TDI vs MDI - the shit hits the fan!

Industry Talk
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When I was glueing up blanks we used straps to tighten up the blank and released the clamps.This will free your presses I have about 1000 straps in my storage if you want to buy some. Making blanks is a hard road to climb!

Been there done that with EPS and XPS.

$13.00 Blanks floating around? Wow that would make a bit nervous. I haven't see any of those?

I have a cnc machine and some of my customers bring me all kinds of different blanks. No one has brought a $13.00 blank to me? I get Marko EPS or PU US Blanks from Pure Glass. I was ordering direct to US and they have the best service. I just don't have the storage as I did before (down sized) so I only buy a few at a time or shapers bring there own blanks. We mostly scan and make CAD models for board builders who are serious about reproducing their best models. Had some Surf Blanks America recently that were also good. A customer brought me some Blair MDI and I was suprised because they cut real nice and had no Pukas and a real creamy texture. Plus the blank mold and rocker was super friendly on the machine. I Did shape a Moses from Ice Nine that had no problems whatsoever some 9 months ago. I make alot of boards for the Green Hippy Types and they all want EPS/Epoxy. They like the lightness plus they preceive that EPS is greener for the enviroment than any type of PU. Many for the Greenies came to me with MDI and quickly switched to EPS when they had trouble marketing their product. I'm sure that MDI is better in manufacturing than TDI because you have less toxic fumes than a plant full of TDI. The shaper has even less exposure and if he wears the proper respirator is less effected. From a Marketing Perspective MDI may look like a good angle however I think that the real GREEN avocates are not buying it? I may be an old man however the ages of my friend base are broad. The 20 somethings at the Universities are all wanting EPS and I think that segment is going to actual grow further. Maybe not as fast as I had projected however it's still a directing that continues to grow.

For shortboard surfing a EPS is hard to beat on weight:

1.5# EPS with double 4 S cloth deck and single 6 bottom less than 4.5 pounds for a 6'1 and it fly's!

Take a PU regardless of MDI or TDI it will weight just over 5.0 pounds and it will fly as well just not for as long.

PU is great because they have a short shelf-life which means repeat business. EPS is not good for board builders because they ride better for a longer period of time so their is less consumption of materials in the end. This is were the green card is played well.

So we have:

PU

US Blanks

Surf Blanks America

ICE 9  

Blair

Malamafoam

EPS

Marko

Austin

White Hot

Don't get me wrong I still use a lot of PU. We need to be aware of our options. If were playing the Green Card (not saying you are!) I think EPS is a better solution than PU. For Shaping I like PU better of course. For Classic Longboards US Blanks Blue or Green formula takes tints so well and the quality is AAA.

For shortboards it's a mixed bag!

Thank you for providing a bit more information in your last post.

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I agree. A lot of the shaping and glassing aspect is respecting the material to begin with. I still have an inventory of Cane MDI and shaped a 9 ft. Spoon type step deck yesterday. Classic longboard with 60/40, 70/30 rails, combo of flats, rolled, straights and apropriate outline for the era. Neat board circa '65-'67. I really enjoy shaping those because it isn’t just a mindless turn the rails down and chip the edge type of design design. I aso did some Stoker V Machines in Cane this week…which is a set and drive type of design that the weight will enhance.

The cane shaped really nice provided that I slow down my cuts and ‘respect the foam’. Cane power sands well (as did the old Homeblown) and this does suit my particular style of shaping these, which is characterized by shaping nearly the entire board using the planer including splitting bands and blending using backward runs using the toepiece of a big Hitachi versus a bunch of surform work.

The big Hitachi works well for blocking action. Once everything is blocked and broken way down to symmetrical contours, I either use a medium to soft drywall float for hand finishing or power sand flats and contours with approriate hard to super softie pads depending on what part I’m sanding…on a variable speed grinder. The latter method reduces grunt time and turns out right on as long as you have done the job of truing the board of highs and lows. This works great on EPS as well, but unless you have some very good sanding skills, this approach can be disastrous

Like Mitch had mentioned, the MDI being used for longboards or other shapes that work well when setting more in the water (Cooperfish always come to mind for me), doesn’t present an issue for it’s use and inherent properties of added weight. I know someone might take exception to the “added weight” part of my statement, but unless you are using the really super light stuff from Ice Nine like Flyweight, and euqivalents of other MDI foams, I think the approach is pretty realistic. Of the MDI stuff that I have done (a fair amount over the last couple f years) I have not seen the boards degrading at any accelerated rate versus the TDI based foams. (Thank god!)

