Technology and Resistance to Innovation

[Darrell]

Hi, I’ve occasionally glanced at the forum over the years, but here’s my first post.

Let me introduce myself; my name is Darrell, I’m a mechanical engineer and I’ve been surfing for about 30 years now. I worked at the Channel Islands factory about 15-20 years ago and had the pleasure of helping them get their first milling machine up and running along with helping Al and the team “digitize” their shape portfolio. But the best part was helping different team riders develop their own boards and models. One memorable project was the deep-six project with Kelly. Since then I’ve moved to Switzerland and persued a career in eingineering. I also don’t get to surf nearly enough.

So the point of my thread is actually to discuss what developments and innovations have been made in surfing and why most of them don’t leave the ground. My experience has involved the shape, but not so much the construction methods. From my perspective there are two camps; the craftspeople and the industrialists. And I think both are creative and innovative. There are probably thousands of small craftsmen trying new techniques, but I suppose most of these ideas are not economically viable for the large scale production. On the other hand technology like Tuflite for example is possible to mass produce and offers advantages in quality and durability. So why doesn’t Surftech dominate the global market? I feel they have been able to hold down a niche market share. I also think the reason why their growth is limited, is because customization with their method is costly and because a good deal of surfers have stigmatized pop-out surfboards.

Over the years, the only advancement which has been widely accepted is the use of cnc machines and the use of eps with a divergence from the wooden stringer but instead a touch of carbon or composite stiffener materials.

Otherwise we saw things like Salomon’s S-core, and Incide, along with multiple different rail “parabolic” composite stringers. Most of these have been short lived. What do you guys think? Is Incide being used? If not, what happened? Are surfers for the most part satisfied with the state-of-the-art as it is today? Or do surfers and builders prioritize customized shapes and sizes over construction techniques?

What direction do you see innovations moving in the future? What about hollow laminating methods? Airinside is doing this with sail and foilboards; could we see this with surfboards? What other innovations are out there?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Cheers

[Huck]

Hello. Happy to chime in here, but full disclosure, I am not a pro, just a backyard hobbyist.

Its a big topic, and the title of the thread kinda carries the implication that there is a resistance in the surfing community to innovation and progress.

So yes, there has always been a resistance to innovation in any field, as new ideas can be difficult to digest, expensive to implement, or may outdate existing prototcols that would be expensive to alter or abandon. Early users of the thruster fin setup describe being laughed at on the way to the water. I remember riding a twin fin fish in the mid 70s in Ventura, and people asking me where the rest of my board was. So those are just examples of new ideas being hard to digest at first sight. Big Business has a history of squelching innovations that might be too expensive to implement profitably.

And make no mistake, the corporate / industrial aspect of making surfboards is all about the money. Its not about improving anything other than the bottom line.

Some ideas have been introduced to improve blank performance, but I don’t know how dramatic the results were, and there isn’t a huge margin in surfboard selling to finance expensive improvements that may impact retail cost and hence, sales, in a negative way. Surfboards don’t sell for a giant profit, and anything that raises the cost significantly will be met with resistance.

To circumvent this reality, the industry has turned to third world labor with little safety protections and countries with lax or nonexistent environmental protections.

Both craftspeople and the industry people are creative - craftspeople being creative in the areas of surfboard design, and industry people being creative in finding ways to exploit for profits. I can’t think of any design innovations that came from the industry, all that I am aware of came from surfers and tinkerers. I guess it may be said that the Shortboard Revolution came from within the industry, but at a time when the “industry” was composed of surfers and tinkerers.

Foil boards, tow-in boards, boogie boards, finless boards, stringerless boards, even compsand (i.e. SurfTech) have all originated from backyard madmen, and the ideas that are utilized by the industry were hijacked by the corporate entities. Even the thruster fin setup came from a surfer. And it may be noted that while the industry has made some big financial gains with these innovations, they have been diligent to credit and reward the designers with absolutely nothing.

