these Clark 2nds. Yeah, Brett trusted his life exclusively on my boards during that decade on a Clark 2nd.  Sixty foot waves 2-1/2 miles out to sea. I’ve got pix, but only toward the end of the ride cuz the helicopter wasn’t running the day they were breaking barriers and making history. Now Brett and Laird are out looking for the 100 ft. wave.

So now I’m done pissing a little (couldn’t resist) but to return to case in point…it’s just to say, you got one story, I have another…and it proves what?

Toluene is horrible stuff. Birth defects, asthma and you were on the cancer thing. Well the problem with stating that is proof. So since you are so good at shooting your mouth off w/o proving anything I decided I’d go looking for proof. I found one statement based on U.S. EPA 1994 report that states “Insufficient evidence to identify toluene as a carcinogenic substance in humans”. Then I looked up the lists of "known and probable carcinogens from a site by the American Cancer Society. These ratings are grouped in classes as:

Group 1  Carcinogenic in humans

Group 2A Probably carcinogenic in humans

Group 2B Possibly carcinogenic in humans

Group 3   Unclassifiable as to carcinogenic in humans

Group 4 Probably not carcinogenic in humans

It then describes how hard it can be to test most substances to determine what is carcinogenic in humans and therefore most substances tested are listed as being probable or possible or unknown risks. They then supply information as part of what they term “NTP”, or National Toxicoloy Program. The problem I have with the ACS lists is that isocynate and toluene did not show up anywhere on their lists, along with the EPA 1994 statement that there is insufficient evidence indicating that toluene is a carcinogen in humans…however, the question I have to raise concerns “Benzene” which is included as carcinogenic. My understanding is the terms are closely related or perhaps even synonymous…this demands clarifying.

I also gleaned info from the OSHA site as well as others. It gets very complicated, but some things are pretty clear. There are plenty of risks involved with toluene and other chemicals used in manufacturing products. If you drink some dangerous chemicals it will do 10 times the damage that breathing it will.

Now we might all say “what dumb shit would knowingly drink toluene or some dangerous chemical”? well…This would suggest to me that water sources, including bottled water dispensors must be set up well away in clean air environments to avoid possible absorption of hydrophilic vapor. In my surfboard factory of the 80’s I had bottled water in an area for empoyees completely separate of glassing rooms as I couldn’t assume that all the materials we were using were hydrophobic. I didn’t need OSHA to tell me that guidelines are provided requiring responsible manufacturers to provide workers safety in such environments.

At the expense of sparking another religiious inspired analogy, I maintain my position that the consumer trusts OSHA and other regulatory entities paid for by taxpayers dollars to establish and enforce regulations for the public good, including those workers that choose to seek employment in said establishments. My patronage (nor any other consumers) does not constitute an active willingness to cause harm to employees that select those jobs for their livelihood. IOW, if they don’t want to be in that job environment, they should pursue other career objectives available to them. Same thing goes for coal miners, nurses, commercial pilots, postal workers, and many others. Life is a risk.

As Mitch from OZ has indicated, in the factories in China, protection of employees around toxic or potentially toxic materials is carefully controlled. I am somewhat skeptical, but hopeful, that his statement is true. Ironically, you may even end up getting a volume of business from him that awards you with making a good living at what you have chosen to do.

This may in turn help you advance your passion domestically and beyond. But to suggest in your previous post that my patronage of TDI based blanks, and that anyone else doing so, is guilty of sending people down to the killing floor is ludicrous at best. As I suggested, and I would expect you to be included in this scenario, that would mean anyone that has ever bought just about anything at Wal Mart is just as guilty as what you accuse me of, and I find that pretty hypocritical.



Mitch…good point. I thought about not ‘feeding’ your thread but just couldn’t bring myself to do it. Too funny. I really enjoyed oyur comments and insights of use for the MDI blanks. I’m currently shaping some MDI Cane from Ice 9 that I have had for awhile…sort of slighted it after they came out with Mowses. But I have to say, it shapes well when I slow down some. It doesn’t hold a candle to Mowses, and it will tear if it’s gonna tear, but for the most part it shapes fine.

Call me picky, and my shaping style likes to move through quickly breaking bands with the planer toe and a lot of backward clean up that others use surforms on. The stuff power sands well too, which to be fair, the old Homeblown did as well.

Your comments about the weight you found using MDI conincided with what I experienced. Now IF Ned’s original claim that the cells actually are 1000X finer than TDI based foam (which TDI based foam), and that the foam cell size is consistent throughout the entire blank…then that would seem to denote why the blanks weigh more. But then I have to consider other statements made by Mal/Ryan and weigh it against what I have experienced using fine celled Mowses and the strength to weight ratios attained from Mowses and Cane. Sure, this is a comparison of Mowses and Homeblown, but neither was your experience of using whatever TDI and MDI you used yes?