Then we look at the absorption comments and wonder how much of this is a factor? Ryan claims their new foam will absorb less resin than TDI based foam…but that can’t really be quantified unless densities of each foam is matched up and all other variables are eliminated. My comment about preferring a foam that is denser on the outside and softer on the inside gives ME the CONTROL to determine ultimate weight on what I’m making. I’m willing to lay money down that I could take an MDI blank and shape the exact same thing in a TDI blank, then glass them with the same glassing schedule but come out with a lighter end result using the TDI…even if both were stated as 2lb. or 2.2 lb densities. Why? Because the TDI would vary and, based on what the MDI guys claim, the MD would not.

The MDI not varying is good argument for beginning shaper to use their foam. No  matter how they butcher it, the weight of foam will be the weight, netting a predictable strength to weight ratio…whereas a skilled shaper could have control using the TDI to maximize his strength to weight ratio…same thing for a skilled cutter, as Mitch had stated.

For me, it’s a drag thinking I’m stuck with a blank with static weight possibilities; one of the primary reasons I use EPS in different densities for specific designs of mine, and vice versa. Like my statement about Cooperfish or any rounded bottom type log, I believe making them ultralite would reduce their performance. Some designs work great with weight whereas others dog out or spin out.

As far as the gluing machine you mentioned, I’ve never seen one. Can you describe it a bit or provide a link where we could view it? I’m doing glue ups on some of my blanks using straps and clamps allowing me some privacy while developing some engineered flex concepts into my stringers in new materials and some wood, but not at such a volume that I would need a special machine.

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There’s some dirt cheap stuff out there…have fun working with it… MDI? TDI? 1/16" stringer or what? Some of it you just gotta wonder who would put these in their top of the line boards and what kind of failures the blanks are prone to.

Mitch…Ryan meant Biolas…Lost aka Mayhem.

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  The  Taylor glueing machine was first made in 1940 - for glueing wooden panels...........my brother has one in his furniture joinery,  and I have used it many times for glue-ups on solid balsa boards ( with special jigs) . Would be easily adapted to a permanent surfboard glue-up machine, however , you'd need to doin big volume to warent the investment . ..................go to   jamesltaylor.com ................if you buy one ,maybe he'll pullout his giutar and sing a song for ya when you pick it up .

 

 

 

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That Taylor machine is a GOLIATH!  I'm sure it works nicely but IMO, the design that G.C. came up with for his presses was pretty brilliant.  He ran his on Hydraulics which I think is overkill but it certainally did the job.  I have seen them adapted to be run on air/pneumatic and they work just as well that way.  They are pretty big though and you need about 10'x8' of floor space for 1 unit (which will accommodate 2 blanks at a time)

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Hodaddy…right on…got it…been there, done that.

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Got it, got it and really got it…silence is golden.

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Dead...  I'll send you a P.M. if you really want to know. 

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 Let's go surfing and forget about blanks!

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The only blank I’ve seen that will stand up to that wave is from Huie, oh, and Greg Noll, but you gotta cut outlines with a chainsaw.

P.S.

Yeah great, don’t forget to drown from wearing a geek strap.

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The only blank I've seen that will stand up to that wave is from Huie!

Huie is amazing!

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Hey, wait a minute, isn’t that…Huie!!!

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Dog On Fire Hydrant

**ok what do yous want?? **

 

i think some one is pissing in someones pocket’    haaa

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Just joking around with ya. Keep up the good work…

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Nice recovery! A clarification was definitely in order for all the lemmings headed toward the cliff. Say no more!

This thread is probably getting better if you think about it:

MDI…soy…uniform cells…ideal foam for novice shapers and hobbyists prone to** overshaping. **

Becker once said the biggest problem in the industry was overshaping. If you are mean on decks, you’re  better off using MDI!

MDI…Mitch said: “good for Malibus (funshapes) and longboards”, and the comments on local glassing LB’s with 6/6 & 6 or 6/4 & 6 or whatnot yielded ‘durable boards with 2 yr. history’.

What’s the challenge? If you don’t like the color either do a foam stain with white (mix a little Q cell in there if ya want) or spray the board. This again isn’t a huge ordeal although production guys will bitch due to cost or extra time/labor. If you are coloring the boards, this isn’t even an issue anyway.

Ah.weight issue? Ice Nine has different weights, and I don’t think Ryan metioned if Malama does or not. Maybe he can lend some understanding for those who want to try the foam!

Accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative…that will get ALL of us further down the road!