As far as the future, I think the industry is wanting to move the technology in a direction of proprietary rights, similar to the direction of the auto industry: the only people allowed, authorized, or qualified to work on their product will be their own technicians.

I will use the softtop as an example of a product that is very difficult for a consumer to repair or work on, the industry loves this. In this case, the most viable option for many is to just buy another one. I see disposable-ness as an industry priority (other than SurfTech, who at least have seemed to make durability a priority). The current model of lightweight boards with minimal glass is great for repeat business.

I also see wavepools as a popular concept for making money off surfing, to own and charge for each wave has to be a corporate wet dream. Also maybe motorized “surfboards”, to reach a wider market. Flood the waters with people who can’t actually surf, but can buy expensive toys to motor around the lineup on.

For the backyarders, I see all kinds of ongoing innovation in channels, asymetricals, finless, wood surfboards, flex, stringerless, carbon fiber, and more. Just stuff creative people do cuz its fun and when you make your own boards you can do it.

Design and performance wise I think the foil boards are in the spotlight of innovation and breaking barriers.

But at the end of the day, for the majority of consumers surfboards are just water toys for having fun, so I think the idea of “progress” needs to be viewed in that context. Although admittedly, to the industry progress is measured in dollars. So you have to pick which definition you are discussing.

[PNW_CoolDad]

I’m not sure if you are a stab subscriber but the Stab Electric Acid Surfboard test w/ Dave Rastovich is fascinating - he’s promoting flax as a building material (6oz fiberglass overlaying 4oz flax on both top and bottom w/ EPS blank and stringer as described by Gary McNeil and apparently the result of many years of RnD). Dave claims he’s never broken a board and has ridden 3x of this construction for the last 8 years in very demanding environments (Indo etc). It may be a simple/old material and technique is the biggest innovation of the future.

[Darrell]

Hey Huck, great response! There’s a lot of insight there.

You are right to read in the implications I unintentionally implied there. I agree almost entirely with you on corporate intentions. I would also have to argue that the consumer has at least one hand on the steering wheel of the industry. As you say the current model is lightweight minimal glass boards. It’s great for repeat business, but that’s what the market wants. The majority of people want decent performance, preferably cheap, and they don’t care or realize that they’re buying new boards more often than they would, had they chosen a stronger construction method.

I would expect that the larger players would welcome innovation in order to stay competitive. They’ve grown and built reputations. But most industries need to continue improving and developing to stay viable. In my work experience, our customers demand better performance (“better” is in the eye of the beholder) AND lower costs. To me innovation for a product is: a new idea that offers improvement(s) either functionally, economically, or otherwise (environmentally). Wouldn’t that be a way to gain customers? I think many companies have tried new things over the years: S-core, Incide, Varial foam, countless others. But anything too far astray from the uninspired PU standard has little chance of survival.

Ultimately I guess it comes down to being just that: a toy for our hobbies. Like shoes- some folks like jogging and own a pair of running shoes, others take it so seriously they might own a pair of carbon plated shoes, but most of us just slide something on so our feet don’t get dirty and the rocks don’t hurt.

Cheers

PS PNW CoolDad, Thanks. I see there are small steps being made in terms of materials and robustness or environmental impact.

[stoneburner]

Ultimately it’s about profit. How much is wanted or needed —
item price minus final cost to get the product to market.
Higher price with fewer sold or large sales volume at a lower price.

In the long run, if a new technology tips the scales in favor of comparable or more profit (higher price, lower production costs, and/or higher sales volume), the innovation has a greater chance of acceptance/large-scale production. Otherwise the innovation will fade away.

For the DIY community, those factors are less important or non existent. And some new technologies attract niche markets and small cult followings that provide an income for a select few builders and designers.
Just my $0.02.

[Huck]

The idea of continual progress is OK, it has its place, but its not a necessity in every aspect of life and especially, recreation. Or maybe its just how we define it that I take exception with.