To make it more complicated comes Mal’s (RYan’s) statement that their2.2 lb. foam absorbs LESS resin while glassing. Well I sure didn’t find that to be true with the Homeblown I shaped and glassed, but he has cited differences in “the past 18 months”. So hopefully people will try it, maybe even you, and we will see what reports come back from everyone?

Finally the only other thing I wanted to add today on this thread is some communication I received from a chemist and I aked a friend who is a Haz Mat guy for confirmation. He agreed with the chemist’s statement, which was:


“Neither MDI nor TDI is conclusively proven to be carcinogenic in humans. Tey are so similar in toxicology that most regulations treat them as just isocynates as a chemical group rather than individually. The one study that showed cancer in rats from TDI used a gavage treatment (i.e. force fed pure TDI and not likely an occupational route of exposure)”.


I actually had pretty good luck with Cane. The glassers just had to slow down. The boards I made were mostly mid and longer range boards. Seemed to work pretty good on longboards. One of my friends has been riding his for quite awhile and is really happy with how it rides and held up.

Malamafoam my offer still stands to shape one of you blanks, I will take pictures and critique it as I go along. You guys are located in San Diego so am I. Unless my 30yrs of professional shaping does not make me qualified enough.


That was pretty comical Dead. i liked that one. i still feel like people are copmletely misreading everything I've said - maybe you all are feeling attacked a bit?


I must apologize for all the silliness. Like i said in my first response to this thread - i truly deeply respect shapers and board builders accross the board. I have absolutely nothing against any of you and am very glad you have taken the time to get back in my face after I've gotten in yours. Building surfboards is as honorable a profession as any and I am thankful for the bulk of you who have been innovators and hard workers in the industry all these years. Sorry to have come off the like the cocky young Bull. My goal remains and that is to spread the word on our product as I believe it is a good foam with a lot of potential, and is much cleaner and safer for the envirionment than standard TDI foams. Remember it is not the MDI that makes it GREEN. . . it is the SOY sauce. =) I keep getting that remark thrown at me. . . MDI is not green! I know silly - its not. It just won't be one more thing in your life that causes cancer (to you or anyone else).


Ding - I think you asked about our production facility and its capabillities?

We are capable of blowing roughly 50 blanks/day. unfortunately we can only stringer about 25-30/day at the moment as we had to part with some presses.

Guys like Merrick, Biolis, Holingsworth, Minard, Diereks, Linden, Super, etc etc etc. . . have all used our foam consistently (except Biolis - he only tried and said "this stuff is great!"

If you want to order blanks they will be ready for you this week. Unless you order a container, then expect it to be a few weeks.

We have about 45 diferent rockers currently and are always willing to add more to meet individual shaper's needs.

Our catalog is online - the website is still under construction, but soon the full catalog with blank dimensions will be added. If you want to see it email me and I'll get it to you.



To order some pudding please call (714)309-3129


I've really enjoyed this dialougue.


Agree with Dead, Because the foam density is the same throughout an MDI blank,
they have add more chemical to make it strong enough on the deck, thus increasing the weight on the bottom (where you DONT stand)
TDI is harder on the outside and softer in the middle,
Thus, a good shaper (or experienced machine operator) can barely skim the Deck (like 5mm)
and shave the bulk of the foam from the bottom of the board
Leaving you a tough deck and softer bottom and a much LIGHTER finished product.

Sure it can tear a little, bu so does by arse after some of the local cuisine !!

I dont know who "Biolos" is that mal speaks of, but I want 13$ blanks.
Even the MDI blanks I get here would cost around 25$USD

I wouldnt bother researching him, or more his blank supplier
BUT you should, This would help you greatly in the "are consumers getting greedy" dept

We all can agree what Mal is doing is good, Once (if possible) he gets it right
It will be good for the world.

MAL, some tips:    Car tire inner tube, cut into strips (sideways) so they look like bug rubber bands, make great ties/clamps that you can use when gluing up,
Then you can take it out of the jig earlier and leave it dry against a wall and the band will hold it togther.
I have also seen people use industrial sized "cling wrap" the clear stuff you would wrap pallets of boxes in, and it also keeps everything clean when delivering them
You could offer a "money back PLUS" scheme for first time buyers of yur foam.
Have some guarantee that for the first 50 blanks purchased, by a new customer,
if anything goes wrong, due to the blank manufactures fault, you would return their money plus 100$    (or similar)
This may halt some of the "MDI is shit, I am never trying it again"   additudes you will find


has anyone seen a " Taylor" ?........( air operated , rotary glueing machine )......easily adapted to blank glue-ups