Yes we do have progress, in some ways, but we also have overcrowded spots with often hostile vibes, ocean pollution, restricted access to beaches, stressful lives that often rob us of our surfing time, etc. Very rare to find a pro or even a recreational surfer who designs and shapes their own boards, yet it was common at one time. Even retail surfboards used to be made by surfers, now they’re most often made in third world countries by corporate entities exploiting a cheap and oppressed labor market. Its not all so cool, so maybe it isn’t so much “progress” as we like to think. Just saying.

[Darrell]

customer: “so what’s this next board gonna cost me?”
stoneburner: “$20’000”
customer: “wow, that’s a whole lot more than my last one!”
stoneburner: “I know, but maybe you just don’t understand the economics behind it.”
customer: “well enlighten me please”
stoneburner: “well you see I NEED to charge that much, because my wife WANTS to go on vacation next summer.”

I’m sorry if my joke offends, I only wanted to make a point. No insult intended. And I agree with the rest of your statement.

Huck, I agree with you on many points. The broader industry has absolutely grown and progressed. My inquiry on progress for the sake of simplicity was mostly concerning technical advances which improve surfing performance, reduce costs, and reduce environmental impacts. I see plenty of small projects working toward environmentally friendly products. It’s the new zeitgeist (I too personally feel it is important) and… most companies will say anything they can to appear green, even if it is not true. However, I doubt that any piece of sports equipment will be able to affect how nice the locals are to you, and that list heads down a discussion on socioeconomics that I’m not able to keep up with.

So last question: what are the most advanced boards on the market now?

cheers

[Huck]

OK I think I get it now, technological advancement is the key to this conversation. Here are a few nominees.

That last one was a bit tongue in cheek. On the other hand, you did specifically mention environmental concerns, so looking to the opposite end of the spectrum I’ll submit this entrant in the environmentally friendly category…

[Huck]

And although its a few years old now, I would be remiss if I neglected to include Samsung’s digital surfboard

[Darrell]

I stand corrected- The surfing simulator where the pollution is all cleaned up, where trips to far away sandy beaches are cheap (no more jetlag), and best of all where the locals welcome you, respect you, and even cheer you into the biggest wave of the set.

Surfboards? Where we’re going we don’t need surfboards.

[Huck]

Franchise opportunities available now!!

And in my defense, I did also include a technologically advanced option for those who like to raw dog it out there in the actual ocean.

[Huck]

@Darrell

I doubt that any piece of sports equipment will be able to affect how nice the locals are to you, and that list heads down a discussion on socioeconomics that I’m not able to keep up with.

Just saying progress in the surfing world can be measured by a variety of metrics, and unless you specify what metrics you’re going with, the concept of “most advanced” will be all over the place, and most advanced in one category can fall wildly short in another.

[stoneburner]

Pretty sure you missed the point — or willfully evaded it.
Most businesses “need” a given profit margin to stay solvent and “want” a profit margin that gives them a decent income.
The price of surfboards has increased substantially over the last 2 decades.
And I agree with Huck. “Advanced relative to what?” The categories mentioned are frequently mutually exclusive.
Some people fly hang gliders and ultra-lights for recreation, others Lear jets (or their current equivalents).

No offense intended…

[Huck]

@Darrell

My inquiry on progress for the sake of simplicity was mostly concerning technical advances which improve surfing performance, reduce costs, and reduce environmental impacts.

In this regard, I think making your own boards can improve performance because each board can be specifically tailored to your individual circumstances, and it reduces both cost and environmental impact. Especially if you utilize your board making skills to keep up with repairs and maintenance, your boards will last many years longer than the average pro’s surfboards. Pro surfer Pat O’Connell says he goes through about 50 boards a year, and considers that on the low end of the spectrum.

[Huck]

@PNW_CoolDad

STAB–flax-construction1920×1076 153 KB

PNW - I couldn’t get the video to play, and wasn’t able to find it on YouTube, although I did find some videos of Rastovich and the 11 board quiver. Maybe that was the one? Anyway, I am surprised at hearing flax being structurally stronger than fiberglass. Did I understand that correctly?

In this regard, I think the compsand guys are really the most advanced in terms of a lightweight surfboard that is very strong and durable. The only thing holding me back from heading down that alley is the need for vacuum bagging.

[PNW_CoolDad]

Huck - sorry for the confusion - this was just a screenshot - you’d need the stab subscription to watch the video. The requirement for this year was all the boards had to incorporate flax in the construction to aid in the (presumptive) longevity of the surfboard and to encourage other board makers to incorporate this material to extend the life of their boards as well. As I understand it, some makers used flax under top sheet only and some used it top-and-bottom under fiberglass and some glassed only w/ a flax-basalt mixture. Just another manufacturing technique. I’m not familiar w/ compsand (composite sandwich? Is that like the Tufflite board manufacturing?)

[stoneburner]

WMD Surf Forum Part 1

WMD Surf Forum Part 2

WMD Surf Forum Part 3

[Huck]

Yes, compsand is composite sandwich - usually a very lightweight core with a skin of vacuum bagged wood (or composite) and fiberglass. There have been several threads on the subject in past years, and Bert Burger of Sunova was a big contributor.

This is the basis of SurfTech (Tuflite), Sunova, and Firewire Surfboards, and others (modern popouts) I’m not remembering right now. These boards are pushing the limits of a lightweight surfboard with a very tough skin.

Also I think EverySurfer here on Swaylocks was building some very durable boards awhile back with fiber mesh.

For me, a regular poly foam blank with fiberglass and epoxy resin has proven to last as long as I need. I have several boards over 10 years old, and going strong, they will probably outlive me. The problem for me has been the deck foam mashing underfoot over years of use, and I have gone back in a few cases and reinforced the deck, even adding a wood inlay in one case. My last board I just designed the wood deck inlay from the beginning, to circumvent the issue.

Dave Rastovich is probably the professional extension of what recreational soul surfing is all about, as he is not a pro in the World Surf League sense of the word. His boards are often retro, and his style might be called the same, but like Corey Colapinto, Rob Machado, Torren Martyn, and Joel Tudor, he has a very fluid and graceful style that strikes a chord with many.

But guys like Rastovich aren’t in the forefront of progressive surfing and progressive surfboard design. The current trend is airs and aerial flips and spins, which tend to be very hard on boards. And since most modern competition boards are already lightweight with minimal glass, the guys really pushing progressive surfboard design are destroying a lot of boards to push the limits of extremely high performance surfing in extreme conditions. Which is amazing to watch, but has little to do with the average surfer out at the average surf spot, at least here in So. Cal.

So when the O.P. talks about what is the most “advanced” surfboards today, I assume he is talking about the industry version, which has very little to do with what I do and what I seek to do when I go surfing, which is just to catch a few waves and have fun, on a surfboard designed to last for years.

[stoneburner]

@Huck

The problem for me has been the deck foam mashing underfoot over years of use

A layer of cork sheet between 2 layers of deck glass could make a big difference for deck compression dents/dings — significant impact absorption.

[resinhead1]

Surfers are cheap, they don’t want to pay for better designed built boards. If you are a builder like me, I take pride in my quality and performance. I build EPS, Compsand, parabolic stringers, stringerless, asym design, glass under, glass over, carbon fiber, Impact glass etc etc…even a few poly boards. I rode this thing through the collapse of Clark Foam. No one wants to pay for the extra effort (unless you are a well known brand). You can make a superior design, flex, and strength surfamabord, they are always going to be expensive adult pool toys that no one wants to pay more than $500-800$ Surfers don’t care about the technology, they just want a decent cheap surfboard. I’ve never leaned into this surfboard thing as a profession, keep your day job and keep surfboards as a hobby. The next breakthrough in surfboards will be the aerospace foams and lightweight composite exo skeletons…oh wait, that tech is already out there,never mind. We will just keep making foam glass boards from the same 1940 tech… I sound old…hey you kids get off my lawn!